My W sees her C on Thursday.<P>My WS, W has expressed confusion as to what her therapist has recommended in terms of her telling me about her daily activities. She has stated he said that she did not have to tell me about everything if she did not want to. I asked if she was sure & that maybe he was referring to her past history or the counseling session. She asked me to put in writing my question & she is going to clarify it with him. Before I present this to her I am looking for any suggestions as to if this seems reasonable & not overly judgmental or harsh towards her rightful self image.<P>Historical perspectives:<P>I discovered my W was involved in an affair(s) with two men that went from 07-20-00 to the discover day of 01-17-01. About twenty years I had discovered an affair she had supposed with sales person that called on the retail store where she worked then. At that time I did not get many details, except that she supposedly met this person in a motel two times. The most recent event happened in our home as well as motel room.<BR>Current issue (note to wife & therapist):<P> A Dr. Harley (He is a Therapist who specializes in enhancing marital relationship & has a website called “Marriage Builders”) writes about the importance of openness & honesty in a relationship / marriage. It is my perception that for a couple to develop a truly caring, loving, trusting & intimate relationship, it is important that each other be completely open & honest about themselves with each other. This concept seems very logical to me, to make an extreme example, we would not expect a good relationship built on secrets and/or deceptions.. Ideally, this sharing would include specific events of their lives as well as their inner thoughts, hopes, dreams & aspiration, past, current & future. <P>This would be the ideal situation & I fully realize that for this to occur each person has have to have the utmost confidence & trust in the other that this information is safe & would not be used to hurt or harm the other person – emotionally. In this ideal relationship there would be virtually “no secrets.” I realize there are probably many, many couples that do not have this kind of ideal relationship of intimacy. I further understand that my description of this the ideal relationship may never be achieved in this particular situation, but that it is my objective to at least try to do everything in my power to at least improve Cindy & My relationship. I have to take some responsibility in all this, I cannot expect for this to just happen, I would expect there needs to be some work from both parties to achieve something new & different. If it has not happened over a period of 30 years for example, I understand it is not realistic to expect that all of a sudden it’s going to happen say in 6 months.<P>I have read that the degree to which someone has a feeling of intimacy is determined (or at least there is a direct correlation) by the couples ability to share, & the corresponding knowledge each person has of the other. It makes sense to me that the more knowledge a person has about the other, the more likely there are some feelings of intimacy, particularly when the knowledge is potentially sensitive and personal – it may be the utmost measure of trusting relationship. The more two people share about each other & the more someone knows about the other, there is a relationship or degree of intimacy exists. This makes a lot of sense to me at least. <P>I understand that the soundness of a relationship is the responsibility of both parties. I have been hurt & it would be natural to assume that I have some resentment from this & I have to admit that this is an issue I am questioning myself about. This would naturally create an issue of trust & I may not have earned that kind of trust at this point, which would be understandable. I also have an appreciation that I may not completely understand all the motives of certain actions, present or past. I do believe that trust has to be EARNED by a demonstration of certain attitudes & actions & trust is something that is critical for the success of a relationship but it cannot just be assumed or demanded, it must be earned. I can accept the fact that I have not necessarily earned that level of trust for Cindy to feel comfortable in sharing many parts of her past, & I understand & accept this. In terms of my feelings of trust, if we measured trust on a scale of from 1 to 10 and ten was the best, my discovered of the affair created a big feeling of loss of trust, probably a minus 10. I am trying really hard to re-establish this feeling of trust.<P>I fully understand the importance of & I am very willing to respect the privacy of conversations between Cindy & her therapist. If I happen to ask a question that infringes upon that confidentiality I want to be clear that I need only be reminded of this pact & will respect this understanding.<P>Having said all of this, it is important for me to have a clear understanding that both Cindy & I are to be completely honest & open with each other about our current activities. I will freely admit that at this moment in time I have some insecurity about our relationship. What I thought were indications of a trusting, monogamous relationship before, were in retrospect, not accurate & I sometimes question my own instincts to measure this. Regardless of how innocent it may seem, at this time at least I am very uncomfortable with what may seem like hidden agenda’s or activities that are not to be shared with me – this appears to me to be little “secrets” & I am not comfortable about this. At this time, I cannot think of any activity that Cindy should not tell me about or keep as a secret from me. To me this would bread an environment that there are only certain things I could ask & that she had certain things about her current activity that she could rightfully keep confidential to me. In my humble opinion, this is not a good foundation for establishing a trusting relationship. <P>From my perspective at least, the more open we are about our plans & activities and the more open we are about questions regarding our activities, the more likely a trusting relationship will be established. To be defensive or guarded with questions from my perspective at least breads the feelings that the person places a big value on not telling all & this is not healthy (in my opinion) in establishing a trusting relationship. If on the other hand, there are legitimate reasons why we should not divulge certain activities, I need to know what those activities are. I just do not feel comfortable with the idea that we are to having a trusting relationship based on the fact that “we don’t have to tell each other everything we do.” I do not feel comfortable with an understanding we decide which things we tell the other about and which things we don’t & the other person does not know which actives we report & which ones we don’t?? To me it’s so simple if we have an understanding that virtually everything is reportable. Again, I am referring to current events & not past events or counseling sessions. <P>In summary, regarding current events, I just do not understand the concept that says “I don’t have to tell you about everything that I do (just whatever I chose to share?).” <P>On a similar, but technically different topic I want to take the liberty to try and clarify another ongoing issue. This has to do with daily communication & conversation. For years I have felt a need to call at home and at work to many times just say “Hi, How are you.” I will admit that many times I am looking for a friendly, supportive voice on the other end. It has been a somewhat common occurrence to not hear that friendly, supportive voice. In fact this calling has generally been addressed by Cindy to me as a source of irritation. A consistent message I receive about this is that (whether at home or at work), my call is many times a nuisance & she has better things to do & to not call unless I have a specific reason. Sometimes I have encountered some problem or disappointments & I really feel a need to speak to a friendly voice. This kind of a call has really created a problem for Cindy & I have received a very clear message from her about this and that I should not burden her with this until I get home. <P>As a result of this general attitude, many calls create an obvious tension & many times Cindy responds with a defining tone of sarcasm & irritation. As a result I have tried hard to limit my calls. <P>I still feel this need. Our discussions about this continue to create tension & I continually hear reasons why my daily calls are not necessary. She has taken an informal survey from those at her work & informs me that they do not talk with their spouses during the day very often, and only for specific reasons like picking up the kids. She has informally got similar feedback from one of our friends. I on the other hand know of & have heard from lots of people that it is not uncommon or unusual to have a daily chat with your spouse during the day. Cindy has told me in so many words & that she sees my need here as a big sign of a really weak, “needy” person who is “smothering” her & she is not going to give up on her idea that we not do this or if we do, it is under great duress & I am being an unreasonable “controlling” person. I would like to have a feeling that I have the freedom to call Cindy at any time to discuss anything I feel I want to. Currently I do not have this feeling. At this time I feel that to call her during the day, I better have a really good reason & if I call more than a couple times a day (maybe now, a week?) it is a real big problem – like I have to be really careful in that I have an unspoken quoted for the number of calls & if I exceed this there are problems! I would like to come to some understanding of what boundaries or limitation we are realistically to have on this subject. Over the last two weeks I have called her at work one time. The week before last she called me once. After our last discussion about this over the weekend, she has called me each day over the past four days. <P>Does this seem like reasonable & fair presentation of my issue? Is there anything else you feel would be important?<BR>Thanks!<BR>HH<BR>PS- I'm likely to be seeing a counselor next week.<p>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited July 20, 2001).]

HH...<P>I think you have every right to expect the openness and honesty. I know after d-day, my life became an open book. I cannot, in good faith, expect it not to. I am the one that messed up and the consequence for that is to be available and able to explain my whereabouts and actions at all times. Do I find this childish? Maybe sometimes, but the reality is that if I am ever to be trusted again, in any degree, I owe it to her and myself to be completely open. Many WS, IMHO, want the BS to *just get over it* and return to having their privacy. Im here to tell ya, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!! Unless the BS is completely naive, the WS is gonna have to pay restitution for what happened. Having to recount our daily activities is part of recovery. Again, most WS that get offended, angry, irritated, are only worried about their own recovery and not that of the BS. They want to sweep it under the rug, not talk about it, and forget it. *Outta sight, outta mind* is not going to happen. You have every right to expect that, and I think the letter is well written and not a LB.<P>As far as the second issue goes, in a loving relationship, as long as it is not 7-8 times a day, I know that I love calling and hearing that voice. We generally talk 2-3 times a day, even for just 1-2 minutes and touch base. If she is truly worried about your needs, then that is not an issue. If she is hiding something, or wants that anonymity at work, that is generally when that reaction is invoked, again, IMHO. Being a WS that has been there, there is always a reason for THAT reaction. The bottom line is that there is some reason she doesn't recognize that need in you, or doesn't want to comply. I feel like I am rambling here, but I don't think, as a WS, that you are out of line, unreasonable or pointing fingers in this letter. You deserve answers, if nothing else, as to why she is unwilling to meet your needs and help in YOUR recovery. <P>Best of luck!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Trueheart,<BR>Thanks a lot!<BR>Peace be with you,<BR>HH

If you have a sense for my story, you know that I have had anxieties about how my W (WS) dresses & her “ Look” – After incident in bar Thursday, she seems to have gotten a message to tame it down, at least when with me. Friday & Saturday nights with me she was not wearing the tank top kind of thing. I did not feel anxious like I have when she wears the short skirt (or shorts) & tank top things.<P>Bye the way, Regarding her PA’s, she says she was seduced (also, remember after the first guy did not call her back, she began calling him until they got hooked up again & when you look at her cell phone records, she made lots of calls to him!), like he was a predator & her a victim. She also says that she was turned on to sex by me showing her a dirty video & watching HBO’s Real Sex (although we had seen these kind of things many times in the past.). I have neglected to mention to explain what she explained about how she got started with that the first guy’s buddy. He was doing some landscaping kind of thing a few doors down from us & he knocked at our front door & engaged my W in conversation & said that he knew what she & his friend did, do & that was evidently enough for her to invite him for sex. She admitted to becoming obsessed with these guys & that she was checking out all men she would see doing construction & driving pick up trucks. She also admitted to seeing these guys in the neighborhood when with me & when we got back home I went somewhere & she jumped into the car & went back to where they were to chat & she made a date with one of them to meet at a pizza hut close to the motel where they went.<P>According to her, her counseling has not identified any specific reasons why the A’s occurred. She gave me the above story when I asked her about this – 4 weeks ago. She stated her Counseling is for her personally & not marriage enrichment ideas. I am to potentially see a counselor this week.<P>Saturday night was a night out with a good couple friends of our who are close to same age, slightly older. My W is dressed with pants & dressy kind of T-shirt. She got a couple glances, but I did not feel threatened at all.<P>Saturday morning I am playing golf with friends just after noon. She says that she might go to the swimming pool while I’m gone. She has gone by herself three times now in past two weeks & I have expressed desire to go with her, to do more things together. She has her modified bikini that she wore in our backyard yesterday. What I mean by modified is that it is a normal, skimpy bottom, but the top has a form fitted extension that is extended below the breast cups about 3 to 4 inches. This covers her gall bladder scare but exposes her mid-drift. Before I leave she puts on one of her one piece suits.<P>When I return from golf I ask if she went to pool & she answered yes, for a couple hours. A little later I ask if she saw anyone there that she knew & she replied with question to me, did I see anyone at golf course I knew & I responded that I did & never went back to my question because I did not want to start an argument.<P>The next day I ask & she confirmed that she worn her modified bikini. Now, maybe it’s because It’s out of sight & out of mind, but I did not feel threatened, but I still have this haunting feeling that this is not appropriate for someone with in her position – coming off PA and all. In a very calm tone she explained that she felt comfortable & that there were other women there older & fatter. I WANTED TO ASK, BUT AGAIN, I’M TRYING HARD TO BE REASONABLE & NOT CONFRONTATIONAL, BUT I WONDER ABOUT THESE OTHER WOMEN SHE DESCRIBES, IF THEY WERE THERE BY THEMSELVES?? Do I have a right to speak an opinion here -- like I have said before with these kind of things, does it matter what someone else is doing, but it is her & my feelings were dealing with here --? <P>My point is that it makes me extremely nervous that she does not accept very much responsibility at all for her A’s, yet she totally rejects my suggestions that she tone it down, dress & look wise, from my point of view, so as to not attract so much attention to potentially hungry guys?? Do I have justified reasons to ask for some control in her activities or am I being out of line & too controlling?<P>Here again, I am wondering, AM I BEING MR. CONTROL, MR. PRUDE, TOTALLY UNTRUSTING & UNREASONABLE IF I ASK HER OR TELL HER THAT I DON’T THINK THAT ACTIVITY (going to pool by self in modified bikini) IS APPROPRIATE? AM I TOO PARANOID? <P>Remember, she had told me she was not shopping anymore & I found in her trunk packages of cloths that she never told me about & I made it an issues & gave her a couple opportunities to tell me & she did not.<P>She was off work last Wednesday & Thursday (as is the case most weeks). I mowed the grass Thursday evening – I had suggested to her that she might water our flowers & some areas of yard I planted new grass – she did not. Since her return after d/d (02/010/01) she has been ironing my shirts & fixing meals & doing the laundry & vacuuming – she had not fixed meals for a few years, I ironed all my shirts & I always helped with vacuuming & laundry. She has gotten out of habit of fixing meals for a few weeks now & I did laundry & vacuumed the family room Saturday. I don’t really mind, it just seems to me to be an indication though that we’re drifting back to old habits? She no longer feels a need t be working on certain things --?? <P>This morning I find tucked away in her billfold a man’s business card with a hand written note about a gift show & “setup” Aug. 3rd & 4th. This could easily be very innocent in that this is the industry & kind of thing she does & this could be a totally Bussiness thing, but why does she not mention this to me & why hide it in billfold. Yesterday she mentions seeing an add in the paper for a part time position with inventory control thing in retail stores – if she has a special work related engagement with this other guy, why would she not tell me??<P>Regarding this letter she asked me to do for her counselor, I told her I was working on it & I could show it to her, but she mentions there’s no hurry cause she’s not seeing him ‘til Thursday. It is like she does not want to address this question until she talks with him, which seems a little odd to me???<P>The general tone from her is that I should trust her completely & any kind of questions regarding her activities is a big negative, creates lots of tension & that I need to “get over it!”<P>I appreciate your feedback!! Thanks,<BR>HH<BR>

The guy's bussiness card I mentioned finding, I'm 90% sure is salesperson, that calls on the store & was at show W attended a day before D/D. W said on D/D he was one that flirted with her & he had told her how hot she looked & how did her H let her out of the house looking like that? She dismissed him as her being interested, or a threat to me (again on D/D) by saying that he was a guy my age with family & scout leader (like he was not her type).<BR>If this is the same guy, do you feel It would be reasonable to ask her not to be around him? Or do should I relent to her request & be all trusting?<BR>Thanks Again!<BR>HH<p>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited July 23, 2001).]