One step forwards, two steps backwards. Argggghhhhhhh. Women !!!<P>Why can't I just shoot my Taker and get it over with. So, what's wrong with a sexless marriage. I ask you :-)<P><BR>

Nothing at all Freddy, if you want to be a science experiment... <P>Talk to me pal, what happened?<P>True

Freddy,<BR>What's wrong???????? What happened??????<P>Sex!!!!!!??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>I'm gonna' keep my mouth shut here - aftershock

Freddy,<P>Its not all women!!!!<P>I guess I'm just a nympho -<P>that is nympholess <BR>Sorry - I know it doesn't solve anything!<BR>aftershock

LOL...that was bad... !!

Freddy must have commited one of the 40 MISTAKES MEN MAKE WHILE HAVING SEX Sins.. <P>How ya doin my friend? <P>If you want to take your mind off of it.. I posted my letter to that thread/solution we worked yesterday. <P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

What's wrong with a sexless marriage?<P>1. House would be too clean as you worked off all those urges.<BR>2. Ditto yardwork--you'd have the best lawn in town; people would hate you.<BR>3. Your water bill would be high (too many cold showers).<P><BR>Really Freddy, we're all here for you...and, whatever's happened has probably happened to me...My H and I are pretty much at odds with the sex issue...I want it...He pushes me away...<P>Talk to us.<P>Cali

think Vegas Marsha..think Vegas!!!<P>

I agree. But more than 2 steps back, let's make it a mile backward. No, 30 miles, that is how far it is to OW's house. <P>ok, I am in a very bad mood. <P>You really want to know? It saves energy (gas or electric) with cold showers, may need to spend a bit more if you use an electric blanket, saves stress from wondering about STDs, your house stays cleaner, bake more, clean more (oops, already said that), drink less?, watch more tv, on the computer more, on the phone more?, lots of time to do more things. <P>.....hey, this is helping.... I don't need H. He needs to walk out the door on his own. No pushing from me just him facing his reality, say it, pay up and go live with 'it'.<P>No more pretending......<P>L.<BR> <P>

Freddy, Freddy, Freddy.<P>I know all about sexless marriages - and kissless, touchless, etc.<P>hey, check this out: "libido gap", "desire discrepancy." Good, huh?<P>WAT

there must be a free clinic at the mall doing:<P>intimacyectomy's<BR>or maybe desireotomy's<BR>possibly even libidosuction<P>wonder if the AMA knows this is going on ill make a call!

Any clues?

Isn’t it amazing just how thoughtless the WS can be ? It’s like the fog hides any recognition of the BSs needs. All they seem to see is me, me, me. Sorry, just need to vent a little. And women, why are they so damned complicated. Arrgggghhhhh.<P>As you know I’ve been Plan Aing and I’ve been practicing the principle of honesty. It’s been working real well but it does mean that you have to confront the hairy issues (aftershock, sorry, I still have that vision in my mind). Trouble is, she’s practicing the principles of revisionist history and conflict avoidance.<P>Last night, she even says to me that we don’t have a problem. So, I said, excuse me – what problem is it that we don’t have ? Like, pinch me, slap me, throw a bucket of cold water over me. Has this all been a dream ? Then she says that every time I get close to her she thinks I want to have sex. So, I swallowed real hard and said – hey, babes, please don’t confuse a hug and a passionate kiss with my need to have sex. I mean, puhleeeeeze.<P>I’m afraid that at that point I made it real clear where I stand. I didn't burst into a rage. I was real controlled, non-judgemental and all that. But I really didn’t give a damn about LBing. I told her that I’m very willing to work on our problems and our relationship but that means, how ever uncomfortable the issues are, we have to discuss them. Discussing sex is unfomfortable for her. Just doesn't want to go there.<P>So, then I told her that I’m not staying in a relationship for the next 10 years of my life where sex is an accident rather than a celebration. Unfortuneately, I was born a man and this little hormone pumping through my body is very unkind to me because it makes me feel horny. Not always. Just on the odd occassion. And again unfortuneatley for her more than once a year. So, let's talk - how does she feel about this ?<P>I mean, what is it that turns an intelligent, caring, loving human being into a stupid, thoughtless, spiteful individual: ‘Beam me up Scotty’ – I must be on the wrong planet here &#61514;<P>Take care, everybody<P>

I see I'm not the only one up at this insane hour! LOL.<P>Ah... the joys of Plan Aing.. NOT!!! You my dear friend, are experiencing firsthand, just how hard it can be to Plan A. It really can take it's toll on you.<P>On a more serious note, this is a problem from pre A, right? I really don't know how you can get your W to open up on this subject. If you ask her to talk about it too much, she'll only withdraw further. Maybe what you have to do (which is something I did in my plan A) is to ASK her if you can give her a hug or a kiss. Yes, it takes away from the fun of the spontanaeity, but it could help her to feel more comfortable, which in turn should allow her to be able to open up more to you.<P>Karen<BR>

First, Thanks for assisting me.. I've added to what you suggested on that thread we worked on.. can you look at it?<P>I understand how you feel.. My w.. wants to be friends.. but no sex.. she wants the OM to be a friend.. sex? I don't know. <P>She tells me her reasons that she can't, because she feels uncomfortable, nervous, taken advantage of.. among other things. <P>I really don't understand it either Freddy. I wish that I could. I know that she and I have a great time together.. its just that first 5 minutes of it that she feels uneasy about it. Of course, its been nearly 3 years that she and I have made love. We have had sex.. a dozen and a half times in those three years. At times I'm a walking time bomb. The ladies can joke all day long about rosie and her four friends all they want, but there is a huge difference. The relief may be there, but the anxiety, depression, lose of ones self esteem, lack of return affection.. (go ahead and laugh) and intimacey aren't met. I don't want sex. Sex is sex is sex. I want love making. I want passion, secretiveness, desire, gentleness and the softness that comes with love making. <P>I don't know why women always think that its 'just sex' for us men, because its not. I know what she likes and she knows what I like. Its nothing akward, strange, or weird... its simple. A man and his wife, enjoying each other... partaking of each other's spirit, soul, mind and body. Its not that sweaty romp on the kitchen table that you and I are longing for. <P>I don't know what to tell you. I wish I could. Maybe ask her for 5 min. Just five minutes to share one another. If she is still uncomfortable at the 5 min mark.. then you stop. <P>If you make it to the 5 min mark and she is enjoying what is happening between the two of you, then continue. <P>The next time make the time mark 4 min.. and so on. A counselor/minister ?? said this years ago to a group of men, in a leadership training class I was in. Funny to think about that now.. <P>Anyhow, try that and see if she is game.<P>By the way, I kicked rosie and her four friends out a very long time ago. I had to.. it wasn't fulfilling. Like eating a chocolate morsel and not getting the rest. I wasn't worth it. Made me want intimacy and love making all the more. So I just quit. Now that the world knows that I won't even have sex with myself.. damn that looks pathetic..<P><P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

Topie LOL (waving)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freddy:<BR><B><BR>I’m afraid that at that point I made it real clear where I stand. I didn't burst into a rage. I was real controlled, non-judgemental and all that. But I really didn’t give a damn about LBing. I told her that I’m very willing to work on our problems and our relationship but that means, how ever uncomfortable the issues are, we have to discuss them. Discussing sex is unfomfortable for her. Just doesn't want to go there.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Freddy,<BR>I'm in the same shoes as you, but make those high-heeled, please (I'm a female). It's been a year since my H has really made love to me, and coincidentally, a year ago he was in an EA with the OW. 'Nuff said about that for the moment, because I really want to see if I can help you to understand and thereby help ME to understand, too!<P>In another galaxy, I was married before to someone who never forgot my birthday, anniversary, Valentines Day and all that lovey dovey stuff. Our sex life was good, we enjoyed one another's company and really seemed to be in tune with each other. As the years rolled by, the kids came along and life got a lot more difficult, I realized that H #1 was the type to run from unpleasant situations and literally left me holding the bag. Before long, I was doing everything around the house, too, including those things men usually do: simple house repairs, yard work, you name it, I did it. As the kids entered their teen years, things got really messy and he just crawled into a shell and literally left me alone to face the music. <P>To make a long story short, I no longer felt like a desirable, warm, loving woman, but a drudge. I became the fixer of everything and the giver of all I had. In return, I got complaints, criticism, nagging and blame from him. Enter the OM, and bingo! End of life as we all knew it. Sex with H was the first thing to go. Now, here is the ironic part: I never once had sex with the OM; it was a completely emotional affair. I was still young enough and religious enough to feel that sex with anyone else but my H was a sin and I just wouldn't do it. A HUGE anger grew up inside of me. Wanting to, but denying my inner urges to make love with the OM, my entire being was filled with this anger. It shut off any and ALL desire I had for my H. The more I thought about it, the less desirable my H became to me, and the more attractive the OM. I viewed my H in a totally negative way and all of his undesirable traits and characteristics came to the surface. I could never get past them, and four years later, we split up.<P>When a person refuses to talk about sex with their partner, I'd be willing to bet that the reason is a deep anger that is holding them back. For a woman, sex truly does begin in the mind, and if our mind is made up that we don't want to do it with someone, we won't. It's as simple as that. Not being able to reconcile our anger towards our lover/mate, and unable to express it verbally for whatever reason (fear of recimination, fear of change as in loss of security of the marriage, FEAR, period), our sexual center in our brains just closes up shop. Even the thought of being touched 'down there' by him is repulsive! As Dr. John Gray puts it, "..she can actually grow to hate his touch." When I first read that, my mind yelled out, "YES!!" That's just what happened to me. <P>Anger and fear, Freddy. Those are two huge sex busters, as well as love busters. I don't know how it is for men, but for women, if we don't feel mentally or emotionally comfortable having sex with someone, it just isn't going to happen. <P>Now, with my present H, the tables are turned. He is filled with enormous anger towards me for many things that happened over our years together. Some I was responsibile for, others I was not. At least, we are talking about it now and while I don't agree with everything he says, at least I am finding out what has been blocking his desire to make love with me. Little by little, the wall is coming down and as we work together on repairing the damage that was done, I know that things have a good chance for a real reconciliation. <P>Get her talking to you, Freddy, and KEEP her talking to you. Women solve their problems through talking, and that means you have to be a good listener. Don't try to solve her problem for her, just let her talk. Eventually, the reason will come out. Honestly, I would not be surprised if you found out she has some deep seated anger towards you for something you did--or did not do--and the only way you're going to find out is if you get her talking to you. Yes, she doesn't want to "go there" by talking about her lack of sexual desire for you right now. There is most likely a lot beneath the surface and she just can't get it out in a sentence or two. She isn't sure how you are going to listen to her and accept what she wants to say. <P>Hope some of what I said makes sense. I know that I'm doing this with my H and it is working wonders. As much as some of the things he says hurt me (and some are downright wrong!), I let him speak. We started this four months ago, when I began Plan A, and now we are at the point where I can get my viewpoint in and he will listen to me. It only takes one of you to start, and if you listen with your heart and not just your ears, you may find out why she is closed off to you. <P>Good luck!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 27, 2001).]

<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: LonelyAtNight ]</p>

Freddy,<P>Here a book excerpt that you might find interesting.<P>Z<P>------------------------------------------<BR>The following is from the book “I Love You, Let’s Work It Out”, by David Viscott, MD. It’s a wonderful book that fits very well into the MB concepts. <BR>----------------------------------------- <P>It has often been said that when sex is bad it is a very large part of a relationship and when sex is good it is a very small part.<P>THE MOST COMMON FEMALE SEXUAL PROBLEM<P>Frigidity is a little more complicated [then THE MOST COMMON MALE SEXUAL PROBLEM] because women cannot point to a flaccid penis as an excuse for not participating in sex. They need to make more elaborate excuses when they are unwilling to admit their hurt and anger. Women, like men, have moments when their sex drive evaporates. This is common after the birth of a child, especially when the woman feels overwhelmed about fulfilling her new role and feels that her husband and child are both babies needing her case. Some women feel uninterested in sex during certain days of their menstrual cycle, at certain periods of their lives, and when they are afraid of something. Women are much less able to have sex for its own sake, unlike men, who can suddenly get in the mood just by remembering something sexy that happened twenty-fives years ago. Women are more likely to be taught by an unhappy mother that it isn’t nice to enjoy sex or that sex is unfulfilling or dirty, a perverse attempt to discourage them and protect their chastity.<P>It is a woman’s attitude about herself that determines her sexuality. Low self-esteem, fear of loosing control, and anxiety over being lovable are the main reasons women have problems with sex. A woman who does not feel good about herself cannot feel truly sexy. Although some women use sex to feel loved, such sex feels manipulative and draining. It’s no exciting. When a woman feels she must perform to please her partner, the experience may be sexy by the man’s standards, but it’s often a bit distanced and staged, and not very fulfilling.<P>The fridgid woman is not interested in the man and usually for good reasons. She may feel he is insensitive, demanding, controlling, or filled with self-importance. Unable to express her anger, she retaliates by not participating in sex. The man tends to lose patience with her, finding her too difficult to deal with. Instead of trying to understand her, he often just demands his rights. This further damages the equality between the partners.<P>A woman who is not permitted to say “no” without feeling guilty will never say “yes” with abandon.<P>A woman who is stripped of her own career and identity, who feels dependent and powerless, also feels resentful even if she is unwilling to admit it to herself, even if she protests the opposite to the world. Often she is not taken seriously, not listened to, and not treated as an equal. So when her partner asks for sex, he empowers her to refuse. When that is the only power a woman has over her mate, you can be sure she will use it. <P>Most frigid women aren’t sexually unfeeling. They are just so hurt and angry that there is no way that tender, receptive feelings can express themselves. If a woman is angry at a man for bottling her up and not caring for her, the last emotion she will express is sexual desire. A woman’s sexuality depends on her ability to feel vulnerable, trusting and loved. Millions of dollars’ worth of psychotherapy have been spent trying to make the point to frustrated husbands. Men betray themselves when they want sex on command because spontaneous sex is the by-product only of an open, feeing relationship where the partners are both free. <P>A happy sexual life is an extension of a happy, free life together. If you are not happy together, why should you expect your sex life to be good?<P>While insecure men are likely to label their sexually uninterested mates psychologically impaired, or point to an unhappy childhood to explain why they are not aroused, they are just fooling themselves. For all the problems in self-esteem or mistaken beliefs about sex, when sex isn’t working the problem is usually in the relationship. Many so-called frigid women have easily warmed on passion in the arms of a caring partner.<P>Men cannot imagine love without sex.<P>Women cannot imagine sex without love.<P>The frigid woman is not cold by nature but by reaction. She wants tenderness and love but is reduced to withholding sex to keep from loosing her identity. She avoids participating ins sex because it makes her even more dependent on the man, exactly what she is trying to avoid.<P>Frigidity is a perverted symbol of independence.<P><BR>------------------<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B>If a woman is angry at a man for bottling her up and not caring for her, the last emotion she will express is sexual desire. A woman’s sexuality depends on her ability to feel vulnerable, trusting and loved.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Zor,<BR>Uh huh! That's what I said, compressed into 39 words. When a woman is made to feel LESS than desirable, or less than precious and wanted as a woman (and not just as a housekeeper, cook, chauffer, etc.), she will not feel sexual desire for the person who stripped her of her 'self.' I'm not against housekeeping and the rest, but I am against being taken for granted (as in the case with H #1) and used up until there just wasn't any more to give.<P>Here's a giggle to lighten the moment: do you know the boob actually told me that I HAD to have sex with him because it was "in our marriage contract!" How's THAT for killing the old sexual drive??! He only had to say that once, and that was the total e-n-d of any type of desire, sexual or otherwise, for him. I haven't looked back once, and I don't regret it one bit.<P>LonelyAtNight, my heart does go out to you. Your wife has a LOT of pent up anger and other negatives inside of her. I don't think she ever forgave you for not getting the old snip and clip, and she felt pressured into going for the tubal ligation. This probably led in part to her justification for her EA/PA, and it is going to take a lot of time and talking it all out for her to come around. Keep her talking to you, too, and listen with understanding and your heart. <P><BR>Wouldn't it be great if marriage came with a manual that told us how to act and what to avoid??! Oh, sure..there is the Bible, but it never ceased to amaze me that we spend 12 years of our lives (at least) in school, and not once are we really taught anything useful about the ONE 'career' that almost all of us choose: marriage. We learn how to add, but hardly ever learn to add things up to make sense until it's too late.<P>Hugs and prayers to all...<BR>Winny <BR>