These questions, for some reason are running through my mind. I know, I think too much. Maybe stupid questions?<P>While in the A:<P>How do WS's view OW's adverse statements, comments, actions, etc., against BS?<P>Do WS's think of this as OW's showing "love" for them?<P>Do the things OW's say against the BS have a positive influence on the A relationship, or negative?<P>Does the WS see the vindictiveness of the OW's, when ploting them against the BS for their own personal gain of WS?<P>What is WS's perspective on OW's pushing....getting rid of BS?<P>Do WS's ever view the OW, in these cases, as being an immature or hateful person?<P>Do WS's see the motive? How do they feel about this?<P>Do they view the OW as their ally?<P>Are WS's and OW joined against the enemy (BS)?<P>Does the OW have that much power, control over the WS?<P>I just wonder how this is interpreted by the WS during the A?<P>Of course I realize these things can vary depending, but in general I was just wondering? <BR>

Hurtwife...<P>Very good questions!!<BR>I will give you what I can to help...<P>I view what happened as unfortunate and I take the responsibility for my actions. But, I draw the line at OW attacking or saying desparaging things about W. W never did anything to her, hurt her, took anything from her and she has no right to attack her. In fact, (and I no longer have any contact)when those remarks were made, it shed alot of light on exactly who OW really was. She had the gall to treat me and W as if she had no rights to me, and W was stealing me from OW?? Once I was able to see the *real* OW, it made my decisions much easier. It became more clear to me that OW was totally self serving, and in spite of her claims, had her own interests at heart, didnt care who she hurt, even me, as long as she got her way. (can we say spoiled?)<P>I have seen those cases, though, where OW/OM are so taken and fog is so thick, that they are actually brainwashed to believe the crap that is spewed about their spouse. I have seen some OP that are so good at manipulation and control, that the WS sees the OP as the victim, and the BS as the bad person to be shunned. When the BS talks bad about the OP, the WS jumps to the defense of the OP, like they deserve undying devotion to their cause. They get so mentally twisted that the BS is no longer the victim and *deserves* whatever happens from the OP. (It is almost scary the transformation that happens)<P>I will say, that for me, once I saw these things, I ran for the exit signs. Interestingly enough, it was my W that helped me to see it. She didnt do it by attacking OW character, as much as by using rational arguments with me. I think that attacks based in emotional areas end up being LB, but when she referred to my senses I had control over, I was able to see clearly what had happened. It all depends on the strength of the OP, the weakness of the WS, and the guts of the BS as to how the whole scenario plays out. Every situtation is different. I am so thankful that my eyes were open enough that I saw it quickly, or my fog would be thick too. I hope this helps.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Guess there are problems here...couldn't get in yesterday? Now it's indicated there is "1" response....but there isn't any? What does that mean?

My H apparently wouldn't stand for OW#1 saying bad things about me. I didn't see any of that proof, because in emails I had read, he just wouldn't say anything. But I do believe that got to him.<P>What also got to him was my rationalizing with him. The fact that OW#1 is married.. come on!! How nice is she to pull this crap on her H? And then when H found out that he wasn't the only one (she had an A a few years ago), he didn't feel so 'special'. As well as the fact that she was taking time away from her dd (little brat might I add) to spend time with H, I would hope that that got to H too. What 'loving mother' would do that kind of thing?<P>He had asked me why I was making his life so miserable when we were separated. He wanted to know why I kept on trying to ruin his chances of moving on with any other women. I explained to him that it wasn't fair that he put so much energy into these other women without even giving our marriage that energy first. Throw our kids into that equation, and he accepted that answer without another question about it.<P>To my knowledge, H doesn't see OW#1 as being a hateful person. He is still grateful for her being his 'friend' through our separation. He has yet to acknowledge how manipulative she was.<P>OW#1 had a LOT of power over my H during their A. He was so lost and confused, and she sunk her claws right into him. She's unhappy in her marriage, so I'm sure she rationalized their being together because of it. She got to him in ways I could not. She would take him out for breakfast and dinners, buy him clothes and cologne, and had the time to listen to his every word (H and I can't do that as easily, what with 3 kids aged 2 and under, there isn't much time we have that doesn't get interrupted, nor is there much in the lines of extra money).<P>Early on in their A (within a few weeks of it becoming a PA), H told me that he was in love with OW#1. No need to talk about how much that hurt. However, since we've been in recovery, and I've asked him about it, he hasn't been able to say that he really was. The best he can do is say that he appreciates how she was there for him. I don't think he's not saying he was in love with her to spare my feelings now, but that he's not saying it because he can't, because he realizes that it wasn't real.<P>HW, your questions have put so many ideas in my head about things I want to know from my H. Unfortunately, now is not a good time to ask him these things. We have a lot of other 'life' troubles to deal with that take precedence over past events. But thankyou for writing out your questions, they've helped me. <P>Karen<BR>

How do WS's view OW's adverse statements, comments, actions, etc., against BS?<P>snl...I think that would be not a good thing, and a red flag re the relationship with ow. In my case, the ow and I are freinds, and she has never said anything bad about my w, actually she usually defends her when I am talking about my issues with my marriage.<P>Do WS's think of this as OW's showing "love" for them?<P>snl..I wouldn't.<P>Do the things OW's say against the BS have a positive influence on the A relationship, or negative?<P>snl...depends, it it is just dissing, then no. But if it is actual discussion and feedback re issues, could be a positive cause she "understands".<P>Does the WS see the vindictiveness of the OW's, when ploting them against the BS for their own personal gain of WS?<P>snl...I would.<P>What is WS's perspective on OW's pushing....getting rid of BS?<P>snl...Would depend. If the ws is waffling and such, the ow could make a reasonable request to get off the fence. Keep in mind often the op has nothing to go on but they have been told about the marital disharmony. They eventually will want a resolution. But also from the op veiw, the waffling itself would be a very big red flag that they are being used...<P>Do WS's ever view the OW, in these cases, as being an immature or hateful person?<P>snl...I would. But (from reading here) I can see this happens a lot, and it confuses me. I guess fog must really exist, cause seems ws often pick some very questionable op, but then, who knows how that mysterious chemistry thing works I guess. Someone needs to write a book for ws, to help raise their conciousness re all this stuff.<P>Do WS's see the motive? How do they feel about this?<P>snl...They may, they may not. Depends I guess on how stable the ws is. In my case, as I mentioned, there has been none of this. Just 2 people in emotionally estranged marriages (and with good reason) who like each other a lot, and would have done fine if single. The problem is we are married. So the ow has done nothing overt to interfere, and neither have I. We just support each other emotionally (discuss marriage, and relationships a lot, in an attempt to understand ourselves), and ride the roller coaster too. Coming to decide we must seperate, and do whatever we do with our marriages on our own. I found MB and brought wife here, I also told ow about it and suggested she do the same.<P>Do they view the OW as their ally?<P>snl....Yes, as the one you love, but not as partner in plotting the demise of the bs. IMO no ethical person would help someone do that directly, clearly a marital decision must be made alone. But one can talk about choices and actions to take.<P>Are WS's and OW joined against the enemy (BS)?<P>snl...The bs is not the enemy. But you are joined in the sense of secrecy issues, but that is the nature of this.<P>Does the OW have that much power, control over the WS?<P>snl...Only as much as you let them have. Letting the op have a lot of inappropriate control says more about the ws than it does the op.<P>

trueheart:<P>I thought this would vary depending on the individual. This just confirms my opinion, but mine is based on being rational. Where as my H is NOT. <P>I never did anything to OW, don't know her, wouldn't want to. The only thing I did do is protect myself by taking her to court after threats. Of course H told me I didn't have to do what I did...taking HIS girlfriend to court. <P><B>She had the gall to treat me and W as if she had no rights to me, and W was stealing me from OW??</B><P>This is what I perceived from the OW involved with my H. But, H seems to go right along with it. I call it OW jealousy.<P><B>Once I was able to see the *real* OW, it made my decisions much easier. It became more clear to me that OW was totally self serving, and in spite of her claims, had her own interests at heart, didnt care who she hurt, even me, as long as she got her way. (can we say spoiled?)</B><P>Oh, does this ever hold true in my case, OW is self serving. I just don't understand how H can NOT see this. It's like they are allies against me (BS). <P><B>I have seen those cases, though, where OW/OM are so taken and fog is so thick, that they are actually brainwashed to believe the crap that is spewed about their spouse. I have seen some OP that are so good at manipulation and control, that the WS sees the OP as the victim, and the BS as the bad person to be shunned. When the BS talks bad about the OP, the WS jumps to the defense of the OP, like they deserve undying devotion to their cause. They get so mentally twisted that the BS is no longer the victim and *deserves* whatever happens from the OP. (It is almost scary the transformation that happens)</B><P>This appears to be what is happening in my circumstances. <BR>It is scary. It's sad...especially when his children are in the plot. It's just beyond my comprehension that H does not see this. It is not beneficial to him or his children.<P>At least you saw it, more than I can say for WH. I tried rationally pointing things out to H, to no avail. H would see maybe for the moment, but soon as OW got hold of him, his viewpoint changed. Until H no longer wanted any contact with me. OW also fabricated accusations against me, I guess H believed these also.<P>Umm, strength of OP....strong influence, weakness of WS...extremely weak. Guts of BS...felt it's beyond my control. It's hard to do anything...with a WH that is irate, verbally abusive and excludes the BW. Most likely I would have done things differently, knowing what I know now. Didn't find MB until 9 months afterwards.<P>Good that your eyes were opened enough that you saw.<P>Yes, your input is helpful...and appreciated. I think my H is fogged deeply, brainwashed, controlled, manipulated, as you mentioned. I also agree that WH is "mentally twisted" no doubt. <P>During one surprising phone call from H, he was so pathetic. H admitted he had caught OW in alot of lies and did not really trust her(Funny, he had told me before, that he would trust me with his life). When I pointed things out, he asked why I didn't tell him before. He was extremely upset and said he'd put her out. By the following day, I called him to see if he was alright, he became nasty with me again and wouldn't talk to me. Lead me to believe...OW used her manipulation again. <P>Your input helps put things in the perspective of rationality. It also relieves me of thoughts, that I'm not crazy...H has a big problem. <P>Thanks much....take care. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurtwife:<BR><B>These questions, for some reason are running through my mind. I know, I think too much. Maybe stupid questions?<P>While in the A:<P>How do WS's view OW's adverse statements, comments, actions, etc., against BS? <P>___Mostly, I ignored them. For the most part though, she didn't comment a whole lot on my wife.<P>Do WS's think of this as OW's showing "love" for them?<P>___The way I saw it, I just wanted the acceptance that I felt my W wasn't able to give me.<P>Do the things OW's say against the BS have a positive influence on the A relationship, or negative?<P>___Negative.<P>Does the WS see the vindictiveness of the OW's, when ploting them against the BS for their own personal gain of WS?<P>___I didn't care enough about her to care what plans she was making or laying. But that became clear after I told my W about her.<P>What is WS's perspective on OW's pushing....getting rid of BS?<P>___I listened, I ignored. I really didn't care what she was thinking as long as sex was involved.<P>Do WS's ever view the OW, in these cases, as being an immature or hateful person?<P>___I do now.<P>Do WS's see the motive? How do they feel about this?<P>___I do now. At the time, like I think I may have pointed out, I didn't. I hate that this situation ever developed.<P>Do they view the OW as their ally?<P>___At the time I was having the affair, I just viewed the OW as someone to ask "why" to. Why do women act this way or that. Of course, the OW was totally supportive of me and the way I felt. She was an ally for awhile, but as time went on, she was just that woman I had sex with when I was rejected by my W.<P>Are WS's and OW joined against the enemy (BS)?<P>___Heck no. During my affair, I still was very hopeful that my wife and I would work things out. My A was MUCH more a PA than an EA. The only emotional part was on the OW side. How sick am I? I was asking this OW how I could understand and improve my marriage while having a PA with her.<P>Does the OW have that much power, control over the WS?<P>___Not in my case she didn't. <P>I just wonder how this is interpreted by the WS during the A?<P>___She tried to control some of our meetings, but as selfish as I was in my marriage at the time, I was selfish with her. We would only meet if and when I said it was time to. Over the course of three years, we had 8 physical encounters and one conversational meeting. We did talk on the computer A LOT for the first 7 or 8 months. During that first time period, there was no sex involved although we did meet once to "check" each other out. The first time we had sex was started by OW and I was drunk. I was alos extremely hurt by something my wife had said. Wife and I were LB'ing like crazy back then.<P>Of course I realize these things can vary depending, but in general I was just wondering? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I personally just had this insane urge to have sex with one person I trusted and a person that accepted me the way my wife could/would not. I was trying to reaffirm my manhood. In arguements, my wife would say I wasn't a man because of this that or the other reason, mostly to do with my drinking excessively. Her not knowing the emotional impact that was having on me due to my sexual abuse as a young boy continued this tact when we were in arguements because it would enrage me so much. And that was what she wanted, was to anger me past the point of reason so she could control the conversation. Later, when we would talk about it again, she would point out the holes in the wall, the broken stuff and through back into my face the things I had said knowing that I wouldn't be able to counter them because when I get that angry, my memory goes on vacation. I couldn't recall all the nasty things she had said. As I matured a little, and I was able to keep my anger in check, I discovered that she has such a control problem that THAT was her contribution to the break down of our marriage. Unfortunatly, I chose an affair instead of counseling to deal with the things I couldn't understand at the time. Due to this A, I have done a heck of a lot of damage to a woman that I love dearly. If I could go back, man if I could just go back for 15 minutes and grab myself. Today, our marriage is MUCH more honest and open. We *try* to talk things out and let the other know how we are feeling. We *try* not to abuse each other with our words. Of course, I would NEVER recommend that anyone have an affair to get to this point. We still have alot of problems and she may leave me yet. I pray though!!!!<P><BR>------------------<BR>DT<P>Stupid is as stupid does.<p>[This message has been edited by DownTime (edited July 24, 2001).]

Topie25:<P>Glad your H wouldn't stand for OW saying bad things about you. I don't know where my H's head is...up his A**.(sorry, but true). Your H apparently has respect for his W.<P>Your "H" is capable of thinking....in that he was not feeling so "special". See, this is another thing I don't understand with my H. This OW was married, living another man, playing her H to get back with him....when she moved in with mine. Now wouldn't anyone with a brain...think there was something WRONG with this OW's morals (NONE). Why would a man want that?<P>I wonder what would have happened if you didn't try to ruin his chances of moving on with OW? Would he have figured it out himself? My H has cut off contact...so I guess I can't ruin his chances. OW makes sure of that.<P>It appears OW has a LOT of power over mine too. She surely doesn't buy him anything....he is totally supporting HER. Weird, after he left he kept telling me, he was nothing but a paycheck to me. This was far from the truth, and now I think it said was to make me feel guilty. Isn't it odd...that H is nothing but a paycheck to OW?<P>I think with my H, it's more "lust" than love, something different. She is a real exhibitionists. <P>Thank you...if this has helped you in any way...I'm glad. I also wish the best for you and hope all works out with your marriage. Grateful for your input. <P>Take care.

When OW harassed me I told my H, I played the messages for him ... he reluctantly listened. She repeatedly called me a Cancerous C**t and quite a bit more (sorry folks, so vulgar).<P>You know what my H said .... "I'll talk to her, she's broken one of my rules". OMG .. H has RULES for being an adulteror.<P>Point being ... H being so immersed in his A didn't read the implications of what "type" of person would do such a thing. He allowed it and I bet sometime in the future he would deny it ever happened, or even that he reacted or unreacted the way he did.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 24, 2001).]

Jo, <P>There is no way H can see the implications. A WS in an affair is like a three year old...totally egocentric. If W/H does something wrong, it effects WS life. If OP does something wrong it effects WS life. Everything points to the WS totally. Talk about a vacuum? Sucks the brains right out of us!!<P>True

sad_n_lonely:<P>Thanks for your opinions and input. Seems like yours is another reply confirming that WS's would view OW's adverse statements, comments, actions.....as not a good thing. <P><B>Do WS's ever view the OW, in these cases, as being an immature or hateful person?<P>snl...I would. But (from reading here) I can see this happens a lot, and it confuses me. I guess fog must really exist, cause seems ws often pick some very questionable op, but then, who knows how that mysterious chemistry thing works I guess. Someone needs to write a book for ws, to help raise their conciousness re all this stuff.</B><P>It vastly confuses me too! That's why I'm asking opinions. I just don't get it. Questionable would be putting it lightly for the OW my H has dug up. Wonder if there is a book for WS...good idea.<P><B>Do WS's see the motive? How do they feel about this?<P>snl...They may, they may not. Depends I guess on how stable the ws is.</B> <P>Not sure what you meant by how stable the WS is? In what aspect? I will say that I believe my H is very unstable.<P><B>Do they view the OW as their ally?<P>snl....Yes, as the one you love, but not as partner in plotting the demise of the bs. IMO no ethical person would help someone do that directly, clearly a marital decision must be made alone. But one can talk about choices and actions to take./b]<P>You have a point there. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that my H is not an ethical person, at least not now. I had thought he was before. This is something that is extremely puzzling.<P>[b]Are WS's and OW joined against the enemy (BS)?<P>snl...The bs is not the enemy. But you are joined in the sense of secrecy issues, but that is the nature of this.</B><P>This may apply in some cases, not in mine. It's appears to me I have become the enemy. The actions and verbal expressions of my H and the OW, are a clear indication that I am now the adversary. <P><B>Does the OW have that much power, control over the WS?<P>snl...Only as much as you let them have. Letting the op have a lot of inappropriate control says more about the ws than it does the op.</B><P>Yes, I think it does attest WS has problems and issues, but also the OP must, otherwise they wouldn't have to apply the inappropriate control or even feel the need to. <P>

posted twice<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hurtwife (edited July 25, 2001).]

oops

Some thoughts for your contemplation, don't know if right, but is just what us analytical types do (and drive our more practical spouses crazy when it is about us)<P><BR>Hurt...It vastly confuses me too! That's why I'm asking opinions. I just don't get it. Questionable would be putting it lightly for the OW my H has dug up.<P>snl...I wonder it there is method to the madness in some cases. Maybe some ws pick loser type op precisely because they know will never be a real risk they will leave for them, is just to meet some specific need. And maybe also to make their bs crazy for unknown reasons, possibly to regain some control they feel they don't have, or express anger, kinda the ultimate passive/aggressive in your face action. None of this "thought" out of course, just the murky stuff deep down that drives people. And that is why I am annoyingly analytical to the point many think I am selfish, I really just want to make sure my emotions aren't sabotageing me.<P>Do WS's see the motive? How do they feel about this?<P>snl...They may, they may not. Depends I guess on how stable the ws is. <P>Not sure what you meant by how stable the WS is? In what aspect? I will say that I believe my H is very unstable.<P>snl..........I mean psychologically stable. IMO some of the ws I hear about here are borderline sociopaths, meaning they are incapable of loving anyone other than themself. If that is the case, it may be a hard choice for the bs, but I would just let em go, rather than endure decades of misery, or loveless marriage.<P>Do they view the OW as their ally?<P>snl....Yes, as the one you love, but not as partner in plotting the demise of the bs. IMO no ethical person would help someone do that directly, clearly a marital decision must be made alone. But one can talk about choices and actions to take.<P>You have a point there. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that my H is not an ethical person, at least not now. I had thought he was before. This is something that is extremely puzzling.<P>Snl....This gets tricky, cause IMO bs often have their own fog as well. There is nothing unethical about falling in love with someone (whether you are married or not), these feelings don't arise out of concious choice (at least not entirely). But there are a whole lot of ethics about what you do with it. Certainly assessing your marriage is ok, including how wrong it might be (at least as how you see it), that sometimes is percieved as unethical. I don't think so, one should want the ws to think through all this, not coerce/guilt them into what you want. However, there are rules of conduct most normal people feel comfortable with, and demonizing someone unfairly is a very big ethical no no. Also denyong someone their day in court is pretty much universally unfair. The Bs whether one wants to remain married to them or not, deserves a chance to be heard, and looked at fairly. That does seem to happen pretty much, but when it doesn't, I have to wonder at the ethical base of the ws, and wether you want someone that unethical as a spouse anyways.<P>[b]Are WS's and OW joined against the enemy (BS)?<P>snl...The bs is not the enemy. But you are joined in the sense of secrecy issues, but that is the nature of this.<P>This may apply in some cases, not in mine. It's appears to me I have become the enemy. The actions and verbal expressions of my H and the OW, are a clear indication that I am now the adversary. <P>Snl.....That is sad to hear, and distresses me when I do hear it, it is so unfair. No matter how much you contributed to the marital demise, you do not deserve to be the enemy. This stuff (affairs) is all terribly upsetting to everyone, but it can be handled in a reasonably adult mature manner. However, I will say some bs become belligerent and aggressive, this can make things dicey for the moment, as you are seen to be actively interfereing in the ws/op relationship...and in fact if you are interfereing you may become temporarily the enemy. BS need to understand we (ws) are not your property, you do not own us, we are free sovereign citizens and can do whatever we please...WITHOUT your interference. OTOH, there will be consequences, and you may leave, that is the whole point of plan a/b it avoids the bs becoming the enemy. Are you guilty of direct interference? My wife hired a private detective (among other actions), she also threatened to call ow and tell her all my "faults" (diss me in other words). She also threatened to reveal ow, (only I got discovered). This is all aggressive stuff, and could have made me feel threatened. Being the reasonable guy I am, I understood her aggression, and would never view her as an enemy...but I told her repeatedly this was not helping me feel like staying, and we had some vicious arguments (that has mostly passed as I (and she) got a grip on ourselves finally).<P>Does the OW have that much power, control over the WS?<P>snl...Only as much as you let them have. Letting the op have a lot of inappropriate control says more about the ws than it does the op.<P>Yes, I think it does attest WS has problems and issues, but also the OP must, otherwise they wouldn't have to apply the inappropriate control or even feel the need to.<P>snl.....True. The op if exerting inappropriate control is revealing stuff re them too. In my case, the ow is fairly impressionable emotionally, and I had to fight a constant battle with myself not to exert unfair pressures. I did (as a friend) want to help her regain control of her life (I think she is emotionally abused, with little self-identity), but I did not want to be her "saviour" and just have her start identifying with me instead. But as her romantic partner, I also wanted to protect and nurture her. The pressures eventually have become enormous for both of us (not to mention my poor wife). Likewise she exerted some control efforts on me, more benign than many ow, she just wants this to all go away, me reconcille with wife, and her husband never find out, and she just go back to conflict avoidance in marriage and suffer in silence. But, as they say, one can never put the genie back in the bottle, life doesn't allow that. So yes, there are pressures, and there are pressures, but then there always are in any human interaction, the important point is the motivations. When you understand what is happening, then you know how to respond, many times, things are not as they seem. <BR>

DownTime:<P><B>I personally just had this insane urge to have sex with one person I trusted and a person that accepted me the way my wife could/would not.</B><P>You brought something to mind, I think sex was the initial attraction for my H with OW. Not that she is attractive, not even a nice person, but she is loose. H had told me, before he left, of someone, he met at a party(before he met me). She displayed herself by satisfying herself in front of him. I know this is the OW he ran into again. <P><B>I was trying to reaffirm my manhood. In arguements, my wife would say I wasn't a man because of this that or the other reason, mostly to do with my drinking excessively.</B><P>I don't think anyone should personally attack another, like your wife saying "I wasn't a man". It only creates more hurt and damage. I think in disagreements, stick to the issues, not personal attacks. <P>Sounds like you have issues to deal with from your childhood. It's sad that you were sexually abused as a boy. These scars you have carried throughout your life, must have created much pain. This could produce alot of anger and contribute to the drinking. <P>My H had alot of anger he carried inside, but I didn't escalate it. I would try to calmly talk to him down from the anger. If it appeared the anger was too intense, at that time, I would tell him when he cooled off, than I'd be glad to discuss things with him. I don't think you really get anywhere in the heat of angry emotions. H had this problem in his first marriage, they feed off each others anger, attacking each other. H learned to control much of his anger, because I wouldn't fuel the fire.<P><B>Unfortunatly, I chose an affair instead of counseling to deal with the things I couldn't understand at the time.</B><P>I think this is what my H did, easier to run than to face the issues and work on them. <P><B>As I matured a little, and I was able to keep my anger in check, I discovered that she has such a control problem that THAT was her contribution to the break down of our marriage.</B> <P>Ironic you should mention "matured". My H wrote in an email that I deserved someone more "mature". I guess that means he recognized his immaturity....but just ignored it..again not facing it or working on improving.<P>As far as you W's control problem. Marriage should be a joint effort, not one of control. Supporting and taking care of each other....not tearing each other apart.<P>Seems like you had alot of turmoil in your marriage. It's also sounds like you have come to realize the real issues and are "trying" to work on your marriage. <P>You deserve credit for trying to build a better marriage. It takes a "man" to do that. I only wish my H would mature, confront his issues and be a "man". Instead he ran and is continuing in his A, living with OW.<P>I wish the best for you and your wife in your marriage. Keep praying.<P>May God Bless

Resilient:<P>Gee, this OW is a nasty one, as is my H's. Makes you wonder why or how H's could be with someone like this?<P><B>You know what my H said .... "I'll talk to her, she's broken one of my rules". OMG .. H has RULES for being an adulteror.</B><P>Really "RULES", my H appears to have none. Go figure. <P>Thanks for the input....take care.<BR>

trueheart:<BR><B>Jo, <P>There is no way H can see the implications. A WS in an affair is like a three year old...totally egocentric. If W/H does something wrong, it effects WS life. If OP does something wrong it effects WS life. Everything points to the WS totally. Talk about a vacuum? Sucks the brains right out of us!!<P>True</B>[/QUOTE]<P>This appears to be true...now..Do some WH ever get their BRAINS back? Maybe they just stay in the vacumm. Some do..some don't?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Hurtwife (edited July 26, 2001).]