TNT,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is true you can pick your friends but you can't pick your family, but she is not my family and I will not treat her as such. As far as I feel, my husband's family is not my family either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From what I have seen, the only chance for having a happy second marriage when there are children involved is when the new spouse DOES accept that the ex is part of the family, and when they can at least tolerate each other. Of course this won't happen when either the ex or the new spouse feels threatened, which is one of the many reasons for not remarrying too soon. <P>I would imagine that feeling that your H's family is not your family would also put a terrible strain on your marriage. <BR> <BR>I must disagree that there is no common denominator once they are grown - I think there will always be a common denominator. I find your statement incredibly sad:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe I would talk to him if something happened to one of our children.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When my nephew was murdered, he had not seen his father in many, many years - but his father did come to the hospital and the funeral, and my sister did, of course, talk to him. I can't imagine not doing so in such circumstances. <P>My understanding was that your H's ex moved to MN when your youngest SD was 16. If she is 18 now, I'm not sure that would necessarily make her a "real" adult. Some 18 year olds are - one of my daughters is 18 and has an associates degree and is working out of state - but many 18 year olds are still in high school, and/or far from mature, independent adults, and can still benefit from having both their parents close by. <P>Unfortunately, I believe that if the only way you can feel safe is for there to be little or no contact with this ex-wife, then there is little hope for the marriage. Going through life avoiding conflict just doesn't work.

TnT,

TnT,<BR>I am sorry..I did not know all the family dynamics...<BR>WE would never disrespect BIL current W. But the other BIL wife we have not seen in 4 years (she has never seen my youngest) My MIL had a family BQ, when BIL Xgirlfriend popped by Unannounced (MIL and her were friends..MIL had taught HS for 30 years and lots of her Xstudents were friendly with her)...well SIL thought it was on purpose, and has NOT attended a family function since...she will NOT hear of it that it was purely coincedental. well we have not seen HIS kids (neither has MIL...she refuses to allow her to see her grandkids), nor her (which at this point ....we feel is really no loss...this woman has a masters in physics...you would think she could be rational)BIL has NEVER cheated on his wife...so there is NO reason for this...except control...and frankly BIL has confided..he will leave when the kids are a little older...he has not been happy for years..but he did want to make his marriage work...counseling did not work...because she told the counselor SHE was right and the counselor was wrong...and BIL was told by the counselor it was his choice..she does not think her controlling behavior is wrong....so he has been preparing for to leave...<BR>it is funny how X's have affects on people...she believes because his brothers cheated he will cheat ( they have been married 16 years and he has never cheated)...and because that believe is so strong...she is destroying their marriage. It is hard to trust you H after A..I know. But we need to eventually, in order to move forward. Your marriage was not a rebound...you have been married 11 years...rebounds dont last that long. Your H is where he wants to be, and he may be flattered by attention, but he needs to keep it in boundries. As far as the kids being grown..I agreed with the poster that said sometimes 18 y/o need both parents, that is a very difficult age. Good luck..and dont let her bother you ( I know it is hard) it gives her too much power....and I dont think it was right what they did at Xmas...that was very immature of H's family...dinner should have been held at a neutral place if she was going to be there so you felt comfortable attending if you wish to....Hope it works out...

MN huh? That's where I live! I live North of the cities. How about you? My ex and his girlfriend lived a couple of miles from us and I hated that. I can't imagine having them 4 houses down! We are now each about 20 minutes from our ex's and it's a much more comfortable fit. Our kids are close enough to the NCP to see them on a regular basis and we don't have to worry about seeing our ex's if we don't want to. First off, I do understand perfectly why your angry. Your husband is acting very disrespectful. I'll think about it a little more but I'd also like to share with you how it is for us. I was always close to my ex's family (he has 3 brothers that are married to wonderful women). Obviously when ex and I divorced my relationship with his family was strained. For the first two years of our divorce my ex chose to not see his kids at all (they were 6 and 9 at that time). Well if he didn't see them how on earth would his family get to see them if it wasn't through me? They started up contact and once my ex found out he "assumed" they were taking my side so he started disowning them right along with his kids. They told him that it wasn't about him and it wasn't about me, they wanted to be a part of our children's lives. For two years my relationship improved with his family while he avoided them. BUT, I never went to "family" functions at their home. I'd drop the kids off to attend them. We were and still are very polite to each other (his family and I)and our conversations were always about the kids only. Well after two years of them trying to get my ex to be apart of their family again and to start being a father to his kids he seems to finally be coming around. I truly believe my move 5 months ago putting the 20 minutes between us has helped in some weird way. When I lived really close to him his world revolved around me....harassing me. Now that I'm not so close and it isn't so easy he seems to be getting on with his life. So, I think your husband's ex is going overboard with her realtionship with her ex-inlaws. My husband co-parents well with his ex. Discussions about the kids ONLY. He don't hang at her home and she doesn't hang at ours. When it storms he CERTAINLY doesn't check on her. I remember going through a similar situation a couple of years ago. His ex was buying him gifts for X-mas, birthday etc.... Personal gifts not gifts from his kids. At first he didn't say a thing because confronting her might upset her and she always had the kids to put between them. Finally instead of being angry about it I sat him down and told him how I felt. He told her that he wasn't married to her anymore and that her gifts were inappropriate. If she had extra money to blow she should put it into a saving account for the kids. Two years later the only gifts coming out of her home to my our's is one's from his kido's. Anyhow, I'll think about this more and read some of your responses. But, please do NOT let her get under your skin. She's enjoying that one.

I accept the X is part of their kids family, but not ours. <P>Did I mention that SD announced on the 4th of July that another SIL is going to get X a job at the bank? Nevermind that we bank there. <P>Did I mention that last year SIL planned a karaoke evening to celebrate H birthday, H planned on me being a babysitter, failed to mention X was also invited - and I crashed the party and saw X there? H got stuck babysitting for his own party. I refused.<P>He told me that he needed to make sure X did not get job at bank. So, when SIL came over to watch a movie, I brought it up that she was going to try and get X a job there. He laughed it off and played it off like it was only me who had a problem with X working there. Tells me one thing, tells sister another. <P>I have no connections with my X. Our children have learned to have a SEPARATE relationship with their parents. I do not attend my X husbands family gatherings. I do not invite him to my family gatherings. If there is an occasion where we must be at the same gathering, I am not behaving in a way that indicates that there is an open door. I do not make everyone feel uncomfortable, but I do not "invite" X back into my life. <P>My husband, on the other hand, has not given his family or his X or his children that there is NOT an open door. His actions speak louder than his words. <P>I am not there for my X emotionally. If something happened to one of our children, I STILL would not be there for him emotionally, and I do not need him emotionally. I would not be cruel, or unkind. It is totally over between us, and if he doesn't have any strong emotional connections with any other human beings - that is his problem, not mine. He blew it with me many years ago, and I want zero to do with him. My children are not uncomfortable nor is my family with my decision. I think it helps them, as a matter of fact, because they know they must accept my husband and their new stepmothers, and if they can't they must behave in a respectful manner, regardless. <P>I feel VERY strongly about this, and I am sure that I will never feel any differently. When you forgive your X, it doesn't mean that you have to go back for seconds, or compromise your future or your happiness for who-ever. It means that you do not hold their affair against them. Divorce is divorce, it isn't half-way. <P>TnT

yep... I knew that you'd be still upset this morning. Take a breather... um.. well you shouldn't go outside and look at the sun.. its not good on the ole eyes. 8-)<P>I completely understand how you feel now and you have every right to SCREAM. Heck... wanna try scream relief? It helps sometimes.. although I can't do it with you, my employees would freak out. <P>If your alone... let one ripp.. just open your mouth.. take a deep breath and when your diaphram is fully expanded.. think of all your pain... and just Roar baby. <P>Do that a couple of times a day and you'll 1) be hoarse, and 2) gotton all of that bad energy out of ya.<P>Now go try it. I gotta sit on the sidelines on this one. Stars maybe... screaming outloud at work.. won't look good. <P>H2Y

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am not there for my X emotionally. If something happened to one of our children, I STILL would not be there for him emotionally, and I do not need him emotionally. I would not be cruel, or unkind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think not being there emotionally in a family emergency would be cruel. I can not imagine what it must be like to feel so cold and heartless toward someone you once loved. If that is what "getting on with your life" entails, I don't want to.

I'm amazed that there are posts defending the X in this situation. It's not that I think that the X should (just by being an X) should be out of the picture completely, but your X is in YOUR FACE.<P>I think that she is being disrespectful to you by intruding so extremely into your day to day life. Even if the kids were small, I'd still say 4 doors away is pushing it just a tad. However, these kids are adults now. Telephone calls with the X would be appropriate now, when there is something to discuss about the kids (university, weddings, new baby etc.)...and of course, there will be important dates in the lives of the children where both your H and the X would be together. That is normal. But what you've described is far from normal.<P>Your husband also is being a cad to you. To lie about where he is going, and end up at her home, time and time again. That to me is VERY suspicious. If he uses the excuse "we're friends", it is okay to be "friendly" with an ex-spouse, but to have a friendship, that clearly excludes his wife, is not a friendship, but a conspiracy of sorts.<P>It is not evident whether his family is in on this colusion with the X. If they are, then they too are being very nasty to you.<P>Get counselling on this matter....with him in hand. He needs clarity. I do not see this as a jealous wife situation, I see this as complete and total disregard for your feelings. I would not take it anymore.<P>I hope you are able to make things change.

TnT,<P>Good morning. Any new developments? I agree with Janet on this the more I get use to putting my counselor hat back on. Janet is right on the money here. ^5 Janet. Of course you were correct the whole time TnT. Sorry it took me a moment (days) to get through that, evaluate it and make my final decision. <P>Thank you Janet for helping out.<P>H2Y

TNT--I mostly wanted to say hi, even though I'm late on your thread. We don't have any X's so I don't have any practical advice. The only thing at all that is coming to my mind is "love your neighbor as yourself" and "pray for your enemy". A "nice", King David warrior psalm, I think he prayed, among other things, that dogs would eat his enemies, but left the commission of what to do up to God... .<P>Hugs to you TNT.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Ya know TnT,<P>The whole thing sucks. <P>How's that for understanding?<P>I hate that we have to deal with ex's at all... any of us. I never in a million years thought I would have to do it, and I hate it. <P>I treat my ex with as much love and respect as I can, because, despite everything, I care. If he were broken down somewhere, I would go get him. I would hope he'd do the same for me.<P>I treat my H's ex with as much love and respect as I can, because she's the mother of my H's children, and I once liked her very much and try to remember that. I would expect my H to go get her if she broke down, and vise-versa.<P>No, we're not all "one big happy family" and I don't think it's suppose to be that way, but we do make an effort to get along, especially for the sake of the children.<P>That said, I wish I didn't have to deal with it at all. I am so sick of the "show" aspect of it all. Yes, there is an underlying "care" for both ex's, but it would be "easier" if we could just cut off that life with a sharp knife. It will never happen, however.<P>I feel for you -- BIG TIME -- because of situations like the party you crashed. It isn't HONEST. That's the problem there. My H and I understand that the ex's will have an influence, and work within a set boundary that we have set. There are no SURPRISES. With your situation, it's ALWAYS a surprise somehow. I think that's the diff, don't you?<P>I am sending you strength and good wishes (and some big hugs too)...<P>Sheryl

This has been kind of a scarry thread to read, as a soon to be X. I told my H in my goodbye letter(haven't given it to him yet) that I didn't want to be known as the X, it was like when you use X-mas you take Christ out of Christmas that he couldn't take me out of his life. <P>I may have to re think that. I do know that I have a better understanding of my place as an X now. (Still not what I want to be)I will have to work hard to be a good X, and guarnteed I will do it much grace and dignity, just like I have used to deal with the last 6 months. It's a very narrow path taking the high ground, but keeps you on your toes.<P>Thanks to all for the insight. Dawn

Thanks for all the replies.<P>Nellie, I certainly didn't want to make you feel bad. That is not my intention. I know you would like to have a stronger connection with your X than you have. I am re-married, and so is my X. There is nothing that we need to share anymore. There will be marriages, grandchildren, and all of that, unavoidable times of contact - which call for civility, respect - but absolutely nothing more. I do not want any emotional connection with him - nothing. I do not wish him any harm, either. I want to continue being on opposite ends of the country and having NO contact. I and my children are much happier that way. They maintain contact with their father, and I am not interested in their contact or the part of their life with their father and his family that excludes me. I am happy to be excluded. I know that is not what you want, and you never wanted to be divorced. Your X unfortunately excluded his children as well, and that is unfortunate. I would feel the same way that you do if my X excluded my children and caused them emotional suffering. My X hasn't done that with my kids that I know of. And if he did, there would be nothing that I could do about it.<P>My husbands X wants to re-write the definition of divorce, family and re-marriage, apparently! Geez. And my husband isn't smart enough to recognize it! Boundaries? He does not know what they are concerning his kids, his family or - I guess his X!<P>Hang in there Nellie, you are all your kids have.<BR>TnT

I agree with Sheryl that a big part of the problem is lack of honesty on your H's part. I would hope that if I ever remarried someone who was divorced (not that remarrying is likely), that I would be fine with my H having a friendship with his ex, but I would certainly expect him to be honest about it. My H had a good friend who was female a number of years ago, and I never had a problem with that, but he didn't hide the friendship. <P>Much of our children's relationship with their father has always been mediated through me. He was more than willing to do things with the kids, but he was never much of a conversationalist, to put it mildly. I was the one who kept him up to date on what the kids were doing, their needs, problems, etc, and I still do. As a matter of fact that is pretty much mandated in the separation agreement. As a parent I am sure you are familiar with how difficult it can sometimes be to get your kids to share information - whence the "What did you do at school today?" "Nothing." routine. If they were not great at sharing information with their father before, they are even worse now, since he has become something of a stranger to them. <P>I don't really see any downside to remaining friends with an ex-spouse. It is best for the children, it makes co-parenting more effective, and it is a whole lot less stressful and more pleasant for the ex-spouses. It seems to me that it is best for everyone, except possibly a new spouse. <P>As an aside, why is it that you don't often see second H's complaining about their wives remaining friendly with their ex's, I wonder?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>As an aside, why is it that you don't often see second H's complaining about their wives remaining friendly with their ex's, I wonder?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is such an interesting question. <P>I am sitting here, and thinking about how my H goes out of his way to be accomodating when I see my kids or need to talk to my ex... <P>...and how my H's ex's H (sheesh!) does the same with him. He leaves my H and his ex alone to discuss the children, no big deal. <P>Not me -- I wanna be *right there* you know? Or I ask my H very soon after a meeting what happened. <P>I've been careful to make sure I don't interfere (unless asked or it directly relates to me), because I really do believe there is a way to keep the parenting (between Mom and Dad) intact, despite some pretty big obstacles. <P>We've done birthday parties together with his ex and her H, and one "family" meeting about his son. It's not easy, but we do it. Now, in fairness, his children are younger, so it's of paramount importance. <P>My kids are older, and it's more important at this juncture to let them know we all get along fine *in case* we need to chat about something. My kids know that if dad or I need to talk about something they don't need to be afraid -- and in the past it wasn't like that. I'm happy it's gotten better. <P>But this is such a good question. What do you think, Nellie? Jealousy? You think it's truly a gender thing???<P>

Sheryl,<P>I do think it is a gender thing, but I am not sure what the explanation is. Are men less jealous than women, at least when it comes to the possibility of an solely emotional attachment to a third party? Is this why men are supposedly more bothered by the thought of their wife having sex with another man, while women are supposedly more bothered by the emotional aspect of their H's affairs?

Hey Nellie, <P>I'm hanging out since my H is working late... I don't live here, honest. <P>I think you're right. Once you mentioned the "emotional" affair vs. the "physical" affair for men, you had me.<P>So yeah, we can agree that in THAT respect there is TRULY a gender bias. <P>But about the jealousy... hmmm... it makes a kind of sense, but... can't put my finger on it, but why are there some women who really have a HORRIBLE time with it, and some who really seem to sail on through? That points to a personality deficit, or perhaps a self-esteem problem... or, of course, a problem with trust (like in the case of <B>TnT</B>, and rightfully so, I might add). But men can have all those problems too... <P>I honestly don't know. But you're so right... you absolutely don't see men on these boards complaining about how much time their wives spend with ex-H's. <P>Also, as an aside, I think there's just way more women on this site, and it figures, because we're more likely to seek help. Then again, I just stereotyped women... <P>Really interesting question though.<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 20, 2001).]

When the kids need "co-parenting", yes - there are reasons why there needs to be communication, contact, etc. But when the kids are out on their own, the kids are used as an excuse to maintain contact - in this case.<P>I mean c'mon... His X moved 2000 miles... She was 'losing' contact because kids were growing up - could she have moved here to find a way to maintain contact? By the way - while she was marrried and for many years after their divorce - she never had contact with H's family. Why now? <P>

maybe her marriage is on the rocks.. and maybe your H has communicated the troubled waters in yours?? just a guess.