For those of you who know my story, the OW harassed me for mos on my answering machine. She said pretty vile things, all directed at me. BTW, I was very sick during that time frame and she used it in her messages. Now I know she was angry because my H hadn't left me and she fully expected him to. So in essence she was taking her hatred/disappointment of him out on me. I requested, thru my H, that she stop all calls. She ignored the request. I saved the messages.<P>I guess it's important to know that I had never met, seen, talked to or done anything to this woman. I was simply married to the man of her dreams.<P>Okay, so after seperation the OW continued to call. She was looking for my H as he wasn't with her 24/7. I finally was at my wits end. By my counselors urging I filed an anti-harassment order on her. And in court it was granted.<P>Now flash forward, about 2 mos ago, the calls start again and they were traced to her. I emailed my H explaining I did not want to have her incarcerated (anti-harassment order would dictate an arrest if violated) but she needed to stop. He calls me at work on a non-identifiable number (I'm in Plan B) and I talk to him. He says he can't imagine why she would be calling me again and to pls not do anything legal. He starts to explain how terrible it was what she went through and how devistated her and her family were when I took her to court, how she barely recovered from it. I said "I have no empathy for her". There was a moment of silence and he said I was unfeeling. We then hung up. I decided not to file another complaint.<P>Okay .. where I'm doubting myself and trying to understand, is should I feel emapthy? This woman had silicone implants years ago, they leaked, herself and two of her sons (one of them is my H's) have numerous things wrong with them due to the leakage (boys were affected in utero). But good grief, am I suppose to feel empathy for her when she was warned to stop calling but didn't listen. I mean, I am sorry she is sick, but does being sick give a person an excuse to harass another? I just don't feel empathy for her, it's not there. Am I wrong?<P>Jo <P>------------------<BR>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak which can snap in the wind"<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 21, 2001).]

I hear ya! I went through a phase where I felt bad because I didn't feel bad about OW#1 being in a bad car accident (no injuries, but the car was totalled.. it was hit by a drunk driver). My H said the same thing, "how could you be so hateful? That's one thing I can't stand about you.". Yah, well, when it comes to OW#1, I don't give a *%^&!!! So long as she stays away from my H, I'm fine.<P>I wrote about it on here at the time (in march or april? can't remember). And I got a response from someone who I believe is in recovery, but even after that, there was news that the OW had actually died! And she felt nothing too. So you're not alone. <P>Don't let your H use this to make you feel bad. Your feelings are your own. <P>IMO, I would file a report that she continues to harrass you. Especially since you are in plan B. You have to do what's best for YOU. Plan A is over with (for now anyways). If you don't feel good about reporting it, then don't. But don't not report it if it's only b/c you're worried about your H's reactions. He chose this woman over you for some time, and he should learn the consequences of his actions, meaning what kind of woman he's with.<P>Think about it. If it was a total stranger would you report it? I bet you would. So what makes this situation any different?<P>I'd be curious to know what you decide to do.<P>Karen<BR>

I think you have given her ample chances to stop...she is not; therefore further legal consequences should occur....you've been as empathetic as anyone could be...probably more so.<P>Cali<P>BTW...did you get any of those books yet? I am curious as to your reaction.<P>

Hi Topie,<P>I'm not going to do anything. It's been two mos since the last incident and all I want is for her to LEAVE ME ALONE!<P>Thanks for responding, Hon. My post was more about how I'm doubting myself. Why and if I should feel empathy for her. This whole thing is a friggin struggle. I think my H thinks of me as a bad person because I stood up for myself, and now because I don't feel bad for her, that he sees me as a unfeeling person. I guess his opinion of me, in fog or not, matters to me. But there is no way I would ever convince him otherwise. His loyalties are with her.<P>Mostly I'm looking for third party opinions. I am open to the idea I'm responsible in alot of matters concerning my part in our marriage and it's failure. I'm so off balance that trying to set the most fundamental boundaries such as protecting myself are questioned by me. Does that make sense?<P>Jo

IMO I would file, for your protection. She knew what she was doing when she was with your husband. The implants caused harm to her boys. As far as the husband saying you have no feelings, you are sympathetic as one can see. Just tell your husband, you have no revenge against the woman, but I need to protect myself, therefore action needs to be taken now. Also, say I am sorry you feel I am reacting against your will, but I am in need of being here for my family and myself. <P>The WS seems to be there for themselves and the OP. I am getting the same thing in a different form. My H wants to protect the OW of her telling her husband about the affair. This is the OW 2nd affair, and I feel that her H should know now, eventually he will have to find out. Sure the OW is scared of what everyone will think, but she surely knew this from the start. She has to finish what she started. The same for my H, what the 2 of them started needs to have a final end for them, and the affecting families need to have an end. I don't despise the woman, but I can say I don't like her either. I want nothing to do with her, no seeing her, no hearing her voice, etc. As far as I am concerned, they could ship her to the planet Pluto. <P>Just ask GOD to help you with this decision. But for all purposes, the legal action is a must. You can only protect yourself, no one else will.

I don't think you should feel empathy for her at all. Sympathy, maybe. But not because she's physically sick, but mentally. Okay... so I'm expressing my own views towards OW#1 here...hehehe... but the anger still boils up in my veins just thinking of her! AUGH!! It's something I'm working on. I just want to reach a point where I think of her, and feel nothing. Absolutely nothing. I fear that will still take some time, even though I have my H home with me again.<P>Hmmm...let's see.. you're questioning your own boundaries, and what they should be. Am I reading that right? If I am, then I say do whatever works for you at the time. There's no law saying you can't change it, right? After all, it IS a woman's perogative to change her mind...hehehe. And if it's not something you're ready to deal with just yet, then let it go for the time being. I'm sure you're like me and have lots of other things on your plate that can be attended to first.<P>Becoming independant again is a hard thing to accomplish. I was only just getting the hang of it when H wanted to come home. I'm already missing it (sigh!), but working it into our way of life now. What held me back the most, was staying in "WE" mode in my head. "I" mode was way deep inside, and still buried pretty well (I think that's a mum thing though).<P>Karen<BR>

Resilient...<P>I agree...file. If H wants to continue to defend her, let him. That is his problem to deal with. You gave her warning and she ignored it. One thing as a parent and a teacher that we learn is not to make a threat/promise that we are not going to follow through on. Why should you feel empathy for someone that is trying to/has tried to ruin your marriage and family? First off, following through on a harassment case, does not mean you have no empathy. It means, you have a right to protect yourself! <P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Four months ago, without ANY attempt to work on our marriage after her surprise "love, but not in love" speech, my W moved 600+ miles away to be with her OM. This Thursday, she was back in town, we talked, and she said she broke up with the guy. He told her, "I have to let you go if I'm ever going to have you in the future." Generous of him to let me have my wife back, no? Anyway, as I REALLY hope we make the right choices in the coming months to get back together and work things out. I think this guy is trash. He hasn't spent alot of sleepless nights worried about my mental health, or the health of my family, so as I told my W, one of the biggest pleasures of my life would be to have him pine away for my wife in agony, forever knowing what he gave up the first time he ran from her while I'm making her SO happy with our new relationship she can hardly stand it. I'll feel for the guy, really.

If the OW was so devastated and has "barely recovered" from the effects of being taken to court, why on earth would she do it again? Isn't that the definition of insanity, repeating the same actions and expecting different results?<P>I think it is completely unreasonable for him to expect you to feel empathy toward her.

As a human being in pain, yeah, a bit of understanding... but not MUCH.<P>How's that for non-commital?<P>In a perfect world, with perfect people, we could put aside our differences and love one another despite anything that has ever happened...<P>This is not a perfect world, and we are imperfect people. <P>Her pain (and the health concerns regarding herself and her children) is sad (because pain is pain) but I chuckled (yes I did - not my finest moment ) when I read it was from breast implants. Unless she had breast cancer and needed rebuilding to get those implants I don't feel sorry for her. Her children? Of course -- innocent victims.<P>Separate it all out -- it's too bad for the children. They are innocent. Her? She's a b!tch, and no amount of disease changes that one way or the other.

Resilient,<P>I don't see any reason for you to feel sorry for her at all. She has been told to stop calling and if she's that sick how does she manage to harasse you? If she feels like making nasty phone calls maybe she really isn't as sick as she claims????<P>(Sorry, I just don't feel much empathy for someone like that)

I don't think you are wrong. I would email your husband again, saying that you have given much consideration to his words during your conversation, and thank him for his concern.<P>And then I would say that I would be filing charges on her again if it continues, and if your husband is still continuing to feel concern for OW, then he should advise her to stop the calls.<P>That way it is not your problem, it is her problem, and if he chooses to make it his problem, then he can.<P>TnT

Of course his opinion of you matters to you still. No matter where you are right now, you did love this man and you did not want this to happen to your marriage. And, personally, I believe that many women can continue to love their ex-spouses under these types of circumstances and still learn to move on with their lives.<P>In order for you to move on with your life, you need no more OW in YOUR life. Boundaries that are LB's are still necessary. If he wasn't in the fog still, he would see your boundaries as the necessity that they are.<P>OW is in need of psychiatric help, IMNSHO, and that is something that she may be required to get if you DO file a complaint about her violating the anti-harrassment order. As for her being sick - Did she voluntarily have them put into her body? Did she get any money out of that HUGE class-action lawsuit against the silicone implant manufacturers? Yes, I would feel badly to an extent about the boys having been affected by the leakage - but YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY OF THIS, and should not have to suffer even a tiny bit as a result of this woman's life choices.<P>Remember, they ARE HER LIFE CHOICES. We all have to live with the results of ours, and she needs to learn that boundaries are just that - limits to certain behaviors.<P>You are not wrong at all to feel no empathy. You should tell him that feeling nothing is certainly much better than if you felt open hostility toward her.<P>Give her H@ll, Jo. She has BEGGED for it with her actions.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Thank you for all your responses. It helps me see things outside of all this pain. I have a problem being angry with people and tend to draw it inward and become depressed. I feel I should be angry with OW, not because she is with my H, but because she went after me thinking she had a right to. I also believe my H must have allowed her to feel she had that right.<P>The OW did not have breast cancer, her implants were installed solely for cosmetic reasons. And as for the Lawsuit, she went to court in May 2001 and lost. NO $$ was awarded. I know they both were banking on a windfall of cash.<P>I agree that she can't be that sick, she runs Kareoke at night in bars, but my H has told me she feels better at night and one of the symptoms of her illnesses is not being able to tolerate sunlight or bright lights. She also is not well enough to drive, but she is now driving my H's second car all around town.<P>I chuckle to myself too sometimes Nyneve, because one of the things my H told me about OW was she was "naieve" and "very lovable". I listen to the tapes and see someone who is just the opposite. She is very street smart and very manipulative. Is it me .. or are most men just not very smart when it comes to seeing a woman in her true colors, beyond the sex.<P>Again ... thanks a bunch for your responses, I'm making my way thru this, and without your help I don't know how I could ever have gotten this far.<P>Still one day at a time ....<P>Love,<BR>Jo

Jo,<P>People in affairs just never seem to see people for their true colors. In a normal relationship, it is part of the formula for success, but in an affair, it has been removed.<P>Human emotions are one of the most bizarre things on earth.<P>Take care.

Jo...<P>Funny you should ask the question about seeing past the sex. That came up in a discussion the other day. I think it is a two fold thing...you mentioned she is street smart...one of the things that happens in an A, I believe, is that the WS is ripe for the taking, and no matter if the WS is W or H, the OP really knows how to play on the weakness and uses the sex as a tool to show *how connected* they are, how well they *know* one another, how well the *communicate*, and sex becomes a ploy for holding on to that WS. So, can we see past the sex? Probably not, but it gets used as a well crafted tool, by both the WS and OP, to hold on to what makes them feel better. Thus, the defending OP when it comes to WS seeing them for what they truly are. The BS sees through it, but the WS cant let their fantasy be attacked and crumble before their eyes. <P>That's not a clinical answer...more of a backyard discussion type of feeling. Hope it makes some sense.<P>Trueheart

OMG Trueheart ... that really helps me. You see, the OW used sex a lot. I listened in on her pages to my H and it was full of sex. Pretty raw and x-rated stuff.<P>So I have a question, does the sex high they are experiencing eventually fade, does it become mundane and no longer their focus? Does that connection become weaker as time goes on?<P>Hey Rick!!!<P>I've been wondering about you. I'm glad to hear you're getting your kids soon. I know how lonely you must feel without them. Rick, if you LQQk over at the D/D board you'll see that Allison posted. Seems she's doing pretty good. <P>Rick, I wonder if us Plan Ber's are supposed to be in Plan B the rest of our lives. I think I may start a thread asking that question. I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but I want to see what other's have to say (i.e., K, NSR etc.)<P>Thanks guys for your help ....<P>Jo<P><BR>

Jo...<P>It does!! One thing that happens is that the *passion* wears off and real life sets in. You begin to see the little faults that werent there when the A began. You begin to hear the henpecking, the accusing, the insecurities that led to the A in the first place. After awhile, sex is all there is, and that is not enough. This person, was, afterall, the knight in shining armor, or the woman of your fantasies? When you begin to see they are mortal and not superhuman, the euphoria fades. If they are really good though, and the hooks get in too deep, they have you convinced you can't go on without them, and it takes huge efforts to break away from that. But, yes Jo, it fades!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Hi Jo,<P>My 2 cents..... protect yourself. I you feel harrassed, you have the right. If the OW feels 'humiliated' then she needs to stop doing what is going to cause her to get humiliated. You don't have to feel sorry or empathy for her. She brought this upon herself. Until this psyco gets help, she will continue to do this. <P>Speaking from experience? I think the longer we oblige these types, the more they take advantage of it. For me, I have tolerated OW enough, H knows this, any future stuff with not be handled with 'oh, I wonder if this will hurt her feelings'. OW's feelings are no concern of mine. She doesn't want me in her life, then she needs to get out of mine. You got to take control of your life, Jo. Sorry to sound mean, but you know where this is coming from. Right now the one who can best take care of you is you. Your H is doing a poor job of taking care of you. Most of our H's are in that boat. So why should we feel sorry for the OW? Because that is the normal way we react to people, giving them the benefit of the doubt. There is no doubt that this OW is nuts, so no more benefit needed. <P>This may go against your good nature, but sometimes you have to not only let sleepling dogs lie, if they are foaming at the mouth, you have to have them removed!!!<P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Jo - I apologize for arriving late to this post. I think everyone so far has offered good advice.<P>I admire your compassion in asking the question, but my recommendation is: BURN HER!! SHES A WITCH!!!!!!!<P>Seriously, I recommend you sit tight and not file another complaint. But the instant she harasses you again, light the match and we'll fan the flames.<P>Dave