W called me this morning... now she wants to tell SD today about the separation... Says she has done a complete 360... Logic is that after telling her, SD is going to want to be with W for support... and if we wait until Aug. 6, W will have to go to work..<P>I just wonder is this is OM telling her what to do... I'm going over there before SD gets there, we're going to talk about visitation and that sort of thing... I bet OM has made suggestions to her about that as well...<P>I really want to ask her how much the OM and she have talked about this stuff. Can I do that? Can I ask her where she and OM stand? I'm so tired of avoiding the subject...<P>zen

I think the policy of radical honesty says hat you can and should, but non confrontational, and not to react negatively to her answer since you are in Plan A. Any other opinions? In SAA Harley gave the example of Sue- you remember that one- and he encouraged her H to keep asking her about where she was and what she was doing even in plan A. You're not supposed to be making it easy for her to lie- it's supposed to be uncomfortable for her to in fact. Anyone else out there who has read it that can say if they agree with my opinion on that?<P>

ditto Scared.<P>You have to feel your way when talking about "it." Your goal is no LBs. Unfortunately, cornering them so they HAVE to lie is both good and bad - they can turn off all comminication if this is all you ever want to talk about, so just don't press too hard.<P>WAT

I agree with you SINY. But IMO, I don't think zen should talk about that today, IF it will lead into more in depth questions regarding the A.<P>Zen, you need to ask questions. You can't have them build up inside and turn into more frustration (which could far too easily come out in angry outbursts et al). Just be careful as to your wording. Right now, your concern should be focused on your sd, not the A. Again, IMO, if you want to ask any questions, you should keep them focused on sd and her part in this whole mess (not that she asked for the role of course! )<P>Karen<BR>

Hi Zen,<P>Sorry to go against the grain here, but what would be the purpose of asking her where the OM stands on this? You're probably right that the suggestions are coming from him, but why does that matter? Do you want to find out from her just to confirm your own suspicions? So you can say, 'Aha! The OM is pulling her strings!'. Well, you know that already, and so do we. Knowing that he's the puppetmaster doesn't change the fact that he is.<P>I see a big LB coming here. She's likely to get offended at the slightest suggestion that she's doing his bidding. I would resist the temptation here and just deal with the issues.<P>Also zen, is it just me, or do I sense that you are getting ready to turn the corner? I feel an attitude shift coming (one that I made awhile ago). Maybe I'm out in left field here, but if you like, go ahead and email me at redon@sprint.ca. <P>All the best,

I agree with Redon on the questions. But please stay in Plan A a little longer. You can do it. Your W needs more time seeing the better Zen. Keep on showing her how loving you are and how good you are at meeting her needs. She's just beginning to see it "you're being so nice", now she needs to believe it more. She needs to see more of it before you move to Plan B. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited July 28, 2001).]

Well, we told her. Beforehand, my W and I had a talk about what we were going to say, how we were going to say it, etc. I said I would not lay the entire thing on her (I think this would be a bad move -- sorry, WAT) but I also told her that I would not say it was my idea to go. Just basically tried to come to a joint agreement about it.<P>W wanted to know if I was willing to come every day when I get off work to relieve babysitter till she gets home (From like 5:00 to 6:30 or so) to go over homework, play with her etc. I said I was more than willing to do that (this will be a good chance to Plan A, I can cook dinner sometimes, etc.) . We also agreed that any time SD wanted to come over, call me, etc. we would both make it happen.<P>I asked her what we were going to say if she wanted to know if we were going to get a D and W said to say we don't know. I said, well, what do you think (oops) but she did not get angry, just said she didn't know. I DID ask if OM and she had talked about this -- told her I had this vision of her and him discussing it and him telling her what to do (yes, I said that. Not in LB way, and I don't think it was unless she hid it deep inside, which I doubt). She said that she and OM had not talked about it and he wasn't telling her what to do.<P>She came home, we went out to lunch, came back and told her with W's parents there. It was the absolute worst thing I've ever had to go through. She was COMPLETELY surprised... and had the worst crying/screaming fit I've even seen her have. She kept saying no no no I'll do anything etc.... I do not want this to happen... W and I were both crying and I just coudn't believe W could just sit by and let this happen. I finally explained to her how if mommy and me were ever going to make it, this had to happen right now. We explained how we were separating, not divorcing, and we didn't know what was going to happen. SD had all the same questions I did... why is it happening? If we are still friends and like each other, why do I have to move out? If we are having money problems, how is it going to be better with us apart? I so bad wanted to say to her, yeah, I don't understand either. I did say I didn't want to move out but considering that it's her house, it made the most sense for me to go.<P>After a while she seemed to get better with it... She clung to me the whole time... I had to tell her to go give her mommy a hug too... We assured her that we loved her and that it wasn't her fault. Then I gave her and her mom presents that I got in NY for them last week.. They both really liked them -- I think this was a good gesture. She's had recurring questions all afternoon and recurring "I don't want you to go"s<P>One thing really raked me: SD said, well, I don't understand, if you like each other and are going to go on dates... My W interrupted her: "We are not going on any dates." grrrrr<P>SD is smart, like you guys said. She knows there's more we're not telling her -- in fact she said as much. She just doesn't understand WHY. W said she would one day when she's a grown up.<P>Problem I see: SD has latched onto the idea of that magical time in the future when we get back together. We warned her that that might not happen, but she is hoping and counting on it, I'm afraid. I mean, I am hoping for it too, but I fear SD putting pressure on W, "When are you and <zen> going to get back together?" and this pushing W away...<P>W was visibly upset by all this. But it all went considerably well... SD knows I will always love her unconditionally (as will her family). W went to wedding and we're staying here together while she's gone. She is so great... we have the best relationship.<P>I asked W if there was anything I could do while she was gone to help... hang up clothes in closet, etc. She talked about how she never had time to take care of her stuff anf wished that she didn't have to work. I asked hr if that's what she wanted, to not work, and she said yes, but to have more than just enough $$$ to survive, so she said she's going to work to achieve that. I said so that's what you need, and she said, what, are you going to win the money somewhere? I said you could always marry someone with money (hinting at OM -- calling bluff -- I know, I'm bad) and she said that she didn't want to marry someone she wasn't in love with just for $$$. I don't know what this means. Well, I do know that she believes that that "in love" feeling is real love, perhaps?<P>Before she left, she asked me if I was ok and held my hands. She leaned to me and I kissed her on her cheek. She said it was all going to be ok.<P>Hanging out with SD now... she wants me to come upstairs with her... Gotta run... more later...<P>Thanks all,<BR>zen<BR>

Oh wow zen. It's amazing how much you can plan and anticipate various responses and outcomes, but when the act is upon you, it still blows you away.<P>I'm proud of you. You did great. And I"m proud of your W. And so glad that she sounds like she doesn't plan on making your sd a pawn in all of this. As for your sd, I'd bet that you have enough pride all on your own! <P>Thanks for letting us know how it went. Looking forward to hearing more.<P>Take care,<BR>Karen<BR>

Sounds good, zen. SOunds like it went as well as it could have! whew! made it over that speed bump. <P>Kids are smart, but they can be tough too. Maybe as she asks questions over the next few days/weeks, you can teach her to just love Mom best she can, treat her like a great mom, and when you and her are together, you'll have a great time too. Sort of her own "plan A". Kids like to be involved. THat's how she can help. SHe sounds like she wants to help, but of course without her feeling it's her fault.<P>Boy, something you said reminded me of something. My H kept saying, "I just want everything to be OK." Well, his OK, and my OK are different. So just keep that in mind - it may be true about your W. I think my H meant - he doesn't want me to be hurt when we D, and wants to be friends - basically letting himself off the hook - and doesn't want OW to be hurt either. MY "ok", of course, is to reconcile and live "happily ever after". I fooled myself the first few times he said it, then realized that his OK and my OK were different. sheesh! more fogese!<P>Hang in there buddy! Everything will "be OK". <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited July 28, 2001).]

Thanks you all. Your support really helps.<P>Just talked to a neighbor (her D is over here with my SD right now) and wanted to tell her before her D came home and spilled the news. She said she had already heard it! Her sister had actually heard something about it. I expressed my surprise and wondered if it was a big rumor... She said it was and it was going around. She also said W is apparently not trying to hide it or anything. Then she said (and I hate this) that she had been thinking about me and that she thought I was a great guy and that I really needed to find someone who I really deserved and who appreciated me. She said I could talk to her any time.<P>I wish I knew what the deal really was between OM and my W. I wish I knew how deep their plans are and if my W is just saying little to me just to keep me from reacting. I also wish I knew what she was putting forth to the outside world...<P>Gotta go watch the Rugrats special w/ my SD...<P>zen

zen:<P>My heart goes out to you, my friend. How to broach that sort of issue was very, very difficult when I was the BS with my exW. The children were devastated. It still impacts them today, over 3 years later. Heck, my sisters and I still feel the impact of my dad splitting and maintaining no family contact for 34 years.<P>You and your family will be in my prayers. I wish I had words to guide you, but it is a traumatic time, and the quicksands of emotional turmoil will make this a tough time. Try your damnedest not to LB. As to the why question ... kids hate that "You will understand when you are an adult" approach, especially the older they are.<P>Be honest. Tell her (just a suggestion) "I don't know why your mom is doing this, I am trying to figure it out too." That is the approach I took with my kids. Pass that issue squarely where it belongs ... on your wife. But also continue to stress that you are there for her, regardless of what happens. She will be feeling very emotionally torn. My kids were. I know I was as a young teen.<P>With the first phase behind you, take a moment to take a deep breath. Commit to the high road. Good ... now do something for YOU today (or tomorrow) ... go drink a beer. Call some friends and go catch a ballgame. Go bowling. Something for just you.<P>Set it aside for a few hours ... very difficult, I know. But give yourself a small window of time to recharge, regroup, rethink.<P>My prayers and thoughts, again, are with you and your family,<BR>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Thanks STL... I don't know how squarely I want to put it on W's shoulders... I think I can hint at how I don't understand either (SD and I are almost telepathic anyway) and I think I'm going to suggest to her that we not try to rush or pressure W about anything... I think SD can grasp the idea of Plan A...<P>Interesting evening... W and I had dinner upstairs while SD played with her friend downstairs. At one point, W held my hands and said "I hope you know that this really doesn't mean that I want to divorce." I said yes and rather than try to parlay that into something more, I changed the subject. <P>W got a phone call from a friend of hers and went into the closet and closed the door to talk. I thought this odd but did not even blink or pry. I did ask if everything was ok and she said yes, her friend was just needing some help (she's pregnant ) and she had to call her back in a few minutes. When she did, she AGAIN went in the closet. Really weird. After that, she was more distant to me and sort of moved me along right out the door for the night after saying goodbye to SD, who was a little upset.<P>W said she and daughter we're going to go to a movie just the two of them tomorrow and I said great. She said I would of course get to see them tomorrow also.<P>Interesting... today my W and I were talking and she said she really wants to get back to bonding more with D... also said that I had been doing a lot of the responsibilities that should have been hers. Sensing resentment, I asked if she had in fact resented me for it and she said a little. She quickly said it was noone's fault but her own, and I said that I never was trying to do things for SD just to "show her up" as a mother. I wonder how much this really is a factor.<P>Anyway, no real goodbye from W when I left... really disappointed me... was hoping for a good hug at least, but she was so not there... so I didn't push it.<P>Ahhhh, the rollercoaster. Well, time to switch into another mode... I'm meeting some friends out.<P>Thanks and take care,<BR>zen

zen:<P>Enjoy the time out. You have earned it.<P>As for the SD ... it is your call to make. But kids are pretty astute, generally. So if she asks you specifically, don't protect your wife from her actions. If you cop a "I don't know" response, she will (as you say, telepathically) pick up on it. And it will foster resentment that you are excluding her. This is a minefield, I know. Proceed with due caution. Tomorrow or Monday. Tonight have fun.<P>As for the closet calls. Suspicious, particularly in the attitude shift. Sigh. The fog prevents them, I think, from seeing that they are so transparent. One step forward, two back, sometimes. Keep the faith, keep up the Plan A-ing, believe it or not, it appears you are gaining headway.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL