To All - another long one . . . hope you can follow - it is pretty fragmented.<P>Here goes - I'll try and tackle this explanation. I've seen similar posts, but this is mine. I've been mulling this over for weeks to post. Hope I don't forget anything.<P>After d-day (June 2000), I asked my H to make love. He said "I'm not interested". What a blow. (Most H's would love to have a W like me that wants love, sex, SF). Even so much to say, why can't we just live together without sex. Unbelievable. I'm suppose to be his wife, with no sex, and be happy. I've always been the one pretty much to approach, earlier in our marriage he did too, sometimes I was too tired, or I would fall asleep on his chest. I thought I might have hurt his feelings, saying not tonight. In October the agreement was I could not even bring up sex (us making love) until after the 1st of the year - I waited much beyond that. He claims it is okay for me to discuss now. Which I ask him quite a bit (every night of the week), "tonight?", oh course, tonight never comes. But he recently said I am being obsessive about it. (I've made semi-love one time in about 15 months, and I'm being obsessive about it). I even showed him where it says in the bible a H is suppose to give his body to his W, and the W is suppose to give her body to her H. He takes it subjectively, he says he doesn't have to give his body to anybody if he doesn't want to.<P>I get so frustrated about this situation, our marriage, the EA, thinking another woman fell in love with him (how could he let that happen?), that he fell in love with someone else (he did because he sent a rose, called from telephone booths, bought love cards for her, probably told her he loves her - I never asked, but . . .). I still cannot believe he snuck around behind me doing all of this. He went to our savings account to withdraw a bank draft for the rose. This thing is really sick. If a counselor read all of this, they would say "SICK". The e-mails (probably not much there), but the AOL Instant Messenger. Oh, the things I found in his daytimer, briefcase - wish to he** I'd found the love cards she sent him. I should have asked for them when we moved. Yes, I even had to make it across country like this, a basket case, crying all the time, in front of our children. Do you think he ever really gave me sympathy - he doesn't to this day - he doesn't acknowledge that I need to be comforted, because this hurts me so much. That he has torn our marriage up. Not to mention that OW and her d came and stayed with us for three nights. And I looked forward to their visit. I still remember shutting the door in D's face, when I asked to talk to him on Sunday afternoon after he showed her the picture album (one of our first ever knock-down- drag out fights in 13 years of marriage). We started fighting because of this, we even had a fight on Christmas Eve 2000 - I am not sorry about that one bit (a 17 yr old no less - sorry I am so heartless - I don't care if it hurt her one little bit, they were in my house, and her mother OW was causing problems - I could tell she was in love with my H).<P>Now, how statements change. A year ago he would say, the problems started 5 years ago with us. Recently I mentioned about how he said there were problems 5 years ago, and he changes his mind and says he doesn't really think it was that long ago. Must be fogese.<P>My H is the nicest guy - I just can't believe this came from him - how can you treat the one you spoke marriage vows to, and had your children, like this? He sat next to me for 3 days when we had our first d, he saw both of his children born out of me. You've been with for 14 + years, cooked, done his laundry, I'm not much at cleaning, but my house is not filthy. Recreation companionship, etc., etc. , supported him to the end of the earth in his career. But when d-day was happening, I saw a completely different person, angry, beligerant, nasty human being, to his children, and me. He was horrible. I know now (only because of MB) that it was a thick FOG. He is coming out of it slowly now.<P>So I know he is not completely void of sexual thoughts - he was sending her dirty jokes (one of them remained in the in box on our e-mail, and I found it). He is not void of "love" because of the content of the relationship cards he bought to send to her. And he sat and made mailing labels, and bought the stamps for the envelopes (a year ago). <P>I can't keep my hands off of him. I want to hug him, kiss him (he either always has a cancer sore or as of late his back has been hurting). He told me sometime at the beginning of the year that I need counseling because I want attention. So that is exactly what WE DO - we try and go after the need that we feel we need. Unfortunately, the time we planned SF, and he was looking forward, I LB'ed. He'll sit at our e-mail, and give the computer all his attention, and me none. He'll give the computer attention, his dogs attention, and the people he supervises care and attention, but he won't give his wife attention.<P>I really don't think I've changed about this attention issue. I told him from the very first that I need alot of love and attention. I never wanted children until I met him, because I always was afraid that the guy would leave - then I met him - and I was totally secure, like he would never leave or anything. My H really isn't a "Babe" looking - but to me I love the way he looks, and I loved that he loved me, and we are "we". He was special to me, and I thought I was special to him.<P>Like Dr. Dobson says, the spouse needs to lay off a bit for the other spouse to reciprocate. I really try to convince myself to not go to him and hug him, love him, kiss him. I can't help myself, I try, I try, but I can't stop myself. I get so frustrated that he does not reciprocate (it is probably boardering on depression, because I feel like crying alot), he says he'll do anything I want, sometimes I LB because I tell him to move into the spare bedroom, or I'll move into the spare bedroom, then he says that I picked out our bed so I should sleep in it. Sometimes I tell him that I'd just like for him to leave. About a week ago, I walked out of the house with just my purse and nothing else (my car was in the shop), he never knew I left, he was doing dishes, I came back before he knew I was gone). I just feel so hopeless sometimes. The rollercoaster isn't anything like it use to be last year - I just can't believe that he, of all people, could have done this EA. (He says it wasn't an affair - his way of justification - it was just a sophomoric/high school thing). At least he told me a couple of weeks ago after he had dinner with her parents (thank God they live out of state - I was so scared that she would try to go see him), that had she been there it would have been a different story. He just has to find out information about things, and the two couples were a way to discuss old things, and get brought up to date.<P>Even the night (June 2000 - a week after OW and her d had left) I caught him on AOL Instant Messenger, saying the love words I would say to him - to her. He claims those are words everybody uses - ANOTHER ONE to add to the Fogese Dictionary of excuses - I have news - those are my original words, no one says something like that. Then after our long 4 hour discussion, I said "Come on back to bed", AND HE's been there ever since. He is lucky I did not kick him out of the house. After I started telling him what was going on, and he denied it - then I caught him - I could hear the tap, tap, tap; and God got me up, so I walked in on him - wish I could have just calmly sat down at the computer, and said "Keep Going, I'd like to see and hear even more". Even tho he made me endure the crap of having the BITC* in our home (a family friend that does that is a real BITC*), because she wanted him and she thought she could get him. And, oh, he had to drive them to the college for the d to check out, and he went in and interviewed the whatever at the college, because he knew what to ask). Poor OW . . . she could raise 3 children, all in high school, drive all over the state to see her kids in sports, etc. But she can't make it to a college that she and her d are checking out - I haven't heard what college they picked - nor do I care. He probably heard from her parents a couple of weeks ago. We could not afford for me to go on this business trip, I wanted to, hopefully in the future if he ever has to go to that state I'll be able to go.<P>Yes, I have a very big heart, for everyone who is hurting, in strife, etc. Sorry to be so heartless here - but I really hate this woman, I really hate myself for allowing another family to come into our life and deal this blow. Yes, I take responsibility for myself, and what I feel I've done wrong in this relationship, but I've paid my dues. My heart and soul hurts. When is my H going to come back to his marriage, and properly take care of a H's part, ie. to love his wife like he is suppose to do? When is my H going to realize that he needs to love me and his family with all his heart, because there may not be a tomorrow. There may be (anything) that will take his family away from him, and he won't ever have it again - because it might be gone.<P>This is what nags at me everyday. Leave him alone, maybe he'll start changing. Maybe he'll start approaching, maybe he'll show love more. It seems he is void of showing intimacy and love (once long ago was not the case), but sure is now. Sometimes you just want to chuck the whole thing, and start all over. How can you devote any amount of time to your lifelong relationship, and have it crumble around you like this? I know I'm not perfect, I just wanted someone to love me. Just a simple request, some guy to love me. Because compared to some out there, I am a real gem. I am just a person, who wants to be loved, and give love back. I make mistakes and will apologize for those mistakes, just take this pain, depression, and frustration away. I know the thing is "take one day at a time", I am sick and tired of one day at a time, I am sick and tired of the fact that my H does not love me like he once use to love me. I have written him letter after letter. I am so unhappy. It just doesn't change. We went to MC, from Oct to Dec. We need to spend time together, but his job, my work, the kids, etc. We can't afford to send the kids to grandma/pas, so that we could have some time together. He does always sit down and talk to me about all this stuff whenever I need to talk, and usually I do a blow up job (LB) when he is the most tired.<P>We did the EN questionnaires, and we completed a marital recovery agreement, he is reading HNHN, finished SAA weeks ago. Maybe things will be different when he comes home from this business trip (I can hope), usually not much changes. He says I am too controlling, yet when he first met me he liked the fact that I actually thought about things. I don't understand, I just don't understand. Sometimes I feel like I am at the breaking point, there's nothing else to give - its all gone. He doesn't really care - its gone.<P>There's probably more to add, but after working on this for hours, I better stop. Feedback appreciated.<P>Not feeling like hugs today, aftershock

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[after shock]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]<P>O, my dear...and I thought going two weeks w/out was suffering!!<P>I have no words...I would like to recommend that, if you can afford it, you call the MB counseling center. I was only able to do it once...plan to resume in the fall...but Steve was very helpful.<P>Since your H has read MB stuff, maybe he would agree to joint phone counseling?<P>Otherwise know that my prayers are with you,<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali,<BR>Surprised you could read that fast!<P>I've mentioned counseling with Steve $120/ he says not yet.<P>I had another counselor lined up, for $60/ every two weeks.<P>It's horrible - I wonder if my marriage will last. aftershock

In my opinion without intimacy the marriage cannot last. I can see the husband losing all interest in sex with his wife if the husband is the BS or if the husband is the WS. Sometimes a guy's mind is churning too much fo him to get aroused unless it is with a strange woman. In this case your husband or most any man can get aroused. But with you thoughts about the past, about what he did, about guilt feelings about a lot of things, interferes with his sexual performance with you. I don't know how long this might take to get over. I can understand it more if he was the BS and you were the WS but it's the other way around in this case. If your husband is having no more affair (? I wonder about this) then eventually you would think he would get a sexual urge again. You both need some new way to look at all this. I guess professional councelling is best if you are really stuck.

HI, After Shock,<P>My heart goes out to you in your pain, hon. I know all too well what you're going through. It has been one full year for me now, w/o hubby's loving arms around me or any type of affection (sex?? what's that? a question on an application?!). No one knows the full scope of this pain until they've experienced it, AS. You can imagine it, you can think about it, but to feel the pain of a separation like this is almost inhumane. <P>I have some encouraging words for you, though! Hang in there, AS. The very fact that he is still living with you and hasn't left you is a good sign. This fog WS's go through, and the withdrawal phase from it can take a very long time, as you well know by now. The more he comes out of the fog, the closer he will pull towards YOU. I have a mental image of this, check it out:<P>Think of YOU on one side of your H and the OW on the other. He is in the middle, and all of you are connected by this long rubber band. She pulls one way, you pull the other. Sometimes, he moves closer to her because her 'pull' is stonger. Other times, he inches towards you because your pull is stronger. Now, think of this in another way. If your pull is weaker, then he moves towards her. If her pull is the weaker of the two, he moves towards you. <P>In the beginning of an affair, it's the "stronger" of the two who will win. That's why the WS almost always goes over to the OP's side--the raging hormones and thrill of new territory is very strong. BUT, once the affair is exposed, the whole game changes. Now, we start thinking of it in terms of the weaker of the two 'losing.' Once the fog begins to lift, the raging hormones start to calm down. Replaced by guilt, shame, worry, anxiety and all that bad stuff, suddenly the thrill of it all starts to dull. The OW's pull actually becomes weaker; when that happens, the BS has more strength than they realize. Thoughts of home, children, holidays, past memories made together, etc., start to come back and suddenly, trading all that in for some cheap thrills doesn't seem so attractive any longer. Not only that, but when you start up a new relationship, you also take on all of the baggage that comes with the new person--and God only knows what-all that can entail. At least, with a spouse, you already know what that baggage is/was, and there are no nasty surprises!<P>AS, it takes time for people to really come to terms with withdrawal from the OP. I know that that's the main reason my H won't really make love to me yet, although he says it's his bad back and so on. However--and here is the good news--IF you can hang in there long enough, and show your H that you truly love him as a person as well as a mate, he will come around. The strongest "pull" anyone can feel is the way someone else makes us feel about ourselves. If you continue to hammer away at him to make love to you, you will only reinforce his present desire to avoid it. He'll feel bad about himself and you will be the one who made him feel that way. I caught on to this myself almost accidentally a couple of weeks ago and started to just ignore the whole topic. However, I continued to make myself as pretty as possible (good grooming and all that!), and just acted like myself in every other way, but I did NOT ask him once to touch me or anything else. I waited until he asked me to touch him first--which he inevitably did (probably worried about my sudden lack of interest). <P>Once they get over their boiling pot of negative feelings, AS, BS's can come around. I believe that they are dealing with a sense of loss, and guilt, self pity, insecurity, and residual hormone rage all at once. Just show patience and support to your H and sooner or later, he will like the way you are making him feel about himself. Once that happens, he will want to reach out to you. I am happy to report that my H is reaching out to me now and showing signs of being the way he was towards me before his EA mess. After nearly 9 months of sheer hell, suddenly there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it isn't an oncoming train!<P>Good luck, AS. You know you're on the right track, just keep that forward momentum going!<P>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny

after shock:<P>I really like what WinnyToo says...<P>That could be my strategy & why we are still intimate...I don't talk about it. <P>I have just subtly changed my wardrobe...(tighter, more form-fitting clothes)...and I do what I did...if he responds or initiates...I go for it...<P>Also, I have lost 40 lbs and am closer to my just married weight (10 lbs to go)...cut, colored and style my hair differently and, thank goodness, the psoriasis that I have over a large part of my body seems to be healing and disappearing...(weight, wardrobe and hair changes were done for ME to make me feel good...)<P>soooo, to make a long story short....do nice things for you, wear nice clothes for you...be sexy for you...he will notice....(just don't let him think it's for him....), be mysterious...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Well, I finally spilt the beans. Back before the 1st baby was born it was standard fare - morning, afternoon, night. When I was pregnant, we did it all the time, even up to the very last day (I know, some women won't even let their H touch them), between the two we did pretty good too. I guess the decline happened between a move, and school. He worked longer hours, about that time I started begging him to come home earlier, still long hours. Then promotion, longer hours, I thought he was so tired, so I left him alone. He only had one 5 mo. relationship - think in summer & first year of college, a girl he worked with at a restaurant, he went away to college, and when he returned for Christmas vacation, he dumped her. He had no girlfriends in high school, I say he was geeky.<P>I am thankful for what I have,a wonderfully nice man - a man who won't beat you, who is nice, smart, and a big help around the house. This non sex thing is really starting to get to me - I've even gone so far to tell him I'll go find someone to take care of me (oops, LB, that made him mad). We'll just have to see what he is like after being away for a week.<P>It's just this part - not to approach him - to let him make a move.<P>Cali, Winny, thanks for your responses.<P>Rodger - there is no sexual performance - he doesn't want it - with anyone - me, or anyone else. We've petted (ok, lets say I've petted), but gave up (why force someone to do something they don't want to do) - LB time. Weird, in counseling (1st session) he said "he didn't want to lead me on", that is weird, I'm his wife. I think the weirdest thing is that women will have sex with their H even if they don't enjoy it at all, because they know they have to have him happy. But you are right, and he knows that (he doesn't like the pressure thing - either you ... or I will leave). I would hate thinking I would have to to that, but there are marital responsibilities (even if you don't want to think of them that way).<P>The EA is over. She called in July 2000, so its been a year since he talked to her. He realized that he could not remain friends with her, that was in Aug 2000. He sent a postcard on vacation. We had 3 days until we left, and I was going to leave that night, when I asked him who he sent the postcard too, and he did not lie; and he could find his way home, if he wanted to. I don't want to leave, but I get so frustrated that I feel like leaving too, yet he won't let me - I'm the one that has brought up divorce, I don't want to hurt the kids, or the parents - once this is out - the hurt is never taken back - and that includes me too, in this situation. Something I will take to my grave, if I were a man I certainly would not want to have this on my conscious.<P>The other thing is the anxiety, and pain, being in this state of agitation is probably taking years off my life, because of the strife. And I just had an operation in April 2000, I was so happy to have the operation I would have leaped onto the operating table - and then to get slapped with this, how he stood by my side when I was so sick, only to get slapped down. He saw her in Feb, and March 2000. My operation in April - they did not start heating up until probably about that time, and until she did her visit trick - believe me, I could not wait to get her or her daughter out of my house.<P>Okay, I've said my piece, I really need to get over this EA thing, because it is not the issue, it is not the issue, it is not the issue. The issue is our marriage, our relationship, it is us, it is me, it is him. Thanks for hanging in there with me. I really thought I was going to lose it when I found out in June 2000 and after that. Pray he comes home with a healed mouth, and less back pain. I just think we don't get the amount of time we should spend together. He has been joking around with me now. Now if I could just fulfill his domestic needs. It seems like we go around in a viscious circle - no sex, no domestic stuff, no sex, no care to the house. He knows I feel this way, because I've explained what circle we are going in. He saw it too. <P>Okay, later, I'm gone - feel better, hugs, aftershock

Aftershock, I just read your post tonight. Its 11:30 here on the pacific coast. I wish I could hold you and let you cry it all out. I was crying for you while reading your post. I'm like dang, this sucks! I'm so new to this, and I really don't know what to say? Except, that I do know that God is with you right now. In your pain Heis there. I made myself a prayer closet and since the beginning of this nightmare I go there to talk with God. Hope this doesn't sound strange to you. What i do is let everything I feel, the pain, the anguish, the utter torment that it does to my mind I give it to him. I rock myself back and forth and I imagine God holding me and cradling me like you would an infant. He tells me how much he loves me and that no matter what the outcome of this is, He tells me that he will always be ther for me. He will never leave you AS. I understand part of what your going through. My H always wanted sex, and for awile he was very interested. We developed a policy of if either of us wants to make love we do. I have been completely into it all the time except once. But in the last 2 weeks, I feel him going down. I had an appt. with Steve yesterday and I said somethings up with my H. I feel it inside, but can't place it on anything. He's aloof, he's been gone twice here in town, without a definite time or where he was. He is slowly losing interest in me. ANd I'm not handling it very well. I don't know what to say to him. I don't know what to say anymore or not to say. I feel like i'm back at square one! I so wish I coulsdtake away your pain, all I can do is pray will give youn strength to make it through this.

I think I may have responded to one of your earlier posts that change the names and swap the genders and you're me - as far as the sexual fulfillment is concerned.<P>It IS extremely frustrating to endure a "libido gap" or "desire discrepancy." I lived with that for many years, so I understand completely what you're feeling. Absent an affair to complicate things, it seems that many couples go through this and it can be solved through counseling. I remember learning this by reading and researching before my wife's affair. She just didn't seem interested in working on it. Because we were also fighting our son's illness, I chose not to try to solve two problems at once.<P>Because of your H's EA, IMHO he has to get farther along in his recovery before you can tackle the sexual fulfillment EN. BUT - big disclaimer here - I certainly am not an expert on this - obviously. I failed miserably before my wife's affair.<P>Perhaps some former WSs can provide some advice about the recovery aspect. But it's hard for me to appreciate his lack of desire because I was in YOUR shoes. At one point in our early relationship, my wife was concerned that she was OVER sexed. Of course, I responded, "NO WAY!" So I wonder if it was me or her that changed, i.e., did I suddenly become less desireable? My SILs say it was my wife that changed. So, maybe for you, the problem is NOT you, but something in your H.<P>This may be getting incoherent. You will probably have to wait this out longer. Let him recover more and start working on ALL ENs together. Please don't go looking elsewhere and please don't try to make him jealous. Nothin but trouble with this stuff.<P>WAT

WAT -<BR>Thanks for your thoughts, I knew I could count on you. I am trying to physc myself up - leave him alone - don't mention it - just work on the domestic stuff - that's what he wants, do it for him (and me), just worry about how the house looks, and forget about the sex thing. Don't mention it.<P>Of course, this sex stuff has been at the absolute forefront of my brain and soul since he said "I'm not interested". BTW, I am starting to find out this is a COMMON problem, not only to my marriage, but alot of women deal with this. I have had to uncover this with alot of research. You are right, it is him. But he doesn't want me to leave him because he won't do it. And I have to forgive/forget about the crappy EA - at least he told me "if she were there it would be a different story", as long as he POJA about the situation. Hope he's been reading HNHN and taking it to heart.<P>It is so hard with just the daily push to live life, then to put this kind of a problem (and A's) in your life too.<P>Thank God, God gave us Dr. Harley, and the computer, and this web site to go forward. I was such a basket case for almost a year - it took this web site for me to lay off my H. Bug, bug, bug - talk, talk, talk. Now I am able to talk to him so much more coherently, and not lose my temper. He appreciates that and I appreciate it too.<P>Have a great day WAT, and everyone. Stamp out A's everywhere. hugs, aftershock

Hi Aftershock,<P>It took me a little while to read through your posting – but I did and I have some comments for you. First of all tho, a big hug to you. I don’t think I’d have the strength to go 15 months without love and affection – and somehow, you’re still there for your H. You’re some lady. And yes, you’re absolutely right, most H’s would love to have their Ws wanting love and sex. At least I would &#61514; Sometimes (I’m married 9 years) I really get fed up of initiating sessions and I’d just love my wife to take me – errr, if you know what I mean.<P>I really think Harley has his finger on the button here son let me tell you what I’ve learnt during the past weeks; Men get affectionate when sex is involved. And he’s right. It’s like it’s hard wired into us. To give you an example, my W complained that I only got affectionate in bed. She was right. So I’ve been trying to be very affectionate outside of bed. And guess what – it’s damned hard. Like I can show her affection and then bamn – if you know what I mean. I’ve also been trying this in bed – just hugs and kisses and nothing more. Guess what – again bamn – it’s like I just can’t keep the damn thing down. Now, I’m not a kid, I’m 41 and in good physical shape but it’s such a strong physical reaction that I can’t stop it. <P>Now, I also need to tell you that in the past, because my wife was hurting me I’d withdrawn from her. This meant that I played games on the PC, cooked, did the washing anything to avoid being with her. Silly me because she then gets involved with another man.<P>So, if your hubby is anything like me, and he’s playing with his PC or some such other time waster he’s probably avoiding you. If he’s not wanting sex as well, then he definitely is avoiding you. Now, here’s the difficulty and I tried to explain this to my wife. To make love to a women, I’ve got to be feeling affectionate. It’s that hard wired thing again. So, if I’m angry or upset I won’t be able to get over those feelings. Consequence is no sex.<P>I think you’ve got to get your husband to tell you why he’s angry or upset with you. Then you’ve got to help him get to the stage where he can put his arms around you and kiss you. Only then can you move to the next stage – which is petting. If you’re asking for it, it’ll turn him off big time. Go slow with him.<P>Good luck,<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by after shock:<BR>[B

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>To All - another long one . . . hope you can follow - it is pretty fragmented.<P>Here goes - I'll try and tackle this explanation. I've seen similar posts, but this is mine. I've been mulling this over for weeks to post. Hope I don't forget anything.<P> What a blow. Even so much to say, why can't we just live together without sex. Unbelievable. I'm suppose to be his wife, with no sex, and be happy. I've always been the one pretty much to approach, earlier in our marriage he did too, sometimes I was too tired, or I would fall asleep on his chest. I thought I might have hurt his feelings, saying not tonight. In October the agreement was I could not even bring up sex (us making love) until after the 1st of the year - I waited much beyond that. He claims it is okay for me to discuss now. Which I ask him quite a bit (every night of the week), "tonight?", oh course, tonight never comes. But he recently said I am being obsessive about it. (I've made semi-love one time in about 15 months, and I'm being obsessive about it). I even showed him where it says in the bible a H is suppose to give his body to his W, and the W is suppose to give her body to her H. He takes it subjectively, he says he doesn't have to give his body to anybody if he doesn't want to.<P>I get so frustrated about this situation, our marriage, the EA, thinking another woman fell in love with him (how could he let that happen?), that he fell in love with someone else (he did because he sent a rose, called from telephone booths, bought love cards for her, probably told her he loves her - I never asked, but . . .). I still cannot believe he snuck around behind me doing all of this. He went to our savings account to withdraw a bank draft for the rose. This thing is really sick. If a counselor read all of this, they would say "SICK". The e-mails (probably not much there), but the AOL Instant Messenger. Oh, the things I found in his daytimer, briefcase - wish to he** I'd found the love cards she sent him. I should have asked for them when we moved. Yes, I even had to make it across country like this, a basket case, crying all the time, in front of our children. Do you think he ever really gave me sympathy - he doesn't to this day - he doesn't acknowledge that I need to be comforted, because this hurts me so much. That he has torn our marriage up. Not to mention that OW and her d came and stayed with us for three nights. And I looked forward to their visit. I still remember shutting the door in D's face, when I asked to talk to him on Sunday afternoon after he showed her the picture album (one of our first ever knock-down- drag out fights in 13 years of marriage). We started fighting because of this, we even had a fight on Christmas Eve 2000 - I am not sorry about that one bit (a 17 yr old no less - sorry I am so heartless - I don't care if it hurt her one little bit, they were in my house, and her mother OW was causing problems - I could tell she was in love with my H).<P>Now, how statements change. A year ago he would say, the problems started 5 years ago with us. Recently I mentioned about how he said there were problems 5 years ago, and he changes his mind and says he doesn't really think it was that long ago. Must be fogese.<P>My H is the nicest guy - I just can't believe this came from him - how can you treat the one you spoke marriage vows to, and had your children, like this? He sat next to me for 3 days when we had our first d, he saw both of his children born out of me. You've been with for 14 + years, cooked, done his laundry, I'm not much at cleaning, but my house is not filthy. Recreation companionship, etc., etc. , supported him to the end of the earth in his career. But when d-day was happening, I saw a completely different person, angry, beligerant, nasty human being, to his children, and me. He was horrible. I know now (only because of MB) that it was a thick FOG. He is coming out of it slowly now.<P>So I know he is not completely void of sexual thoughts - he was sending her dirty jokes (one of them remained in the in box on our e-mail, and I found it). He is not void of "love" because of the content of the relationship cards he bought to send to her. And he sat and made mailing labels, and bought the stamps for the envelopes (a year ago). <P>I can't keep my hands off of him. I want to hug him, kiss him (he either always has a cancer sore or as of late his back has been hurting). He told me sometime at the beginning of the year that I need counseling because I want attention. So that is exactly what WE DO - we try and go after the need that we feel we need. Unfortunately, the time we planned SF, and he was looking forward, I LB'ed. He'll sit at our e-mail, and give the computer all his attention, and me none. He'll give the computer attention, his dogs attention, and the people he supervises care and attention, but he won't give his wife attention.<P>I really don't think I've changed about this attention issue. I told him from the very first that I need alot of love and attention. I never wanted children until I met him, because I always was afraid that the guy would leave - then I met him - and I was totally secure, like he would never leave or anything. My H really isn't a "Babe" looking - but to me I love the way he looks, and I loved that he loved me, and we are "we". He was special to me, and I thought I was special to him.<P>Like Dr. Dobson says, the spouse needs to lay off a bit for the other spouse to reciprocate. I really try to convince myself to not go to him and hug him, love him, kiss him. I can't help myself, I try, I try, but I can't stop myself. I get so frustrated that he does not reciprocate (it is probably boardering on depression, because I feel like crying alot), he says he'll do anything I want, sometimes I LB because I tell him to move into the spare bedroom, or I'll move into the spare bedroom, then he says that I picked out our bed so I should sleep in it. Sometimes I tell him that I'd just like for him to leave. About a week ago, I walked out of the house with just my purse and nothing else (my car was in the shop), he never knew I left, he was doing dishes, I came back before he knew I was gone). I just feel so hopeless sometimes. The rollercoaster isn't anything like it use to be last year - I just can't believe that he, of all people, could have done this EA. (He says it wasn't an affair - his way of justification - it was just a sophomoric/high school thing). At least he told me a couple of weeks ago after he had dinner with her parents (thank God they live out of state - I was so scared that she would try to go see him), that had she been there it would have been a different story. He just has to find out information about things, and the two couples were a way to discuss old things, and get brought up to date.<P>Even the night (June 2000 - a week after OW and her d had left) I caught him on AOL Instant Messenger, saying the love words I would say to him - to her. He claims those are words everybody uses - ANOTHER ONE to add to the Fogese Dictionary of excuses - I have news - those are my original words, no one says something like that. Then after our long 4 hour discussion, I said "Come on back to bed", AND HE's been there ever since. He is lucky I did not kick him out of the house. After I started telling him what was going on, and he denied it - then I caught him - I could hear the tap, tap, tap; and God got me up, so I walked in on him - wish I could have just calmly sat down at the computer, and said "Keep Going, I'd like to see and hear even more". Even tho he made me endure the crap of having the BITC* in our home (a family friend that does that is a real BITC*), because she wanted him and she thought she could get him. And, oh, he had to drive them to the college for the d to check out, and he went in and interviewed the whatever at the college, because he knew what to ask). Poor OW . . . she could raise 3 children, all in high school, drive all over the state to see her kids in sports, etc. But she can't make it to a college that she and her d are checking out - I haven't heard what college they picked - nor do I care. He probably heard from her parents a couple of weeks ago. We could not afford for me to go on this business trip, I wanted to, hopefully in the future if he ever has to go to that state I'll be able to go.<P>Yes, I have a very big heart, for everyone who is hurting, in strife, etc. Sorry to be so heartless here - but I really hate this woman, I really hate myself for allowing another family to come into our life and deal this blow. Yes, I take responsibility for myself, and what I feel I've done wrong in this relationship, but I've paid my dues. My heart and soul hurts. When is my H going to come back to his marriage, and properly take care of a H's part, ie. to love his wife like he is suppose to do? When is my H going to realize that he needs to love me and his family with all his heart, because there may not be a tomorrow. There may be (anything) that will take his family away from him, and he won't ever have it again - because it might be gone.<P>This is what nags at me everyday. Leave him alone, maybe he'll start changing. Maybe he'll start approaching, maybe he'll show love more. It seems he is void of showing intimacy and love (once long ago was not the case), but sure is now. Sometimes you just want to chuck the whole thing, and start all over. How can you devote any amount of time to your lifelong relationship, and have it crumble around you like this? I know I'm not perfect, I just wanted someone to love me. Just a simple request, some guy to love me. Because compared to some out there, I am a real gem. I am just a person, who wants to be loved, and give love back. I make mistakes and will apologize for those mistakes, just take this pain, depression, and frustration away. I know the thing is "take one day at a time", I am sick and tired of one day at a time, I am sick and tired of the fact that my H does not love me like he once use to love me. I have written him letter after letter. I am so unhappy. It just doesn't change. We went to MC, from Oct to Dec. We need to spend time together, but his job, my work, the kids, etc. We can't afford to send the kids to grandma/pas, so that we could have some time together. He does always sit down and talk to me about all this stuff whenever I need to talk, and usually I do a blow up job (LB) when he is the most tired.<P>We did the EN questionnaires, and we completed a marital recovery agreement, he is reading HNHN, finished SAA weeks ago. Maybe things will be different when he comes home from this business trip (I can hope), usually not much changes. He says I am too controlling, yet when he first met me he liked the fact that I actually thought about things. I don't understand, I just don't understand. Sometimes I feel like I am at the breaking point, there's nothing else to give - its all gone. He doesn't really care - its gone.<P>There's probably more to add, but after working on this for hours, I better stop. Feedback appreciated.<P>Not feeling like hugs today, aftershock</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>