I am so frustrated and don't know how to deal with this. WS cannot make up his mind but continues to regularly see OW (D-day was 4/21/01). I have patiently tried to discuss my feelings with him and help him to see that what he is doing is not acceptable. I have kept working on myself and doing what I needed to keep a healthy perspective on this. I thought I was being successful til I got ill with a strange virus and have had to rely on his help. I have become weepy and depressed cause I felt so ill that I was really finding it hard to deal with both (illness and A) <P>I gave him a Plan B letter a few weeks ago pleading with his sense of decency to consider the excruiating pain that I am in and asked him to make necessary arangements to leave until he could decide to end the A or the marriage. WS WILL NOT MAKE A DECISION AND DOES NOTHING TO WORK OUT ANY ARRANGEMENTS. <P>WS constantly verbalizes that "he does think he could ever be what I need, he can't open his soul to me and there is no way that the damage of A could ever be repaired." He admits he still loves me and does show it in small ways. He also does not want to leave the home we recently built and all that we have put into our marriage. <P>I feel WS could co-exist and live like this endlessly (living with me and seeing OW). IS that an option in Harley's MB principles????? He has the ability to detach from me and has even verbalized that he could live with me as he did his own thing. He is frozen and paralyzed in indecision. I fear this could go on and on and on. <P>Is this part of the process? I am starting to LB with my obessseion of him needing to make a decision. I do not want to leave my home cause I do not believe I should forfeit all the things I love here. He needs the discomfot of living elsewhere cause he has made a choice that is a major destroying factor in our marriage.<P>The reason for the A is baffling to me. He always acted like he could not commit to family life and did not want to have a emotional realtionship with a wife. I was the one all the time that struggled with his lack of indifference to our marriage. His drinking has been a major LB for years and my reaction to it has been my failure in the marriage.<P>Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated cause I fear living like this the rest of my life.<P>TW<P>

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time! ((((TW)))))<P>I hope some Plan B experts will come to your rescue soon, but wanted to let you know I care! <P>I don't think Plan B will work if he won't leave - unless you ignore him and do everything you can to avoid him. plan B is supposed to be no contact - sounds like you didn't stick with your plan B after you gave him the letter?? I don't know. I think you do have to ask yourself - do you have any strength and love left to give a good plan A another shot? If not, I'm not sure what your next step is. If you can search your soul and find the strength, Plan A is the way to go - a GOOD one - since D-Day was only 3 months ago. I have heard that we should try to plan A for 6 months - if we can.<P>Just my thoughts - I don't know if that helps any....<P>hang in there.... <BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

I know how you feel. D-day was 3 months ago also. My W is waffling too. She says she wants a D, but hasn't taken any action yet and is still at home, although sleeping on the couch.<P>I haven't pressured her at all. I'm leaving it up to her and trying to give her some time and space. It's all I can do. I don't know how much longer I can plan A.<P>sad dad

TW, how's it going today? Give us an update. Can you Plan A a little longer?<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Tossed,<P>I am not really an expert in Plan A or B, but I do think from what I know that you are correct. Your H cannot commit, will not make a decision, and will go on like this as long as he can. He sounds as though he does love you, but is paralyzed by *losing* what he has. He has a loving wife and new home so there is much guilt there. He has done something he knows is wrong so there is much embarrassment there. He has someone to run to whenever he wants to (for whatever reason), and that is a strong draw when you are in a fog. He is indecisive because he has to be to protect himself. If you make the decision to throw him out or divorce him, he is absolved of responsibility and doesnt have to be wrong again. If you decide to let him stay, you are admitting that you love him, and he still has the best of both worlds. He has created safety nets all the way around. You are one in case the OW dumps him. She is one, in case you dump him. The old excuse of you deserving someone else or not being able to recover from the A is, again, a way for the WS to justify and rationalize things in their own mind. If the M doesnt work out, they already have their built in excuse. If it does, then keeping you close to him was the right decision for him. He has to build in reasons for failure and success to make himself feel better. But, in the meantime, he stays in the indecision mode so that he cant be wrong. To my way of thinking, not making a decision, is a decision.<P>He is going to put the responsibility for decision making on you and OW. As long as she will put up with you being in the picture, he is safe. When either of you upset his fantasy, he will immediately run to the other for comfort and affirmation that hes doing the right thing. I haven't seen a better tug-of-war than the one he has going on right now. <P>If you haven't done so, get Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley. Make sure to read Plan A and Plan B so that you know what your next step is. The key is going to be putting him in a position where you set him up to where he has to make a decision, but feel like it is you that is doing it, if that makes any sense at all. <P>Hang in there and try to have a good day!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

I think trueheart is exactly right. WS thinks that it is OK NOT to make a decision. If you say you have had it and want out, then he can blame you for the demise. In the meantime, he can run to you if he needs to, but also keep up the A and not risk "losing" the great thing he has with OP. I was in a very similiar situation with my WS. I think it is important to make WS decide, but cut through the fog and clearly make them realize the consequences of continued indecision and hurt for you and M. You may be surprised at their shock--hey there ARE consequences to their actions whether they like it or not.<P>I think, especially if he is still at home and torturing you this way, it is now your time to lay things out for WS. (my WS had moved out already). At this stage I wrote my WS a very long, loving, but firm letter stating that she could take as long as she wanted to decide (we as BS's all learn sooner or later that you cannot push a WS where they don't want to go). However, you also have a life to live and do not desrve to be treated as if you have no feelings. I told her to take all of the time she wants, but there were certain consequences to continued indecision;<P>1) the longer indecision goes on the less likely we will EVER be together again.<P>2) I will use this indecision time to my benefit, and live my life as though we are not together anymore.<P>3) If you eventually decide on our M, it will then be up to me as to whether to continue, but I have always loved you and continue to love you through all of this mess. It is also up to WS to trust that you will (or will not) be there when (or if) they decide to end their mess with OP.<P>May seem harsh, and I will say that it did not immediately work for me, but it definately did cut through some of the fog and at least made WS realize what she was giving up by thinking that fence sitting was to her benefit. Indecision wears the BS out, WS's don't realize this because they are not wearing out...they are continuing to think that they will always have you to fall back on no matter what...is this really true? Can he sit on the fence forever and not affect the chances of any future recovery of A? I say no, and I would let him realize this.<P>I hope I have not sent a message that may self destruct things, but I thought I would share my experience as my former WS and I are over eight months into a very promising recovery. Maybe others would plan A longer. It depends on how much you and your M can take. <P>Good Luck<P>JB<P>

JB, I've employed much the same tactic as you, and have come under fire from several people for not abiding by true Plan A/ Plan B principles. But every situation is different. I plan on called Dr Harley sometime soon and I have a feeling he will agree that this tactic is best for my situation (and maybe yours as well).<P>I tried to hold on and be the doormat, but the problem is that I have been doing that for such a long time even before the affair and I don't think it is healthy for our marriage to keep on making the same mistakes. She knows what she needs to do, and she even knows what she wants, but just refuses to let it go (the affair). This fog behavior of indecisiveness is what will lead her to destroy our marriage. The time she has had to herself, she has spoken to him less and less, because she is thinking of me more and more. To me, that is a sign of improvement and I am going to stick it out!

GodlyMan,<P>I know that some of what I wrote and did is not exact MB principles. I would like to clarify though, that w/o MB and my learning and utilizing some of the principles and the threads of those that come here, my marriage would most definately be over right now. No lie.<P>But, as you said, each situation is different. How long is a good plan A? How strict of a plan B should I follow? When is it right to give more "tough love"? I don't have the answer to these questions. They are all plans to mend the M and are all good in that respect. I guess I have found, so far (recovery game still ongoing), that what worked for me was a combination. No, I didn't plan it out that way...I was way to devastated to do much of any planning. But I did what felt was right at each stage and what I thought my W would respond to at the time. it is all each of us can do, and it is what each of us must figure out in order to make a go of this recovery thing.<P>JB

HI tossed- I feel your pain. I can remember being in plan A for 3 mo and the frustation!Tried plan B too but let him move back home when he said we would reconcile then he went right back to waffling and sleeping on the couch. I refused to file for D on him but I had to hire a lawyer when he filed on me due to OW"s pressure.Plus he felt so guilty deep down that he convinced himself that I would be better off without him.He was sure he wanted a D when he filed but changed his mind just one day later. We have 3 kids and a new house and he wanted a dissolution to save money-thats where you both agree to a divorce due to mutual differences. Less lawyers involved. I told him NO WAY would I ever agree to that- that God is against divorce and I wont file for it or agree to it. When he filed on me I told him he better find a place to stay besides our couch because my lawyer would do paperwork to make him move out within a few wks. He FREAKED! Said he expected to stay in our house the whole time D was going on and then split custody. I told him I was going for main custody and then moving and starting my life all OVER somewhere else. When he really thought about all this he changed his mind about the D and now we are several months into recovery and its going well. Good luck getting yours off the fence. The pain was excruciating for me while it was going on for several months. lifeismessy

I can relate to all of you. This waffling is so painful! My WH will do something that devestates me, then something slightly nice so I get my hopes up again.<P>Thurs. night we had a fight - he said there's no way we can work things out. I should hate him for what he's doing & we'll never be the same. He said I had to move out because I first had an affair & that's what really ruined our marriage. Although mine's been over almost a year now, he started one several months ago. He left, then came back a few minutes later, we both cried & agreed to take it one day at a time because he didn't want to do anything "drastic" & make the biggest mistake of his life. <P>He again left & said he'd be home by 8 Fri. morning (my birthday) & we planned to celebrate when I got home from work. I didn't see him Fri. morning, nor did he ever call. I spent my birthday all alone. He finally came home at 6 Sat. night. I found out he had gone out of town but "thought of me the entire time". Not enough to make a phone call I guess. I'm sure it was because he was with OW. He promised to make it up to me, was very apologetic, but so far has done absolutely nothing.<P>Now I'm waffling between continuing Plan A & moving on to Plan B. The problem is that neither one of us want to leave our house. I think he should because he's currently having an affair, he thinks I should because I ruined our marriage by having one in the first place...

Thanks everyone for responding. I am a little depessed today cause feelings of being trapped in a uncommitted, unconnected marriage is so devastating to me. I know many women who have lived with their WS and lived with many OW situations. Like Lady Bird Johnson and an aunt of mine.....how do they do that? I can't shut off the feelings of doormat or being insignificant, second rate, used. <P>Trueheart---You definitely spelled out the scenerio to the tee. I think I hear you saying that more pressure is needed to express the hurt and pain I am trying to bear with this OW situation going on? I confront him everytime he is late and I know he was with her. I verbalize all the pain and heartache and we have talked til we are blue in the face. Some kind of action has to be taken and maybe it has to come from me. I do not know what though. I have thought of calling OW hoping to put a little pressure there but I think I will be doing it out of revenge. (Vengeance belongs to God) I do not want to open my heart to bitterness. <P>Not sure I understand Plan A when WS is hardly ever available to me. He seems to only be here to sleep. I did not buy SAA yet...been reading it at Barnes & Noble so not sure I understand it all or how to apply to my situation. Then again I was told (and Harley states it an article) that you can't Plan A a WS with a drinking problem which is what my H has had for all of our marriage. More hopelessness......can't see any answers or have any hope of anything. <P>Why do we need to have these pathetic, troubled people in our lives and how come it is so easy for some to just let them go????? I know BS who did not let WS stay in the home one minute after d-day. They seem healthier than some of us who are trying to save it all.<P>Johnny ballgame---You said --"I think it is important to make WS decide, but cut through the fog and clearly make them realize the consequences of continued indecision and hurt for you and M." Give some examples of tough love tactics you used and how you made the consequences clear. I almost feel I have to see a lawyer and show him proof I will file for divorce if nothing changes.<P>I know you guys don't have MY answers but your experiences are so helpful and thanks for letting me get out some much needed venting. I have been home sick for a couple of weeks so I know I will be able to get out from under when I can get back into the real world<P>TW<BR>

Plan B changes the dynamics of what is occurring. More certainly, it shifts the control from the disrespectful WS to the suffering BS. It interjects an element of "what if" into the mix. In Plan B, WS no longer has the guarantee that BS will continue to tolerate the pain of their behavior indefinitely. Suddenly they can't be so sure of things and if they will have their comfortable life to go back to when(and we know it is when NOT if) things don't work out with OP. It puts you in control of YOU and relieves you from the pain and influence of your WS.<P>Plan B is not giving up! WS needs motivation to make the necessary steps to come home. If there is no consequence to their behavior and they see that BS will wait in Plan A for what may seem indefinitely they have no reason to give up what is bringing them pleasure.<P>There are risks to a long Plan A. The continued destruction of your self esteem over a long period of time can make resentment extremely difficult to move past should the marriage get a chance at rebuiling.Rebuilding, after so much has been destroyed, is very difficult, even in the best of circumstances. Plan A can be seen by a WS (who is continuing in the A) as BS being so weak and needy that they will tolerate the utmost in disrespect at any cost and that is not attractive. It is my opinion that unless you have been a horrendous,terrible spouse and have many,many changes to make and prove to your WS, you are prolonging the suffering by remaining in Plan A for more than a couple of months.<P>I was not one who could tolerate an ongoing A. I had not been a horrible spouse.Like most of us here, I was distracted and less than attentive to a FEW of my WS's ENs. I had some changes to make but nothing so great that I felt I had to endure the tremendous pain of H continuing to carry on with OW. I was not willing to share my H with another and let him know it. <P>I let him know I was sorry, and that I understood my part in our marriage getting to the place it was in. I told him and began to show him that I would change those things.I told him I loved him and could forgive him and that I would not hold his mistake over his head forever. I also told him that it was her or me. He gave her up rather quickly, took him a couple of weeks before all contact ended. Then he couldn't decide if he was meant to be married or not. That hurt just as much as the affair. He moved out a month after d-day to have some time to think things through (OW was 400 miles away). I supported his need to move out for awhile but told him that if I was going to parent alone I was going to get support from others who knew exactly what I was going through. I went to Parents Without Partners.He was faced with the POSSIBILITY that if he didn't want me someone else just might, even though this was the farthest thing from my mind or intention it was enough to shake him out of the fog.<P>I have said before that we often take our spouses for granted and they become like an old toy that was once the best thing we ever owned and could never put down. After awhile it loses it's interest and ends up at the bottom of the toybox, ignored and neglected but still beloved (I love you but am not "in love" with you). We sometimes even get another toy that we think we love just as much or even more (when its new ie: OP). BUT have another child dig up that old lost toy and find it facinating and wonderful and want it for their very own and suddenly the child will shout "THAT'S MINE". I had no intention of looking for another man, I really didn't need the support, but it certainly wasn't manipulative to insist that I did under the circumstances and it certainly was a powerful tool to make WS realize that he had a lot to lose if he didn't get his act together. It saved me many night of pain and tears. He moved home 2 months after he moved out and was here most weekends and some weeknights. Letting WS see the strong,independent, unwilling to suffer to the point of collapse you, can change things just as much as a prolonged Plan A. It is a scary thing to do, no doubt, I was scared out of my mind but it brought the much needed results much,much faster than allowing WS to sit on the fence until he felt good and ready to get off. <P>

tossedwave - PLEASE buy SAA so you can read it and have it for a reference.<P>I'll postulate that you went to Plan B too early - maybe because you didn't understand. That's OK. Plan B really can't be done while you're still living together. It requires no contact between you.<P>Please consider cutting your losses and go back to Plan A. This means fixing all the problems you contributed to the marriage, although with your H's drinking problem, your contributions may not be much. But fix EVERY complaint he has - even the trivial ones. Plan A is about removing ALL the reasons he has for the affair that he attributes to you. You have to demonstrate the changes before he leaves.<P>When you get to the point that you can no longer avoid lovebusting (even though your anger may be justified) and he is gone, THEN you shift to Plan B. This cuts off all the things you provided to him - including you as whipping boy.<P>Understand a little better?<P>WAT

We must all realize that we can never be "perfect" for someone else. WS have problems of their own that run very deep emotionally and they could potentially come up with an endless "list" of what we have done wrong or not good enough. We must fix ourselves to the best of our own ability and to what we are satisfied and comfortable with. Another person's wants and demands will always change and if they are not within reason, changing ourselves to please someone else can lead to a very humiliating existence.JMHO.

Wow, WAT.. That is what I was thinking, and what i wanted to say, but not confident enough to say it, and I certainly couldn't say it as well as you. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Wow. I had to reply because I to am in the same boat only longer. My Ws wife has been with OM over a year. I first discovered in june 2000 with a phone bill. I let her snow me and by Jan. 2001 I had phone conversations for her for D-Day. Well here we are 7 months of Plan A, Threats of divorce, single therapys, joint counceling and last week she finally said she ended it. She was on the fence in a 100 scenarios. She is by far the Waffle Queen. To make matters worse I believe she is back in contact, just last night we had a hughe fight over it, and her sister kind of acknowledged it. I too dont know what to do, I called her last night from work to tell her I was going to get a court order to have her removed from the house and kids, and by the end of the conversation she was going to a lawyer and I wasnt.<BR> Today she is deciding what she wants. Boy dont that sound familiar. So I too am Like you, and the waffleing continues...........<BR> I dont have the answer, Im hoping this thing winds down. I cant leave the house and Im not strong enough to throw her out. Good luck, just want you to know it isnt as easy as people write. Bill

What I did was far from easy. I certainly had no guarantees. Neither Plan A nor Plan B gives you any guarantee,life gives no guarantees. <P>If my H had chosen to leave the marriage I certainly wasn't going to be a prize package for someone else with three kids, one of whom is multiply handicapped and will never function above the level of a 3-5 year old. I would have most likely ended up alone for the rest of my life. What it came down to, for me, was that I knew I would be better off alone and sane than living in the emotional turmoil and hell my H had brought into our lives. I also had to think seriously about the message I was sending to my kids by allowing the emotional abuse of the affair to continue.<P>Most endeavors that produce fruit are not easy and come with elements of risk.My marriage was saved by nothing less than the grace of God and He intends us to live abundantly in His will.<BR>

mthrrhbard---your thoughts are making sense to me and I agree with you that I have not been a horrible spouse that needs more major changing. My H has admitted that I have done nothing to deserve this. He even said a few weeks ago that maybe if he moved out, he would learn to appreciate me and not take me for granted. Before the A, I continually had been making significant changes in myself and always trying to work on our marital problems. I was always available to him as much as he would let me in and I have made an effort to put his concerns before mine and have repeatedly asked him if I was demeaning or condescending as a wife. He says no. He has not really pinpointed anything I can grab a hold of and change. All his comments are that HE can't open up, HE can't understand why he keeps hurting me, HE can't change etc etc etc. He is so firm about never being able to change. His resistance to change is the major thing that scares me and keeps me so hopeless. thanks for helping me see this. <P>I have verbalized everything suggested here...letter explaining my love and committment but inability to handle this pain. I repeatedly tell him that I can't do this anymore. Words are not working or penetrating. Some kind of action on my part is needed and I am not sure what that is. The only thing I can think of is seeing a lawyer for a legal separation. Any advice out there about doing this. Never had anything to do with lawyers and legal matters so I am IN THE DARK><P>TW

Tossed,<BR> My H too was very resistent,mentally, to thinking he could not change, that he just was the way he was and that there was someone else out there that could be a better partner for me. He was so torn up over what he had done that I was lucky he went to counseling. A lot of his problem stemmed back to an abandonement issue concerning his mother when he was a young teenager and he had harbored much anger about it. He felt I had abandoned him in the same way when our handicapped son came along and I had to attend to his multiple needs. That is what I meant about not being a horrible spouse, I was just distracted doing what I felt needed to be done and what no one else would help me do. H saw me as his mother. He worked this out in counseling. It hurt me badly as I felt I was being punished for being a good mother. My H was depressed and took anti- depressants for a short time but long enough to make him realize that the depression he had been denying for years was in fact a reality.<P>Hang in there and be strong. It is very scary but prolonged suffering is not productive for anyone involved. Good luck with the legal stuff. I know it is intimidating and seems so final. I am glad we didn't have to get that far but I sure thought about it and had called a lawyer myself. When our spouses refuse to protect us we must protect ourselves.

mthrrhbard---My H also has abandonment issues. His dad died when he was 3 and we think he and his brothers were taken away from his mom. The 2 brothers (my H being one of them)lived in a boarding home til they were in high school. I do believe my H projects his feelings for his mother on to me and our relationship. I also feel like I have represented motherhood to him and somehow he sees me in that role. This must be why he is 55 and needs a 26 yr girlfriend. <P>Real great for me to be "discovering" all this----it does little good for me to have any revelations about him when he does not have a clue as to what makes him do what he does. He asked a very VALUABLE question about two weeks ago. He said "I feel like the bad guy----why am I so bad and what is it inside me that has caused me to have an A and do something like this?" I told him that was an excellent question and he needed to find the answer to that for himself. It would probably change his life.<P>Speaking of God's abundant life----I am struggling with what God really wants for me in this life. I treasure his help and strength but I go from one major crisis after another. I have plenty materially and am so thankful but emotionally, I feel like I am always running on empty and trying to dodge all the pain that seems to be flying at me. I often wonder, too, if God wants me to live with an unfaithful husband. I can't escape the "suffering saint" syndrome.<P>Your realizing it is better to live alone and sane is exactly where I find myself alot lately. My entire married life has been filled with pain cause my H has a drinking problem. The A is just the grand final and has all the same wayward, non-committal elements to it that living with a drinker does.<P>Thanks for listening----I hope you and your spouse continue to recover and draw closer together. You sound like you have learned alot and the wisdom you gained will benefit others.<P>TW