Is it normal for the BS to only want to talk about superficial things during the withdrawal stage. My W (supposedly) told OM that they could no longer have contact about 2 weeks ago. We have done things together almost every day since (we are not living together though). The problem is that we only talk about superficial things and NEVER about us except for in counseling. And there is absolutely no affection going on right now - no kissing, no hugging, not even holding hands. She is also very moody and sometimes very quiet and sullen. Are these things normal for the withdrawal phase?<P>S&C

Dear S&C,<BR>I don't know if it's normal or not, but this is pretty much my own situation w/ my H who was the WS. We can talk about anything and everything--and are very civil towards each other. But "you know what" is off limits (his choice). <P>I think that this is entirely normal because of all the negative emotions and feelings the person going through withdrawal is experiencing. <P>Remember back when you were a kid and you got caught by your folks doing something you shouldn't? How would you feel being constantly reminded of it, and asked to repeatedly talk about it, unless or until you were ready to talk about it?<P><BR>I think that when the sting of guilt and shame temper down with time, our spouses will feel more comfortable opening up to us and talking about it. My H is almost there--after all, his A was a year ago and my D day was 9 months ago. We are still too close to the situation, but he is worlds better than he was just a couple of months ago.<P>Good luck to you!<BR>Winny<BR>

Sadandconfused, I guess only each one of us knows what's "normal" (that poor word..we humans sure ruined it ) for us.<P>I am the WS and H was VERY quiet at first. Very angry at OM (his anger at me was mostly during the A and of course, after but not as great once I confessed--he knew I was lying and that's just not my normal nature) It is only know approaching 5mos+ that he is beginning to ask me the painful questions.<P>For myself, I was so furious with myself that I was extremely moody and angry. Not fun to be around! Even as I got better, when I tapped into my rage at OM finally (he is a predator) I experienced horrible depression. <P>Finally, I'm on the other side. Things have improved so much incrementally and now we can see those baby steps have become a giant leap. <P>Give your spouse time. I guarantee there is shame, embarrassment and fighting temptaion to make contact. I go through these phases where I want to contact OM but not really for pleasant reasons or to renew! I have found lately that sometimes I think of emailing him as a friend and have to remember--what on earth for??? I think those thoughts are because this is the time last year I started to let things get way out of hand. <P>I can't comfort or encourage you in the same way a BS can but as a WS in very happy recovery, I can offer you some hope that if you give your spouse room and love, things could improve. That's our hope for you anyway, friend. <P>------------------<BR>Fresh Start

My WS is the same way. We have not talked about A since April 1st. Things are somewhat normal and we talk about everything else, but she just doesn't go there. I told her, in a letter, that I would wait until she is comfortable to talk about it. We are not in counseling, ( she will not go because of bad experience as a kid). we have become more affectionate, hugs and small kisses when leaving or going to sleep. She still sleeps apart from me and she still keeps her toiletries in her make up bag. It is torture, but most of the time I think this is working, other times I think I am wasting my time. My take on it , at least today, is As long as you are talking and The WS is not running away, it is better, and since she came back in March, things have gotten much more comfortable and somewhat normal

Mark,<BR>I'm glad things are going better for you, but I have a question: why does your W keep her toiletries in her makeup bag? Do you feel she is hiding something from you, and if so, what? Just curious is all! I just can't imagine why a woman would keep these things out of her H's sight.<P>Hugs...<BR>winny

No, I don't think she's hiding anything ( I've snooped). I think it's her way of not totally committing to being there. That's my theory. She also has not put away her gym bag that she took when she first left( although everything except one change of clothes and Dr Phil's book I gave her has been taken out. I believe it's all related to not being sure yet. In my snooping I also discovered that she has gone off her birth control pills. I am not sure what that means. I am glad for her health sake that she has, but she hasn't told me about it.

Withdrawal does crazy things to WS. I am not justifying or rationalizing for us/them, but only wanting to talk about superficial things, not fully committing to anything...these are all done for WS to keep themselves safe, for the time being. <P>Sadly, like the BS, when they go through Dday, Ws feels totally alone at this point. Up to now, when BS got on us, we ran to OP. When we had problems with OP, we ran home to our spouse. We had created an intricate safety net/web, in which we were never alone and had all of our EN met. Now, for the first time, cant count on OP, feel we dont deserve BS since we are being judged, watched, evaluated. So we find the nearest cave, run in, and pull the rock over the opening. It is done in defense and safety. We dont have to talk, open up, be honest with anyone...<P>It takes time for us to believe in ourselves, just as it takes time for BS to want us around, trust us, believe us...it is a process, just like the rest of it. I think sometimes, the BS can be like the WS in that they expect things to change right away. WS expect the BS to *just get over it* and BS expect WS to *just open up to me* right away. Those couples that are truly in recovery have been lucky enough to find that balance of communication and understanding. It is a delicate balance, and one that can be very frustrating. It is sort of the Chicken vs. Egg argument all over again. <P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Thank you all for you comments. Each of you has shed some light on the situation. I think I am starting to have an understanding of what is going on within her mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trueheart:<BR><B>Withdrawal does crazy things to WS. I am not justifying or rationalizing for us/them, but only wanting to talk about superficial things, not fully committing to anything...these are all done for WS to keep themselves safe, for the time being. <P>Sadly, like the BS, when they go through Dday, Ws feels totally alone at this point. Up to now, when BS got on us, we ran to OP. When we had problems with OP, we ran home to our spouse. We had created an intricate safety net/web, in which we were never alone and had all of our EN met. Now, for the first time, cant count on OP, feel we dont deserve BS since we are being judged, watched, evaluated. So we find the nearest cave, run in, and pull the rock over the opening. It is done in defense and safety. We dont have to talk, open up, be honest with anyone...<P>It takes time for us to believe in ourselves, just as it takes time for BS to want us around, trust us, believe us...it is a process, just like the rest of it. I think sometimes, the BS can be like the WS in that they expect things to change right away. WS expect the BS to *just get over it* and BS expect WS to *just open up to me* right away. Those couples that are truly in recovery have been lucky enough to find that balance of communication and understanding. It is a delicate balance, and one that can be very frustrating. It is sort of the Chicken vs. Egg argument all over again. <P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>HI, TH!<BR>Your post answered a LOT of questions that were rattling around in my head! You explained perfectly what my H seems to be going through. A lot of what he does doesn't seem to make any real sense, but viewed through your glasses, it does make some sense. <P>Now, one thing that I think is related to this is his sudden interest (for lack of a better word) that I might be considering an A! Of course, this is sheer imagination on his part--I have no desire whatsoever to even look at another man. But, he is dealing with his own guilt and is worried, I know, that his miseerable behavior towards me this past year may push me over the brink. How can I get him to relax and understand that I love only HIM...and am not interested in having an affair?? Any advice you could give me? Is this a common reaction for WS's going thru the WD phase?<P>Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom you can give me!<BR>Hugs...<BR>Winny

Mark, you wrote:<BR>"In my snooping I also discovered that she has gone off her birth control pills. I am not sure what that means.?<P>Er...ah...do you mean she's gone OFF the pills, as in not taking them? Or do you mean she's taken off with them to someplace else?? If she has gone off the pills, the answer is one of two things. Either she wants a baby, or she is having some physical problems staying on them (her dr. may have told her to stop taking them.)<P>If she has taken OFF with them, then that isn't such a good sign now, is it? Could it be she just ran out of them and didn't bother to have them refilled? Personally, this is one question I would ask her about. After all, if the possibility is that she wants a baby, that would most certainly concern YOU, wouldn't it? One would at least hope so!<P>Hugs...<BR>Winny

Hiya Winny!<P>I dont know about typical, but it sure entered my mind a lot!! One of the things that made me realize what I had done, was the sheer thought of what it would be like to think of her with another man! I know it sounds weird, but it made me fight like hell to show her I was the only man she needed. But, I did go through the period, before my revelations, of blaming her for the A, finding fault with her snooping...yada yada yada. Then I went through the phase of realization that I screwed up and didnt deserve her, didnt deserve forgiveness..yada yada yada!! (damn..lots of yadas in recovery huh?)After that, all I could think of was what my life was like without her in it, visualizations of her with someone else and me all alone(which I believed I deserved), yada, yada, yada!!!<P>The only thing I was determined to do at that point was show her how sorry I was, how much I loved her, how much I realized it was my fault and that I would do all I could to repair the damage I caused. As far as him not feeling you are going to have a *revenge* A, you just have to sit him down, talk to him, and let him know it is not going to happen. Just like everything, it takes time!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

sad- yes what you describe is VERY normal for withdrawal. We went thru the same exact thing 2mo ago for about 6 wks. H had FINALLY ended the A for the last time but still slept on the couch and showed me NO affection. It was SO hard to take. He did finally agree to go to a marriage counselor with me who insisted that we NOT try to show affection or talk about the A for the next month or so. He said that would be emotionallly too raw and damaging for us to deal with for awhile. So even though it seemed artificial we followed that. Eventually H's feelings for me seemed to come back all in a rush and the affection returned the same way. Our counselor DID have us make a list of small things to do for each other to improve the atomosphere around our house- we each chose about 5 small things to show each other we cared about each other and marked off each time we did them. This helped start to restore our good will toward one another. Prepare for at least 6 wks of the withdrawal phase. Its rough but worth it if you can get thru it. lifeismessy

To lifeismessy,<BR> Just how many times did your H end his A? My H hasn't seen OW since d-day but she keeps contacting him by v-mail, e-mail or pager then he replies. She says she's giving him time to make a decision but she's giving him no time. I am in Plan A now and would like details about how your situation unfolded. (I'm pretty new here.)<BR>Thanks,<BR>LMH<P>------------------<BR>Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer. Romans 12:12

trueheart....<P>Your first post.....wow, are you Miss Cleo? If sounds just like my H(WS) and myself.<P>One question...Are you, or have you been to counseling, either alone or with your spouse? And what do you think the chances are if the WS isn't willing to go to counseling?

Dear Sad&conf<BR>Once they have decided to withdraw, it is hard to get them back. My W did not withdraw to an affair, but to medical school (when men are in medical school, it is called the mistress). Now that we have seen several therapists, she has revealed that she was never in love with me. In our nearly 30 yrs of marriage, it is clear that she has expressed her dissatisfaction with the marriage through increased silence and distance (a pattern that was very easy for her, since this response to social problems had been well-established in her childhood).<BR>My own observation is that a withdrawing spouse is, perhaps, harder for the H, since sexual contact by the W is likely to be withdrawn, while the withdrawing H can, in many cases be drawn back into the marriage, or at least kept interested in it, by the W providing sexual contact. <BR>You are absolutely correct, the withdrawal of contact, except for superficial things is very hard. W hasn't reached out to me physically in years. I have to initiate every kiss or hand hold. After awhile, the constant pursuit is very wearing when it is never returned. <BR>In our local news, there is a well known case of a woman doc who was killed by H (he then shot himself) leaving 2 younger kids. The parallels are scary, since the doc had a sister die of a disease that claimed my sis in law a yr ago! Also, the doc is in the same field as my W.<BR>Personally, a friend (aquaintance, really) just made a second suicide attempt--this too, involved serious marital problems.<BR>It does seem to be a fact that marital conflicts are much harder for men to get through, regardless of the outcome. The women may struggle, but they make it through, by and large. <BR>I am really struggling with the fact that I am talking about this stuff, trying to acknowledge problems, and move to needed solutions. This has been dragging along since 97 when she moved out to take a job opportunity in another state--retroactively, she described it as a separation. OUCH!<BR>My faith in therapists is at an all-time low, since they are wowed by Ws accomplishments--also, she is articulate in therapy (contrasted with silence at home)<BR>It seems impossible, but there are baby steps toward progress. By the time things are salvaged, various important body parts probably won't work<BR>r

Vernon...<P>I have been through counselling on my own, and so was she. From our counselling apart, we were actually able to begin working on our own issues, and we talked about our sessions with each other. We sort of did our own couple counselling on our own, if you can understand that? We talked about our individual sessions, and that helped us as a couple!<P>I am not sure, given the individual, that a couple can make it if one is not willing to get some type of help. I suppose it can happen, but there are usually issues surrounding communication, fears, and honesty, that a counselor needs to deal with. I think, as in our case, working on the individual, to seek answers to things has to happen first. I dont know that a person is strong enough, knowledgeable enough, or honest enough to do that alone. So, long answer to short question. I think the possibilites are much slimmer.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Winny, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question, I've been busy. She has stopped taking them and as far as my concern, well it doesn't really matter to me, because we haven't been intimate since October. She hasn't even slept in our bed with me since 2 days after DDay. It does matter to me of course, I'm being a bit sarcastic, but I am waiting until after she has her first review at her new job to begin my attempts at getting her to talk. This is her dream job and I want her to go into this review feeling good about herself. I may be a fool, but at least I'm a considerate fool.

Winny, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question, I've been busy. She has stopped taking them and as far as my concern, well it doesn't really matter to me, because we haven't been intimate since October. She hasn't even slept in our bed with me since 2 days after DDay. It does matter to me of course, I'm being a bit sarcastic, but I am waiting until after she has her first review at her new job to begin my attempts at getting her to talk. This is her dream job and I want her to go into this review feeling good about herself. I may be a fool, but at least I'm a considerate fool.<BR>