...just a bunch of "manipulatiors" with all tha plan A/B stuff. I mean do you really have to "learn/practice" to be "nice" to your W/H???? - Shouldn't that be a natural thing in your relationship?????? - I just don't get it - ALL OF A SUDDEN The BS is supposed to plat a game i.e. BE NICE TO WS????? - Perhaps I have got it all wrong but what a master gameplay - and do you REALLY beleave that you will not fall into the old patterns after this "manupulation" is over????? - No ill will intended - I'm just curiouse!

How have YOU done in all YOUR relationships, dear???<P>I think we ALL have plenty to learn. Maybe Since your realtionships are so wonderful, and you seem to know just how to keep it all together, why don't you write a book and set up a web-site with "humblefish's relationships principles"<P>..sheesh!

It's ok, Sweetie, it's easy to misinterpret.<P>Plan A is NOT about manipulation. It's about seriously looking inside ourselves to determine what kind of person we are and what kind of person we want to be.<P>It's understanding our spouse, truly listening and caring, which, unfortunately turn out to be a couple of casualties of long-term relationships unless folks are really careful.<P>It's,after that internal examination, beginning inner changes that support LIFETIME SUSTAINABLE BEHAVIOR, for ourselves as much as our spouses.<P>If it saves a marriage and makes love grow stronger, terrific. In any case, it makes US stronger and better people in the process.<P>I don't really call that manipulation, just self-improvement.<P>Love,<P>Lori

I think its going back to what we were when we were first married. Its taking care of yourself until you learn all the good and the bad about your spouse. Call it manipulation, we call it healing. Healing of ourselves to find what we lost and what we need to fix. <P>I changed from who I was to what I was prior D-day. That was my fault. Did I notice, hell no. Did she, yes she did. Being nice is a natural thing.. but at a time when we are all our WS punching bags.. we are trying to no be like they are.<P>As far as falling back into old patterns... shouldn't an alcoholic try to correct his mistakes and then do everything possible to avoid those things that make him/her an alcoholic? Only I can change me.. how I do that, how long I do that and why I do that is up to me. She can't do it for me. If I fall back into old ways.. they are the ways that I became prior to the A, and NOT the way I use to be.<P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

Plan A is not manipulative at all. It is simply getting back to (or learning for the first time) good marital behavior, what it takes to be a good spouse. For most people, it is pretty natural when the marriage is running smooth, but takes work when ineveitable bumps arise. It may or may not influence your spouse to recommit to the marriage when the affair fizzles, but if not, you've learned something that can help you in future relationships. <P>Plan B is simply a way of protecting the BS from hurt caused by further contact with their fog-fuc*ed-up spouse. It is not intended to be manipulative either, in fact, it often leads to the BS deciding they are happier without the f-f-u spouse anyway.

I responded the way I did because Humblefish has been around here a while. SHe should know why we Plan A/B. I think something has happened with her man that has brought her to us today, when we haven't heard from her in awhile.<P>What happened Humblefish? Would you like to tell us, and maybe we can help? Instead of attacking us?

Tell me you don't tell your lover what you know he wants to hear...<P>Tell me that "I love you" isn't meant to keep him coming back...<P>Tell me that you don't have sex with him in hopes that he will keep coming back to you...<P>You know he's married...<P>Tell me why you keep opening the door to him...<P>If you think that BS's do what they do not out of love, but manipulation, how can you NOT say the same about yourself??<P>How do you know that we don't truly love them?? How can you be so sure? Why should we give them up?? Give our lives up??<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

no offense huh. I am very offended at being reffered to as a manipulator. It is not a manipualtion, it,in my case, is a change in attiudes for the better. I am not hog tying my spouse to stay in our marriage. It was a mutual decision, because we both fell short and now realize the mistakes. <BR> What makes what you are doing to your married man not a manipulation on both sides. You will not leave as long as he says he loves you, he is using that to his advantage. His marriage in not a real marriage, his wife is more like a mom, If it is SO maternal, why is he still in it especially if there are no minor children to worry about. And you have talked to his wife on the phone, HOW sick is that. Whom does she think you are?? the avon lady. <BR> Love is a wonderful thing, and I hope that the world gets to feel that emotion to its depths, however, if it is hidden and not allowed to breathe, it will fade and die. <BR> Why is it this paragon of greatness, with no children, and a loveless mom like marriage, has not run to you with open arms and proclaimed to the masses that you are the one for him?? What reasons is he giving you?? And you think he is not manipulating you?? Okay!! <BR> SO you know for future reference. Manipulate: To handle, operate, or use with or as with the hands, especially with skill. 2. To influence or control with deception.3. To change or alter usually fraudulently. I for one am not using any of the wonderful skills I have learned by reading and watching, in a manipulaitve way. My spouse has full diclosure of any and all things i think, read, and write. I am not leading my spouse down a empty road of false promises. I am building a rich and fuller life, one that we can reach by understanding that most marriages are not started with all the knowledge there is out there to maintain needs being filled. We mostly assume that it is not work, and when we realize that it takes work, there usually has been an affair. So at that moment, We either hide and make the same mistakes over, or we learn and build something better than before.

Let her be until she COMES here for help. She CAME here to disrupt and we just need to ignore her now. Like I said.. she'll be back on her knees in no time.. making sure his manipulation, of love FULFILLS her.. <P>

So you call Plan A & B manipulation? Sounds an awful lot like what the people on gloryb are telling each other is the way to steal someone else's spouse. So who is being manipulative? <P>It seems that the ultimate form of manipulation is out and out lying. Is that not what you and your OM are doing?<P>HF, you are in love and that is all that matters to you in this life. You care nothing about respect, integrity, honesty, etc. So go live your life in the manner that makes you happy. So sad that your happiness makes you so unhappy. Paradox isn’t it?<P>Since you look down so much on the MB concepts, what are you doing these days to make yourself a better person? What wisdom can you pass on to us?<P>Z<P><BR>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 28, 2001).]

Dorkfish:<P>Dang ... missed this one when it was back on page two.<P>While you are certainly in the fog, I am totally sure you do not have Moose Brain Worms ... the alcohol you consume has killed them all.<P>Unfortunately, the Mothership is in for repairs, so we can't beam you up right now.<P>Did you ever think that YOU are the manipulator? You've gone into someone's life (the BS) and totally trashed it.<P>Plan A and Plan B are about working on the marriage when it is damaged deliberately via an affair <P>Meeting emotional needs (<I>His Needs, Her Needs</I> and <I>Love Busters</I>) and implementing the four rules (honesty, care, protection and time) help build a marriage sagging under the accumulation of minor neglects and lovebusters during a marriage.<P>There is a lot you "don't get", as it is readily apparent that you haven't read the material on this site, nor any of Harley's books. Or if you did, it was hard to see the words in the fog.<P>The purpose of Plan A, Dorkie, is to try to usurp the emotional needs that the OP is filling by implementing ENs and the four rules, while avoiding love busters.<P>Plan B is for when the fog is as dense as you are: the WS fails to give up the OP after a period of implementing Plan A.<P>Plans A/B are a win/win situation for the BS: if the WS returns and the rebuilding of the marriage begins, that is a win. If the marriage ends in divorce, the concepts of ENs and fully realizing the importance of the rules of honesty, care, protection and time make the BS a better person. Self-improvement is a win situation. Not to mention the next lucky person who happens to come into their life.<P>Let me shine the flashlight through your ears so maybe this will sink in: the state of a marriage is generally attributable to both spouses. The decision to have an affair was a wrong decision by one spouse. Seen the Light, Dorkie? Or do I just do hand silhouettes on the wall?<P>Now, let's address YOUR conduct. Hmmm, you break into a house, steal someone's most valuable asset, and you get charged with felony burglary ... 5 to 7 years, at a minimum, in the pen. Too bad we can't lock you (and other OPs) up for marital felony burglary. Do wish more states had alienation of affection laws (see related thread ... you can do the search ... I am tired of finding links for you). Would be nice if the BS could sue you for a few hundred grand.<P>You are a thief, a liar, a cheat. Want me to go on? But the most pathetic thing is not so much what you and the MM have done to the BS, it is that you have lied to, cheated, and stolen from yourself. Tsk.<P>After you sober up in the morning, take a long cold shower, then go look in the mirror. Really look. You are not a happy camper. Why? Because subconsciously, you can't lie, cheat or steal from yourself without your subconcious squawking about it. Is that why you drink, to turn that subconcious voice off?<P>As I have said for the past several months: go get professional help. Emotional help and substance abuse help.<P>Wish you luck in that ... really.<P>Still have your goat, you can claim it at the Mothership.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<B>and do you REALLY beleave that you will not fall into the old patterns after this "manupulation" is over?????</B><P>Manipulation? I guess it is, sort of. But it's more of an "awakening." Looking at yourself, your behaviors and your attitudes towards your spouse and marriage in general.<P>This is the key to saving a marriage. Not just "beleaving" you can do it, but making sure you do it. Otherwise the marriage will again end up where it is.<P>Besides, aren't we ALL "manipulatiors" in relationships at some point? For instance, when you first meet someone & start dating, you are always on your best behavior, extremely thoughtful and interested. You are not always going to be like this.<P>Marriage Builders principles (not just Plan A & B) are what you need to do without having to think about it. They should be natural. By reading them and asking about them (here & with your spouse) you CAN learn to apply them in your relationship and do it without thinking about it, ala habitually thinking about the spouse in everything you do.<P>No one is asking you to agree, but it is a proven fact these principles work.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Folks, you are missing the point here. HumbleDorkFish is manipulating all of you!<P>She comes here and posts her OW BS (and I don't mean Betrayed Spouse!) and you all line up to respond. By responding, you are legitimizing her position (in her mind, anyway), and empowering her to continue. <P>I am reminded of the problems I had with my D a few years ago...<P>She would misbehave until she got us (her mom and I) worked up into a tizzy. She would scream, yell, and throw a fit until she had us screaming and yelling as well! That done, she would relish in her power over us. It was easy...throw a tantrum, misbehave, and watch mom and dad go nuts. It was empowering for her.<P>Rumblefish is doing the same thing here. She posts something that she knows (either conciously or unconciously) will inflame or enrage the people here, and then she sits back and watches while you all rush in to advise/chastise/flame her. She is the center of attention, and she loves it! It does not bother her that some of the attention is negative, she flourishes on ANY attention, good or bad. She doesn't really care what you are saying, she is only interested in the emotional response she can evoke. <P>The proper response is to ignore her. Anyone who has spent some time on GQII knows that a post with zero responses tends to fall off the "front page" in a day or less. <P>We all know how difficult it is to dissipate the "fog" of infidelity. Our WS's have fallen (sometimes unwillingly) into the "fog," and such fog is slow to clear. Dumblefish is generating fog and challenging us to see through it!<P>Until Scumblefish stops what she's doing, and becomes part of the solution (rather than the source of the problem), we should ignore her, simple as that.

cjack:<P>Normally I would agree, but there are a few positives with a long-term visitor like Dorkfish. I cited this in another post:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Unlike the others, I invite you to post here frequently. If everyone stopped to think about it, there is a very subtle message here: if all OPs are like you, it is no wonder 98% of affair-based relationships fail.<P>So keep posting and let everyone see how ignorant OPs can be (as if we didn't already know).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In addition, it serves as (a) a clarion call to rally together to defend common beliefs, (b) in order to do so, we must exmaine ourselves and our understanding of MB principles, (c) as alluded to above, it does give a distorted view of OPs (like looking through the bottom of a beer bottle in clarity), (d) it is a means for BS to vent at an OP without love busting, and (e) sometimes it is just plain fun.<P>Most drive-bys get little or no response. Dorkfish, however, serves as a constant reminder to all how insidious are the workings of OP. So, albeit a small benefit, it is a benefit.<P>Keep posting, Dorkfish. Avoid corndogs. And most of all, get professional help.<P>Godspeeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 28, 2001).]

HF,<P>RE: “Never did I reduse myself to "name calling" but if it makes you feel superior sure call”<P>You are using another one of the OP/WS tactics, revisionist history. There are many of your posts here where you use name calling… you have called the MB members “stupid”, “...just a bunch of "manipulatiors" “, and all sorts of other things. <P>So does this make you feel superior?<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare