I have a few general questions:<P>1. After an A is exposed, is it common for the WS to start asking for a D? If so, why?<P>2. When faced with considerable proof, why do WS's continue to deny the A? Is it to keep from facing the reality of what they've done? Is it to spare us any more pain? <P>3. Can recovery begin without WS admitting the A?<P>4. What are the most common signs/symptoms of withdrawal or guilt?<P>5. When the BS shows sincere changes and eliminates LB's, does this sometimes anger the WS's (i.e. their justification for the A is gone)?<P>I probably know the answers to these questions, I'm just looking for feedback from some veterans. I'm still a rookie. <P>sad dad

With expert questions like that, I can't buy into "you're still a rookie."<P>Rather than answer each question, I'll take a stab at answering them all with an explanation....<P>During an affair, we like to call it the fog - and there is a scientific answer to that... Certain chemical reactions are happening in a new relationship. Those chemicals give a high, and numb certain parts of our more reasoning area of the brain - and cause the WS to make the most stupidist choices. They are living for the high, the feeling that they get chemically from the relationship. As the relationship continues - the highs get less and less. Sanity at some point begins to surface. <P>They (WS) will do the most inconsiderate and out of character and stupid things. Think of a heroin addict. Look what drugs do to most people. Same thing with a WS.

Oh, and by the way....<P>Think about a legislature in office (president, mayor or congressman...) They are in the "fog" of an affair(s), and they are making LEGISLATIVE DECISIONS for all of us?????? <P>VOTE 'em out and send a message to this country that we want infidelity to be so 'taboo' that it is unheard of again.<P>(sorry, I'm overly zealous and a little excited tonight. I'll be back to normal tomorrow.)

<P>1. After an A is exposed, is it common for the WS to start asking for a D? If so, why?<P>A. It's not uncommon. Why, better to run than to confront the truth. They probably have the revisionist history thing going to the point of saying the marriage was over long before the affair and the affair is not really a problem.<P>2. When faced with considerable proof, why do WS's continue to deny the A? Is it to keep from facing the reality of what they've done? Is it to spare us any more pain? <P>A. A little of both and more.<P>3. Can recovery begin without WS admitting the A?<P>A. Not in my book or the MB principles.<P>4. What are the most common signs/symptoms of withdrawal or guilt?<BR>A. Withdraw looked like severe depression in my house. Guilt… never saw a bit<P>5. When the BS shows sincere changes and eliminates LB's, does this sometimes anger the WS's (i.e. their justification for the A is gone)?<BR>A. Absolutely true in my house. The LB's were molehills made into mountains. When they disappeared then she just became more bitter and depressed. Didn’t stop her from wanting to blame me for everything, but it made those discussions harder for her to justify her affair.<P>

Hi sad dad- I hope I can share what I have found out- IT IS more common for the WS to ask for a D than the BS- I saw that statistic in many books about affairs. You would think it would be the other way around. But some spouses are so caught up in their A they have rationalized that 'the marriage was over in their head' before the A - thats exactly what my H told me after he confessed.I think they do get pressure from the OP often to divorce too- I know that was a big factor in our case.Also my H told me- I know you could never forgive me so I"ll be leaving you- that showed how he felt D was the only solution to his problems. #2- My H denied the A the first time I confronted him directly about it. However he did try to end it after he knew I was 'on to him.' The following month though I confronted him again and he finally did confess. I asked him point blank if he was involved with someone and gave a long list of reasons why I thought so.Not the least of which was he quit kissing me or touching me for several months before confessing. #3- I dont think so- its hard enough even if they DO admit to it since they usually dont end it once and for all after confession. My H broke it off then went back to OW at least 5- 6 times before making a complete break- and the final break wasnt till 4 mo past d-day. #4- similar to fog symptoms so its hard to be sure if they are in withdrawal- in my H's case he was testy, depressed, slept on couch some nights in bed other nights , sometimes came to me saying our marriage was 'hopeless' that he couldnt kiss me because he didnt have his feelings back for me.'On and off said he wanted a divorce- even filed but cancelled later. Also he avoided talking to me as much as possible. This phase lasted about 2 mo past last contact with OW. #5- yes when you change alot the WS is even MORE confused and wonders if the changes will last and if youre sincere- thats what my H told me after we decided to reconcile. He at first didnt like my treating him kindly and trying to meet his needs but I kept at it and eventually he began to LOVE it! We are 5 mo past d-day ion marriage counseling to correct a power imbalance in our marriage and doing well. lifeismessy

<BR><B>1. After an A is exposed, is it common for the WS to start asking for a D? If so, why? </B><BR><I> yes...because they think they have screwed up so badly...that trust can't be rebuilt...that they have something so wonderful w/someone new that it MUST be right and true love....</I><P><B>2. When faced with considerable proof, why do WS's continue to deny the A? Is it to keep from facing the reality of what they've done? Is it to spare us any more pain? </B><BR><I> yes....at least that's what my H has said...</I><P><B>3. Can recovery begin without WS admitting the A? </B><BR><I> I'll defer to experts, I think the Harley's say no...and I would agree </I><P><B>4. What are the most common signs/symptoms of withdrawal or guilt? </B><BR><I> anger, depression, moping, crying...inability to make decisions...waffling...</I><P><B>5. When the BS shows sincere changes and eliminates LB's, does this sometimes anger the WS's (i.e. their justification for the A is gone)?</B><BR><I>YOU BET...They will also deny that changes have occurred or will say that changes can't or won't last...WS doesn't trust you and will latch on to the smallest behavior to prove you haven't changed. </I><P>Hope this helps,<P>Cali<P>

Thanks all of you. Pretty much the answers I expected. I give my reasons for asking these questions:<P>1. My W told me she was unhappy about 8 months ago, and gave me several reasons why, mostly LB's on my part (angry outbursts & disrespectful judgements). She never mentioned D until A was exposed and she discovered my "proof" (about 2 months ago). She has continued to bring it up and I have told her that I don't want a D, I'd like to work on our marriage, but if this is what she feels she needs to do than she will have to do it on her own. She wanted me to help her with it, probably so I could relieve some of the guilt.<P>2. I have tape recordings of her talking to close friends and OM. Heard her tell OM she is in love with him. I never told her about tapes, she found out about them on her own.<BR>She claims she knew I was taping her and said the things she did to catch me spying. I don't buy it. If she knew, she would have looked for the recorder or not said anything to incriminate herself. I have other proof, but haven't told her about it because it seemed pointless. She knows what she's doing and won't admit anything until she wants to. Telling her won't change anything.<P>3. She hasn't admitted A, probably won't until we are well on our way to recovery, which at this point looks doubtful.<P>4. After A was exposed, my W cried alot, missed some work, seemed depressed. That has subsided, but she still has days where she is very moody and irritable. She stopped wearing wedding ring a month ago and has been sleeping on the couch the last 2 weeks.<P>5. I began making the necessary changes in myself 8 months ago, long before I suspected anything. Angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements are a thing of the past. My W has acknowledged these changes, but has mentioned several times she is "waiting for the other shoe to fall". She doesn't believe or want to believe the changes are permanent. I have been kind, patient and composed since the A was exposed, plan A'ing all the way. She's probably baffled by that, not the reaction she expected I suspect.<P>sad dad<P> <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 18, 2001).]

I think recovery can begin even though there is still a lot of denial. The recovery begins when we decide that we want it to work, initiate changes in our behavior, and notice that our behavior changes affect the relationship changes.<P>You said you have eliminated lovebusters - but what other changes have you made? <P>Once you have made the discovery, it is really pointless to continue to gather proof. You may think that it may help bring the affair out in the open, but sometimes that is a moot point - and I know that isn't a typical "harley response", but it is a response common to us that employed pre-disclosure plan A techniques.<P>Pre-Disclosure Plan A is when you decide that it was an affair, and you have decided to restore your marriage with or without your spouses cooperation. <P>Keep your conversations light-hearted, fun, and try to see what emotional needs your wife has and fill what she will allow you to fill. In the meantime, keep looking forward and not backward. <P>TnT

TnT,<P>In addition to eliminating LB's, I no longer let emotions dictate my behavior. I am much more patient and even-keeled. The little things don't bother me any more, you know "don't sweat the small stuff".<P>As far as gathering more proof, I haven't done that. Once I had enough info to confront her, I stopped looking for more. I had more proof than what I confronted her with, but I kept that to myself because as you said, the point is moot. My desire for her to "come clean" is for her sake, not mine. I really don't care to know anymore than I do, however I wonder if admitting the A will allow her to purge her conscience and begin to heal.<P>I have been trying to keep our conversations light-hearted and fun, nothing serious, no relationship talk. I haven't brought up OM since I confronted her. I'm trying to build up a "safe zone" for her. <P>I'm much more interested in building a future. I want to learn from the past and move on. Right now I'm in limbo, the ball's in her court. <P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 19, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad dad:<BR><B>In addition to eliminating LB's, I no longer let emotions dictate my behavior. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that is so AWESOME and I just wanted to tell you so! Keep up the good work!

sad - I can't add anything to what has already been said as a BS. Based on what I've read from former WSs, I think they would pretty much agree with these answers.<P>You're no rookie anymore. Your situation and mine are quite similar. Mine is similar to Rick37's. His is similar to...., well, you get it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad dad:<BR><B>She claims she knew I was taping her and said the things she did to catch me spying.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>HA!!! Proof positive that alien abductions are REAL!!!!<P>WAT

saddad- I posted to you last night but just wanted to add that my H also tried to get me angry and get me to the point of filing for D on him so HE wouldnt have it on his conscience. I refused. When he angered me I would leave the house and do something for myself. Also I spent alot of time talking to my pastor and building up my spiritual strength.I refused to discuss D with my H since he knows I am completely against raising our 3 kids in a broken home. Told him I would contest it all and that he would have to file and he would tell our kids not me. I think the thing that really got him off the fence was when I told him if he divorced me against my will I would go for main custody and move to another state and start my whole life over. ( we moved to our current state a year ago due to his job promotions so I have no relatives here). I think this angered him at first but when it sunk in boy did it affect him. Anyway I just wanted to say to stick to what YOU believe in and dont back down. Fortify your mind with positive influences. I read alot too. Hope for the Separated by Chapman is encouraging. ( I know youre in the same house still but we lived like that too) I had to quit trying to force my H out of the fog and withdrawal and let him have the time and space to work out his own dilemmas. Take care- lifeismessy

sad- the situation with my wife is similar. She is having an EA with a former coworker who left her place of business and has since started working at a similar business not too far away. The OM pages her just about every day and then she returns calls on cell phone. I found out about A about three months ago and confronted her about it. She of course denied it and said they were just friends. She says that we have been having trouble for years which we have. I have tried to make some positive changes but get no feedback. I really don't expect any though and have come to accept this fact. She also picks at little things that are normally overlooked in a marriage. justplaincali hit it right on the head when describing the WS as being moody,angry,moping,depressed, etc. I am getting the brunt of all this. Once the A is discovered it is probably not necessary to continue to look for signs. I feel though, that it may indicate to the WS that by not doing anything, the BS is condoning the action. I have not brought up the EA for a while and it is still going on. I am having a really hard time letting this A ride itself out. I have done a lot of praying and reading. We are trying to get into counseling but its been a hit and miss thing. Be patient and let God do his will. Good luck!<P>Golfer

About a month ago my W was in Vegas with her sisters. Her cellphone bill arrived yesterday and the roaming charges & long distance calls were listed (her local itemized calls are no longer listed, at her request). I noticed there were no calls to OM or her work voice mail (that was their method of contacting each other). Only calls home or to my cell phone. I'm not going to read too much into this, but I was surprised.<P>sad dad

sad - yea, don't jump to conclusions about the cell bill. She may be on to this paper trail. They seem to get smarter as they go in keeping things secret.<P>WAT

I would agree with WAT, you are definitely no rookie, and you are doing it right... <P>It is true, until she acknowledges the entire truth her full healing will not happen, but you can restore your relationship with her - you can be the 'healing' 'healthy' one.<P>Keep up the awesome wonderful work. You get the plan A award of the day!<P>TnT

WAT,<P>I know you're right about the cell bill. But, it may be a small glimmer of hope.<P>TnT,<P>Thanks for the kind words. It's the encouragement and sucsess stories I read here that keep me focused. The more I read (here and in books) the more I believe my W is the textbook WS. My friends and family are amazed that I've been able to keep it together this long. They've all told me to let go and get on with my life, but I am confident that the way I'm handling this gives me the best chance to save my marriage, I just wish I could see some light at the end of the tunnel. I know this is a long journey.<P>sad dad

saddad - my situation is similar to yours, see General Questions II Devastated. I made the huge mistake of bringing "us" up in conversations that were otherwise going great. She said this pushes her farther away and that I haven't changed that I'm still trying to control the situation, LB's no no. I kind of had two d-day's one on 6-11 when I followed her to a park and caught her w/ the OM and then on 6-24 when a gained a video tape of her and him making love. Believe me this was my worst nightmare. She stopped wearing the engagement ring after 6-11 and stayed away one week then came back and 6-24 happened. After that day she has moved in w/ her parents and has stopped wearing all wedding rings. I sent a letter with a copy of a lawsuit for Aleination of AFfection (NC LAW) to the OM in hopes that it might change his mind. He's a doctor with a wife and two little girls, alot to lose. His wife has yet to find out. I'm afraid that if I tell her my W might go farther in her shell. I'm not sure if the A has stopped b/c I have checked cell phone bills and she has still paged him. She has seen me following her (irrational LB nono) this past weekend. I finally discovered this site and have started PLAN A. I hope that this helps, I started to communicate w/ her via email and even talked on the phone for about 20 min. Tues night but not about "us" I'm sure the EN I need to meet are Affection and Conversation, everything else is good, I ccan work on family a little more. I pray for you SD and I would recommened you finding what you need through Christ. He has helped give me the patience, desire, self-control and strenght to go forward with Plan A even though she has left me. I have strong hopes of restoring my marriage and I truly feel that God wants to to work, you have to trust in him. <BR>Proverbs 16: 32-33 It is better to be patient than powerful; it is better to have self-control than to conquer a city. We may throw the dice but the Lord determines how they fall.<P>Let me give you one last anaolgy for Plan A. Turtle<BR>If you continue to poke and prod a turtle, it will never come out of it's shell. If you create an environement for it to come out it will. You have to create an environement of love, comfort, affection and conversation for her to come out. Trust in the lord and show her your love and she cannot resist. Time, I pray for you

Sad Dad,<P> I would like to give you a little bit of devils advocate advise here. Please do not read into it that there is no hope. Knowledge is power and allows you to control your emotions and actions. I think that before I would stop proof gathering I would sit down with a Divorce Lawyer for 1/2 or hour, on a non-retainer basis to get an understanding of the laws in your state. In some states the evidence or proof is an important factor. Others it is not. Not saying you will need it at all, but you don’t know right now.<P> At least you be as well versed in "non-reconciliation" as you are in MB recovery. The only real problem with this avenue is the nagging question of "do I tell her?" of my meeting with the lawyer. I chose to tell because it was the truth and also my wife had been spouting about divorce legalities at the time.<P> For now quit confronting her with your proof. No need to give away what you know and it will more than likely send her to more un-documentable avenues.<P> Last but not least…Give your proof to a trusted friend or family member for safekeeping. Do not give it to the lawyer unless you plan on filing. As others have said here "no need to keep going over it"<P> Regarding the cell phone bill….Don’t read much into that..Pay phones, calling cards and voice mail pagers are quite easy to hide. If you search in the read only posts for "snoop" you can find hundreds ideas and suggestions for documentation. <P><BR>Good luck,<BR>Mike<P><BR>

gdc,<P>I did read your post earlier today. What you saw on that video tape was devastating, but you need to let it go, as hard as that may be. I suggest you leave your W alone for awhile, don't ignore her, but give her some space. Stop tailing her, spying, etc. She knows you know, and worse yet she knows what she's done. She's running away because she's not ready to deal with it. Your analogy to the turtle is good advice for both of us. We need to make them feel safe. I have not mentioned OM or the A since the day I confronted her. <P>Hi Infidelity,<P>I have stopped the proof gathering. I had more than I needed when I confronted her. In fact, when I did confront her I revealed very little of what I know. I gave her just enough info to let her know that I knew. She found out about the tape recorder by going through some emails I neglected to erase. I've kept the rest to myself. I have no intention of using this proof in any D proceedings. I don't want a D, in fact if she files I will probably contest it.<P>I have spoken to a lawyer just to get some general questions answered. I didn't tell my W, but she found a piece of paper with the lawyer's name, adress and date of my appointment. I plan on meeting with the lawyer again since it appears my W will file soon.<P>If I have given the impression that I'm still gathering proof, that's not the case. I looked over her cell phone bill because it was higher than usual and I thought there might be a mistake. I don't need any more proof. I'm well aware that she's probably gotten very good at covering her tracks and that the A won't be over until she or OM decide to end it. <P>sad dad<P> <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 19, 2001).]