Trueheart--<P>Thank you for you kind words and encouragement...I chickened out with your letter...we (I) started talking last night and the tenor of the converstation made me know that it would not be well received...so I'll save it for later.<P>Talked with MIL yesterday...she is very unhappy about the situation...we have a very good relationship and she always refers to me as her daughter (which can cause some confusion on the parts of people she works with who haven't met me, when they do---my H is Black and I am Causcasion--I have some amusing asides on that subject ) Anyway, I digress--As you know I was a little down yesterday and she is always asking for the pulse of what is going on.<P>I keep telling her you can't take the pulse---you can't know from one minute to the next what's going on, but she is so anxious about this...I gave her the update and then said--<BR><MIL> Let's be honest, if your son and I separate for real, how will my life be different? I still won't be able to depend upon him to pay bills. My lawn will still go uncut and uncared for. I will still be in charge of the house chores. The difference is that I won't have anyone to 'fight' with over these things or to 'expect' help from. Oh, and I guess my sex life will be nonexistent...That's it really. And, she, who knows her son, could not say anything.<P>So, I had a conversation with H as he left---which I have to stop because it is becoming an LB, I could tell by the look on his face and his body language---The only thing keeping him from coming home is his beliefs. He doesn't believe I have changed. He doesn't believe things will be different. He clings to my old patterns of behavior and tells me that I will not be different. <P>He uses me and his children as excuses--he can't get anything done around here. When he is in his 'room,' he can't think--he's figuring out who he is (can't do that around me), he is on Internet (I monopolize ours--and it is his opinion that I won't stop), he stays up all hours writing (and he thinks I will make him come to bed). <P>My H does have patterns that HE won't change...I came to the conclusion that that is the crux of it. When he's here at night he watches TV or sleeps (downstairs). He is paralyzed here. He is paralyzed around me. He can't notice the changes in me. I can't fight this.<P>Cali

{{{{Cali}}}}<P>I agree, now is not the time for that letter. This is not even fog anymore....it is plain old fear..fear of failure, fear of success, fear of commitment, fear of the unknown and you are right, he is paralyzed. Personally, I think it is time for you to give him an outright challenge...the way I do with athletes and students. I challenge them to *try it*. I challenge them to look at things from a different perspective than what they are using presently. And then, if they do, and it still doesn't work, then they are to present me with a plan that makes more sense than mine. A new option, if you will. <P>I think it is time to look him in the eyes and say...<BR>"Ok H, we have tried it your way. The result is that your getting better and better at fence sitting. You have mastered keeping me at an arms length and blaming me for things. You have decided that I have not changed, but you do not know that for fact, since you are only a visitor here now. I have let you make up the rules, and we are no closer to any solutions, and maybe further away than before. So, now, for the sake of our family, our marriage,and my sanity, here are the new rules...."<P>I am not sure, in your case, that he hasnt created, somewhat of a comfort zone, and doesn't want to change that. He has his safe haven and is *sort of* married and *sort of* on his own. He owns up to just enough of what happened that he can say he took responsibility for it, but now is *frozen* and doesn't have to make a decision and risk being wrong...again. So, if he is not willing to make a decision, you should not have to continue living with that decision. There is an old saying..."not making a decision, is making a decision". I believe that! If he is not *forced* or *coerced* into making any decisions, he wont. And he will get to stay right where he is, safe. I believe every situation is different, and in some cases there comes that gray area between Plan A and Plan B, and Plan B and total seperation, and each set of circumstances dictates what that BS will do. I hate to see you hanging and having each day be an energy depleting time for you. <P>I wish you luck, love, and support!! <P>Trueheart

Trueheart, I know you mean well (and may even be right) but I couldn't disagee more.<P>true..I think it is time to look him in the eyes and say...<BR>"Ok H, we have tried it your way. The result is that your getting better and better at fence sitting. You have mastered keeping me at an arms length and blaming me for things. You have decided that I have not changed, but you do not know that for fact, since you are only a visitor here now. I have let you make up the rules, and we are no closer to any solutions, and maybe further away than before. So, now, for the sake of our family, our marriage,and my sanity, here are the new rules...."<P>snl...First telling someone how they feel, think, judging them etc, is a no no no no no........"you have mastered ---",......."I have let you"... are HIGHLY inflammatory statments, essentially a declaration of war. If cali wishes to do something like this then it needs to be done about her, about boundaries etc. so H can "react" (as he wishes), but to tell him what he can or cannot do is confrontational, and in cali's case feeds the control issues she struggles with. IMO she is best served by counselling with the Harley's and following their advice on the plan a/b particulars.<P>

cali, I didn't know you were in a mixed marriage. That IMO means the potential for other issues unique to interracial (or intercultural etc.) circumstances may need to be considered. Some suggestions (in no particular order), that come to mind are..<P>1. He may have issues with whether a white woman could ever really love him for that reason alone.<P>2. He may have issues with whether he can love a while woman as well (sort of a betrayal to his racial identity thing, and as you know each racial community white and black exerts this kind of peer pressure/judgment on it's members).<P>3. Was the ow black? <P>4. Maybe he feels like you settled for him cause you did not marry another caucasian (related to thinking you love him, but a little different).<P>5. Further issues simply arising from the psychological impact of growing up a minority, which end up marital issues, but are really personal issues you can do nothing about.<P>6. External issues (not necessarily overt, can be subtle) from your enviroment that your marriage is not acceptable, wrong, evil....whatever.<P>and that is just a few. I wonder if there are any support groups, services that deal with interracial couples and possible issues.<P>6.

snl...<P>I suppose you are right, and I was trying to make it about her. I guess, and I could be wrong, I just feel her H is treating her like a doormat and expecting her to take whatever he gives her right now...<P>I have seen post after post by Cali, and all I see is her giving, giving in, letting him have his way. It is one thing to be in a fog about an A. I guess I don't believe, by his actions, he is still in that fog. I see him as manipulating a situation to create his own comfort with no regards to her. I am sorry if my approach seems confrontational or inflammatory (Im just an old football coach...LOL). It wasnt meant that way. It was meant more as a challenge, in a positive way, for him to move off the fence. So, again, my apologies for being aggressive. I am sorry. I meant well, I just got off the MB path for a bit. <P>Trueheart

yeah, you football coaches are all the same, drive for the goal line ......... wish life were so straightforward. Interestingly the harleys define themselves as coaches, so you are on the right track, just wrong sport. Cali is an articulate and reasonable person IMO, and it is annoying to see people (bs or ws) treated unfairly...... but then, that is what it is all about, if we didn't have "problems" we wouldn't need pychologists et al... and cali brings stuff to the table too. The interesting part about this site is getting the many different kinds of feedback, and reality checks. IMO the mere fact that anyone comes here and participates in good faith is a positive entry on their resume. Ultimately cali (and her H, and you, and I, and everyone) will do exactly what we want to do.....can only hope we make the "right" choices.

snl...<P>TOUCHDOWN!!!!!! (endzone dance!! )<P>Trueheart

Wow! Two of my favorites having a conversation without me.<BR>I am 'working' so I can't respond in full right now...<P>SnL: Race has not been an issue in our marriage...<P>More later,<P>Cali<BR>

Cali, <P>My dear, your H has personal issues that appear to be scaring him. In addition to the A thing. More on the plate than one should handle and him not knowing up from down. <P>About the interracial thing. It can have an effect on one's self esteem. I am oriental and H is cauasian. Yet I did not marry him for his blue eyes and blonde hair. I have learned to look past that and he knows it. Yet H was and is attracted to oriental women and OW is Chinese. So subtely it may have an effect. <P>Nonetheless, this issue is about him and him alone. Then he has an issue with you and his family. These are things both our H's need to work out. My H has a low self esteem issue. Yet he can look so good in crumbled clothes and me I have everything pressed nice and clean and still look like a ragamuffin. That does not stop me from going about my business. I have learned to do the best I can with what I have and be happy with it. H on the other hand is not happy with himself, so even if he 'looks' good he doesn't act or feel that way. Therein lies the low self-esteem bit and who do they take it out on? US!!!!<P>I hope one day you can share that letter with your H. Let him know that he is not alone in these feelings. No matter what your background, this low self-esteem stuff and A stuff knows no boundaries. It hits all and with no compassion. However, the hand to help him heal is being extended by all who care. You are the first hand to help and hold him back to recovery. Behind you are a slew of strangers, family, children and friends that want to welcome him back. <P>Please tell him we said hi.... just for starters. <P>L.<BR>

Okay...I have some time...<P>Trueheart and SnL: I can see both your points. Boundaries need to be set, not so much for me or my H, but for the children. Confusion, I believe, comes from H just moving in and out of 'our' house. He is here, but is not. We can rely on him and, we cannot.<P>And, as, SnL has said I cannot throw down the gauntlet...look what happened when the counselor did...If I force his hand, it will backfire...he will run faster and harder...<P>Part of my challenge is not trying to go so fast...I want everything fixed and I want it fixed NOW...I have to work on that <I> immediate gratification </I> thing .<P>As to race thing...it has never been a part of our relationship...I know that for some that would be hard to believe, but it is a nonissue...and for the record OW is white, as well. <P>snl: <I> 1. He may have issues with whether a white woman could ever really love him for that reason alone. </I><P>Nope. H has not dated black women since college...various reasons...Though I have wondered at OW's motivation...wondered if having a black lover was part of the attraction...<P><I>2. He may have issues with whether he can love a white woman as well (sort of a betrayal to his racial identity thing, and as you know each racial community white and black exerts this kind of peer pressure/judgment on it's members).</I><BR>Nope...he has other racial identity issues...more to do with middle class upbringing and the fact that both parents are also college educated...he is also 'lighter' colored and there are issues w/in black culture regarding this...he and his mom have both been accused of being 'sellouts' and 'not black enough' based on their use of proper English, etc. <P><I> 3. Was the ow black? </I> No. Funny how lots of people have asked me this...<P><I> 4. Maybe he feels like you settled for him cause you did not marry another caucasian (related to thinking you love him, but a little different). </I> <BR>No, more like he was my first and he has issues with me being a 'good' girl, the kind you marry (I was a 23 yr old virgin...)<P><I> 5. Further issues simply arising from the psychological impact of growing up a minority, which end up marital issues, but are really personal issues you can do nothing about. </I><P>Now this one I can buy, because I see what Trueheart referred to as Fear of Failure, Fear of Success, etc. It has been hard on him to have a college education, yet still have a hard time 'succeeding.' Race has been an issue with him with regard to career and success...HIS issue, ot mine.<P><I> 6. External issues (not necessarily overt, can be subtle) from your enviroment that your marriage is not acceptable, wrong, evil....whatever.<BR>and that is just a few. I wonder if there are any support groups, services that deal with interracial couples and possible issue </I><P>Part of the reason we live where we do is that interracial marriage is not even seen as odd. NONE of my friends have ever even mentioned it...in fact, we even associate with a few other couples who are also 'interracial.'<P>So, Trueheart, SnL, Orchid... I do believe FOG has more to do with his personal issues of being a man, feeling like a failure as a husband and father, and midlife crisis....and there is NOTHING that I can do about that except pray and know that God will work in his life...<P>Cali

Hey Cali...<BR>Leave me a spot in the prayer circle!! Ill say a couple of words!! Damn youre strong!! We teachers gotta stick together!!<P>{{{HUGGGGGGGGGGG}}}<P>Trueheart

Cali,<P>How are you doing tonight? I just posted in the 'superfriends' thread from mainemade about a title for you. Anyway, it might not be to your liking. Just wanted to put a smile on you. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P><BR>

Dear Cali,<P>I do not post often because I do not feel I have much to offer. You, however, have offered so much. You are incredibly strong. <P>I have been in your situation but did not, at the time, know it. My husband seems to be coming out of the fog. But we can never really know for sure, can we. It may just be another ride on the roller coaster.<P>I just wanted you to know that when I feel down, I remember your strength, I stop thinking about how hurt, angry and resentful I am, and say to myself, love just is. Thank you.<P>Newwoman

Cali, <P>How you doin this morning teach? Got the lesson plans for the day ready? Got your goals for yourself all set up to have a happy day? I know you are a successful teacher...your dedication, your love of life and children, your commitment to do what is right....your H is a lucky man!! "Those who can...teach!" Have a great day!!!!!<P>"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams!"<P>Trueheart

Orchid, NewWoman & Trueheart...<P>H and I were at a Parenting class last night (Parent Project--offered through Riverside County Mental Health--check in your area with your Mental Health, School District or Social Work offices to see if it is offered--it is a tremendous class!)<P>I will check out thread Orchid when I can get on GQII--I am going through a 'back door' to get in...(click on Active Topics!)<P>Newwoman--I read your post to Lupolady and was going to post to you...I am glad you read my posts...what you have written sounds like me --DON'T THINK YOU DON'T HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER...we all do and it's all valuable...Keep posting!<P>Trueheart--thanks for support. H and I are battling the Fog. One step forward and three steps back...I am actually on summer break--went to work the past two days to work on tutoring project for next year...the school I am at is 'underperforming' and 'at-risk' so we commit a lot of extra time to get 'stuff' done ...that and the principal is my best friend so I get drafted a lot .<P>I'll post update whenever I can get into GQII.<P>Cali<P>When I checked this post did not show up....must have been in fog....that is why the next reply exists .<p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited July 18, 2001).]

GRRRRRR....I couldn't get into GQII all day...I posted a reply but it did not show .<P>Orchid...I loved your superhero name for me . I also came up with a different name.<P>Newwoman...I read some of the stuff you have written and your thread w/ Lupolady and was going to post to you! Thanks so much for your compliments...But I take issue w/ your statement that you don't have much to offer...the teacher in me does NOT like to hear these things. We all have something to offer...that is why God put us here....I hope to see more posts from you.<P>Trueheart-this is summer break ...I am enjoying (ha ha) a day refereeing the boys.....I worked the past two days on a tutoring kit...I work at an underperforming (according to the state of California) at-risk school...so I put in a lot of extra hours...(also my best friend is the principal...so I get drafted a lot ). Thanks for all your encouragement...I am seeing progress....mostly in me and the way I react to H....<P>Cali