This is from another post, and I didn't want to divert the discussion there, so I started a new thread.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mthrrhbard:<BR><B>Plan A can be seen by a WS (who is continuing in the A) as BS being so weak and needy that they will tolerate the utmost in disrespect at any cost and that is not attractive. It is my opinion that unless you have been a horrendous,terrible spouse and have many,many changes to make and prove to your WS, you are prolonging the suffering by remaining in Plan A for more than a couple of months.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is this really true? Because this is the way I feel! I know I've made mistakes and been somewhat inattentive to some needs my wife has that I never realized, but she never communicated those needs to me and I just let everything slide. I feel like I've "let everything slide" for a long time and Plan A-ing is just me, being the same way I've been. When I stand up for myself and be strong and make solid decisions, she actually looks at me in a different light. Maybe she doesn't want a doormat? That's what she's had for just over two years of our marriage.<P>When I stood up for myself and told her I couldn't stand to see her waffle, and pretend to love me, when she was making intimate phone calls with him in our house, she respected that and stayed with her mother. And then she started approaching ME for attention and asking ME to dates!<P>Maybe I am self-destructing our marriage by Plan A ing? I need to call Dr Harley, I guess. This is a different situation, I believe.<P>------------------<BR>

GodlyMan:<P>It is possible that if one of your wife's primary emotional needs is to have a husband who is a 'strong decision-maker' who communicataes well---and you haven't been, then a poorly-executed plan A might not help you too much (it's unlikely to do much damage either).<P>I really believe that you ought to discuss this with Steve---he's the expert. However, Plan A also includes honesty about how you feel---and that's the part that may not be clear to you. You need to word your honesty so it is free of disrespectful judgements and selfish demands---but it may be very important to let your wife know how you feel, and to use the POJA to negotiate issues with her.<P>At this point, I have a hard time judging what kind of a husband you were prior to this affair. How much you have contributed to the state your marriage is in. If you've let stuff slide (not meeting your wife's needs---but not lovebusting), then I would think that a shorter Plan A is in order. But you're still looking at a 3 month timeframe. As for your suffering---only you know how much you can take, and you must go to Plan B before you're ready to give up.<P>As an aside---how do you feel about marriage? Biblically speaking, do you believe that you have one shot with marriage, and divorce (remarriage) is not an option? Or are you more "modern" and are willing to quit if things get tough? Your mindset is very important in how long you should be in each plan (and one thing Steve does is judge how you're doing in each session).

Well, last night, on our 1 1/2 hour drive home, I actually brought up EN's and did a kind of verbal-questionaire. Out of the EN's, she said honesty/openess was definitely number one, and financial/support was last. The others she wasn't so sure about and put inbetween. But the more I think about the events that have transpired in the past month, and even as long as we've known each other, she has always loved when I took charge and made decisions without asking others for affirmation, even her. <P>I can be an extremely passive person, by nature. My mother is the same way. I always prided myself in the fact that my wife and I have never had an argument, or raised our voices to each other. But of course we didn't, I always would give in before it elevated to anything significant!<P>I am still not going to make any decisions until I talk to Dr Harley Ok, haha, that sounded funny, because here I am talking about how I need to make decisions without constantly seeking affirmation, and I say I need to call him. But I do. He's helped thousands get through this, and although my situation might be different, he'll have a clearer view of what to do than I.<P>Your description of marriage is indeed Biblical, in my perspective. "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder", but I believe there is one provision, and that is for infidelity. Biblically, I believe I could divorce, and remarry, but emotionally, I don't feel as if I could. I have poured way too much of myself into this relationship to let it go just now. In spite of all the things she's done, I still love her with all my heart, and want to spend the rest of my life with her. But if she doesn't start loving me back, then I am going to rescue myself and face a new life.

If you read the bible in context, and refer back to the Greek and referential time that Jesus was speaking (and who he was speaking to), I believe that you'll find the "out clause" for infidelity is inconsistant with his message. This is certainly the interpretation of the Catholic church (which doesn't recognize "divorce" in the sense of a legit out to remarry). A <A HREF="http://members.truepath.com/godsway/godsword.htm" TARGET=_blank>Christian Perspective</A> is here, although it's a bit hard to follow with the text colors. I believe that you'll find it educational and interesting, if nothing else.<P>God bless---and talk to Steve... soon!

Plan A is not about being a doormat and allowing the ws to do disrespectful things to you. Its about trying to meet their EN and not committing and LBs. Although it can be difficult, I actually started to feel better about myself as a wife. If he did or said something that wasn't respectful, I walked away. Didn't dignify it. When I knew that he was still seeing her, I told him that I knew that he saw her and that it wasn't acceptable for us to be together and that to happen. I did it in a calm voice and raised no other argument. <BR>Don't be a doormat. You can still be very strong in Plan A. I was. I made decisions that were sound. I conducted myself like I expected respect. I think that is what makes Plan A successful.

I don't want to get into a theological debate right now. The bottom line is that, right or wrong, I want so badly for my baby to come back to me =*(

just a thought.... and you 2 have already eluded to this, so ignore me if I'm off-base or redundant...<P>I don't think the purpose of Plan A is to be passive, sweet, and a doormat. We are supposed to fulfill the EN's of the WS. If one of the EN's is leadership from the H (that should be an EN for all women, even for strong women), then by all means, study and learn what true leadership is and demonstrate it. I say study and learn, because a lot of men don't understand what true leadership in a marriage is. You know, it's not giving orders, arrogance, or being selfish, etc....<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I don't want to get into a theological debate right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh heck, I was just trying to distract you from your problems. How about those Red Sox?

just read your last post, GM. I know how you feel today. I am so sad and ready to give up. I am wondering if my H still loves me at all and if I am just prolonging my pain. I know that Plan B for me will be the end, so I am scared to go there. I'm just down today. I miss him so much. But wishing and feeling sorry for ourselves (that's how I feel anyway - sorry for myself and lonely) isn't the solution, so we've got to pick ourselves up. ok? I've got to get busy at work. I've been way too unproductive for way too long. I know that if I will just jump in to my work, my mind will be kept busy and i will feel better.<P>This isn't the Prayer Request forum, but Lord, lift us up. Fill us with your comfort and peace. Give us patience and faith and the confidence that you are working on our spouses.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Sigh, that bitterly unwelcome, yet sound advice about productivity is all too true! I am just glad I got my project past Design Consolidation and into the preparation phase (I'm an Engineering Project Manager) so it is pretty smooth sailing for a few weeks. The past few weeks have been insane, though, trying to work and block out my depression.<P>I feel just like you, Faith, that if I go into a real Plan B, that this will be over and I might as well start working out and buying a new wardrobe (oh wait, I'm doing that already). I don't want to go to B, either.<P>But no matter what your husband is feeling right now, know that because you are giving when you most feel like recieving, that your reward is remembered. I too, am praying for her victory, and awakening, and I have many people praying for her as well. All we can do is have faith that God is hearing those prayers!<P>Red Sox? I don't have any Red Socks! Mine are YANKEE socks! hahah. Actually, I can't tolerate an entire game of baseball. The first entire game I watched was the last game of the subway series last year. I miss NYC! I've been gone too long!<P>But getting back to the topic, really quickly, I think I am not going to change how I have been doing things too drastically. I have begun to change myself into a stronger, more decisive man, and I will continue to do that. But I will always treat her with the same respect, patience, honesty and love that I always have, even if she doesn't do the same for me.

To Godlyman:<BR>I will jump in on this one. You stated that your wife really enjoys it when you take charge and when you stop being passive. I think that is your answer. I have observed that some women perceive a passive husband as like having another child because the wife must make all decisions and tell the husband what to do. It is very unattractive and not surprising when women seek out men as lovers who are perceived as in control type of men who they observe as manly and make the women feel more feminine. There is nothing sexy about a passive man for many women.

Bryan, thanks for jumping in! What you said is something I feel like I have been struggling with her for the past year or so. I don't think she finds me as attractive as she first might have thought. I was much more agressive in pursuing her when we were dating, and that ambition must have given her confidence that I was the strong man she wanted for a husband. Then when we got married and everything was "Sure, honey, that's fine" or "Yeah, go on and meet him for lunch! I don't mind one bit!", suddenly she saw a smaller man, and when we ran into some financial trouble, maybe she felt unsure about our future. <P>But the clincher was when I failed to meet her Sexual EN's. I wasn't everything she needed, and it convinced her to look elsewhere.

I have struggled with this same topic. My W has claimed that I was obsessive with her, which is what drove her to the A. She has also told me that she does not respect the fact that for our entire marriage she gets whatever she wants. She told me these things during the early stages of the A. I did Plan A, but felt the entire time that she was going to think that I was either obsessive or letting her have her way. For me, I only saw a turning point in this whole thing when I told my W that I was done with the b.s. and the lies and was filing for divorce unless this stops immediately. I basically found my boundaries and let her know and she responded. She says I blackmailed her but that she was going to end it with OM. Of course she wanted to go away for a week with him to tell him, which was also unacceptable to me.<P>Don't get me wrong I think Plan A was what kept my W from drifting even further away and ending the marriage. If I hadn't Planned A, I would have committed even more LBs than I did and we wouldn't be where we are now. Of course, its only been 2 weeks since she told OM and we are a VERY long way from recovery.<P>S&C

Yeah, a few of us do need to learn how to take a step back and let go a little. But don't totally let go, because, like you said, your affection and attentiveness to her EN's is what probably kept her from totally pulling away. It is a constant struggle with us, between not smothering, yet reaching out, reminding them that we are here and wanting to please.<P>I tell you what felt really good... and some of you might not quite understand this, but last night in church, when we were praying, something happened that never happened to us before. I was holding her hand and praying quietly, and she just kind of stood there as she does, and looks around, probably wanting to be anywhere but there. I wanted to leave my pew and go to the front, where people were praying more fervently, but I didn't want to leave her. But eventually, I was moved and I just went. She didn't go with me at first, which is what I expected, but to my utter amazement, she came up after a few minutes and took hold of my arm, very strongly, and just sort of stared at my face, while I prayed. I prayed very strongly, and took hold of some things that I felt were holding me back, and she seemed to be amazed at my triumph, and held to me even stronger, resting her head on my shoulder at times.<P>Some of you might not be able to associate, as I said, but the feeling of her holding on to me so tightly, as if she needed me and the strength I was finding, was a feeling that will carry me through for quite a while.

BryanP hit it right on the head for me. I saw my ex the same way he described. Another child in the house. I got sick of taking care of him and the kids all of the time and nobody took care of me. I saw my ex as a very weak man and still do. He's having the same issues now with his girlfriend.

BonnieSept, our situations are actually different, yet SO unusually similar. I take care of my wife TOO much. I never asked her to get a job, or pushed her to finish college, I never asked anything of her. Whatever she wanted, was fine with me. <P>While I *thought* I was taking good care of her, I was not. I was being passive and weak, and she lost love for me in the process. The same way you lost love for your husband, for being passive and weak.<P>The OM pushed her to get a job, and she did, and she seems happy. I wish so badly it was me who helped her over that hurdle, but now he will always hold a special place in her heart for helping her through that, not me. That's something that EA's always have to live with. The OP fulfilled a need that the BS didn't.

Our counselor told us that men are usually lovers or leaders - not usually both. Mine is a lover - a very good one - affectionate - sensitive - fun - conversation - sweet. But I also needed a leader. I needed him to get off the couch sometimes. I needed him to make some decisions, and have the guts to disagree with me. I needed him to be honest and open with me - he wasn't - he didn't like confrontation. Sure, it works both ways... I could've been more willing to LET him. But, based on some of his bad decisions, and failure to fulfill promises, I had a hard time trusting him. Just another aspect of our M I believe we can work through, learn more about, and improve on - if he'll give us a chance. I'm trying to show him this in my Plan A. Admiration and the desire to trust him and let him lead. Of course that's extra hard now, because of his A. I'm hoping he will show the same lack of leadership with his OW, and she will get tired of being his mom soon.

It definitely works both ways. If one partner is passive, the other is obviously in some way controlling, or at least ALLOWING the passiveness to continue.<P>So don't put all of the blame on yourself because you were 'passive'. If that was something she didn't like, she should have said something about it.<P>I can relate in that my H was always saying, "yes dear, fine dear, whatever you say dear, why do I bother answering when you're always right?". I so desperately wanted him to take control, yet without realizing it, I wouldn't allow it. It's all about insecurities on my part. It's been hard to let go now that we're in recovery, but at least I know where some of my contributions lay, and am working on doing something about it. It's amazing the kind of response I get when I tell H that it's up to him, and I will support him in whatever decision he makes.<P>Karen<BR>

Yay, Karen! Once again, you have inspired me.

Man, for me, that is hard to hear from a woman. That women actually want a man that can disagree with them every now and then! It's just never been my nature, but like you, it is something I am willing and wanting to work on, if she'll give us a chance.<P>And I know where I got this nature... my father was ALWAYS right. There was NO chance he was ever wrong, and he even would say that, outright. My mother was just passive, and sometimes would protest, but would know when it was better to just give it up. That angered me and I promised myself to never be that stubborn. I guess I went a little too far.<P>I wish so badly I could talk about this stuff with my wife, but she doesn't seem to care. Anytime I start talking about us, or my past, or our personalities, emotional needs, etc, she just practically tunes out and offers nothing to the conversation.<P>I have been TOO much of a lover, and not enough of a leader. This is hard to grasp. It seems almost ridiculous, to my mind that says you can't be too much of a lover!