You may know my story, but I'll do a quick update. Wife wants time to think and be on her own. She moves back to her parents in a small town 200 miles away and decides to get a job and apartment. The move was 10 days ago. The last couple of years have been marked mostly by a lack of communication, but there has been no physical abuse, verbal abuse, drugs or alcohol, neither of us has been in trouble with the law. Other than we didn't communicate very well there wasn't anything particularly wrong with the marriage. <P>We got married young she 20 me 24 and have been together 12 years, married 10. No kids, but her brother and sister's families have had kids in the last year as has my brother. We just bought our first home, I was laid off 2 months ago(back to work last monday). She just turned 30 and hasn't worked for the last 2 years. We both are college graduates and she has a Master's. Over the week of the 4th, she went to see family, called morning of the 5th to check on me and the puppies. I was angry but not at her and forgot to say "I love you" when we hung up. I find out later that after the phone call she had an affair. She said later when confronted that she might not have if I had said I loved her. She says she wants to find out who she is. I think that's enough to work with.<P>So, she's not here, she wants time to herself(maybe to continue the affair but with family near by and her not telling them about it, it might be difficult) and refuses counseling. The last time we communicated was yesterday through e-mail where she said I could call her Sunday night if I want, but that I "should do what makes you happy." <P>This whole situation doesn't make me happy, so I've decided not to call her. So, I'm going to therapy, taking some fun classes to get me out of the house and generally reconnecting with myself. But I'm going to cease all communication with her(her family is great and wants to talk to me and she even encouraged me to keep talking to them), because that's what she wants, and let her make any future moves. <P>So my question is "Where are we?" Are we Plan A or Plan B? Is it wise not to call her Sunday? Should I write her "the letter" letting her go, or what? I don't know where we are in the grand MB or marriage scheme. And lastly, I know this situation isn't unique, but do many people go to find themselves and then realize that the marriage wasn't so bad after all?<P>Help!

SBT:<P>Distance will have a bit of an impact on Plan A, but it is the starting point. Did you hear the emotional needs being expressed? She wants YOU to express her love for her ... sounds like her need for affection (not necessarily the sexual sort) was not being met. So, again, a starting point for you. Start targeting the more obvious ENs ... start sifting for clues.<P>Emails, phonecards and the like will have to do. FTD delivers, right <wink>? Cards and letters can be effective as well. The key thing is no love busting.<P>If you haven't already, read the materials here on Marriage Builders and <I>Surviving an Affair</I> and <I>His Needs, Her Needs</I> by Dr. Harley.<P>While getting out and taking classes is a good thing, bear in mind that it also serves to divert mental energy away from your wife. Make sure you strike the proper balance.<P>Once you have vigorous begun a Plan A, be aware that there will be daily ups and downs (heck, even hourly). Despite the uniqueness of the situation to you, affairs take a very predictable pattern. Knowing this, leverage it to your advantage. Plan A. Plan A. Plan A.<P>Not having children involved is both a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing because there are fewer victims in this scenario. It is a curse, because children are a very strong tie.<P>Anyway: welcome to Marriage Builders, I am glad you found us, but regret the circumstances,<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_but_true:<BR><B><BR>So my question is "Where are we?" Are we Plan A or Plan B? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From what you write, you are in NEITHER Plan A or Plan B. Do you truly understand what each plan is? <P>If you are in Plan A, then you absolutely, positively do NOT IGNORE her. Plan A is about meeting HER needs and NOT LOVEBUSTING. Are you doing that, even long distance? <P>Plan B is about SAVING THE LOVE YOU HAVE LEFT by severing contact and allowing her to LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD. But Plan B is only to be done after a STRONG Plan A effort.<P>How long did you Plan A?<BR>

I don't think it's a question of where you are. More to the point, where do you want to be???<P>Do you want to be in plan B, and have no contact? You should know that plan B won't work unless you've done a good job at plan A first. Have you? Have you tried your very best to get your W to want to come home? If you haven't, then take STL's advice, and plan A, plan A, plan A!! <P>And don't forget... plan Aing is not just about fulfilling your W's EN's. It's about making changes to you. It sounds like you're working on that part of it (by taking classes, etc). Now, how well have you fulfilled any of your W's EN's lately?<P>Karen<BR>

You both need counseling immediately. Her comment that you<BR>failed to say I love you when you hung up the phone and therefore caused her to have an affair is bull. Do not buy into that. She is attempting to blame you for her choice to become sexual intimate with another man while she was away from you. I think it is cowardly of her to shift the blame to you because you forget to say I love you when you said <BR>goodbye on the phone. This is typical of cheaters who many times refuse to take responsibility for their choices.<BR>Did she say I love you on the phone to you? If not then how come you did not sleep with another woman immediately? Do not let her try to shift the blame to you.

<B>She wants YOU to express her love for her ... sounds like her need for affection (not necessarily the sexual sort) was not being met. </B><P>I assume you mean MY love for her? And you got it right. We haven't been very affectionate lately and haven't had sex in a little over a year. She started dealing with her issues from her childhood and we just drifted apart in those areas. I wanted many times to make love, but because she was so paranoid about getting pregnant, she never liked it anyway. I guess I should have calmed her fears. We talked early on about not having kids, but with both of her siblings and my brother all having kids in the last year, I think its gotten to her. In the last couple of years I've started to want kids, but kept quiet because I didn't think that's what she wanted right now and I thought I could ease her into wanting them. Big mistake I guess. She did say once right before she left that I needed to "grow up and be more responsible, so you can be a good father." Maybe that was a hint that I didn't catch until later.<P><B> Emails, phonecards and the like will have to do. FTD delivers, right <wink>? Cards and letters can be effective as well. The key thing is no love busting.</B><P>Ok, I would love to send her flowers and write her love poems and generally express all the things I didn't during our marriage. In dealing with this, by posting here, writing in my journal and talking to my family, I realize that I've taken her for granted but I really do love her more than anything. The problem is that she keeps saying "I need my space and sending e-mails and letters isn't helping me think." I even sent her flowers last week. She doesn't especially like roses(I do so that's all I've ever gotten her and often) so this time I didn't send any roses. I want to show her that I have all of the feelings for her that she wants and that I can meet her emotional needs... if I could communicate with her.<P>If she doesn't want contact from me so she can think, how do I do that? I do have her family and my mom and her mom are pretty close. I don't want to USE them, but that might be a possibility. <P><B>If you haven't already, read the materials here on Marriage Builders and <I>Surviving an Affair</I> and <I>His Needs, Her Needs</I> by Dr. Harley.</B><P>Checked out HN/HN from the library yesterday and have been reading a LOT on this site.<P><B>While getting out and taking classes is a good thing, bear in mind that it also serves to divert mental energy away from your wife. Make sure you strike the proper balance.</B><P>I HAVE to divert some energy from her, as I'm also losing who I am. I need to find that happy go lucky person that I was when we got together.<P><B>Plan A. Plan A. Plan A.</B><P>OK, I get the general gist of Plan A, Plan B, but what are the specific things I can and can't do? Is sending warm loving poems or flowers OK, or is that pushing her. Is that manipulating her? I won't talk about the affair, unless she does because it hurts and I'll get upset, but what other things shouldn't you talk about. Do I send her a letter describing the problems I had as a kid so she know in part what caused my unhappiness? What!<P><B>Not having children involved is both a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing because there are fewer victims in this scenario. It is a curse, because children are a very strong tie.</B><P>We have two dalmatians who we've always treated like kids. Of all of the topics we can talk about they will always bring a little tear to her eye. I know she misses them very much. We got our female when she was 5 weeks old and used to get up in the middle of the night to coax her back to sleep. They really are our children.<P><B>Anyway: welcome to Marriage Builders, I am glad you found us, but regret the circumstances,</B><P>I'm glad I found the site 2 days after she left. If I had waited months things might seem a lot more bleak. I AM serious about turning things around. I just don't know all the keys to doing so.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B> From what you write, you are in NEITHER Plan A or Plan B. Do you truly understand what each plan is? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not fully. I DON'T WANT to ignore her, I want to be a completely loving husband, like back when we were first together.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If you are in Plan A, then you absolutely, positively do NOT IGNORE her. Plan A is about meeting HER needs and NOT LOVEBUSTING. Are you doing that, even long distance? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How do I do that when she says that having contact with me of any kind is keeping her from thinking? She keeps saying she needs to think and needs her space to do so. Is this BS and she really WANTS me to try? How do I Plan A if she doesn't want me to contact her?<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Topie25:<BR><B>I don't think it's a question of where you are. More to the point, where do you want to be???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I want us to be together in the same place working on our problems together. I know I need to find a way to get her to WANT to come home, but I don't know the difference between sending love notes and such, and pursuing and pushing her away.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Do you want to be in plan B, and have no contact? You should know that plan B won't work unless you've done a good job at plan A first. Have you? Have you tried your very best to get your W to want to come home? If you haven't, then take STL's advice, and plan A, plan A, plan A!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, I do NOT want to be in Plan B. I want her to come home so we can work together. I know I need to Plan A, and I want to Plan A until my head explodes. But how do I strike the balance between Plan A and leaving her alone to think. Is she saying that because she's still not hearing from me what she needs to hear?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And don't forget... plan Aing is not just about fulfilling your W's EN's. It's about making changes to you. It sounds like you're working on that part of it (by taking classes, etc). Now, how well have you fulfilled any of your W's EN's lately?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I haven't done very well here because I don't know what to do. The last couple of times we have talked I didn't get upset, or blame and gave her concrete examples of what I'm doing to become a better person and hopefully husband. I asked how she is doing and if there was anything I could do to help. She wrote in her journal for 2 years and never told me anything that she was discovering about herself, so now I'm asking her to tell me. I talked about missing her greatly and that I would love her always. And that she would always be welcome in our house. What am I not doing right? Am I doing anything right?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_but_true:<BR><B> How do I do that when she says that having contact with me of any kind is keeping her from thinking? She keeps saying she needs to think and needs her space to do so. Is this BS and she really WANTS me to try? How do I Plan A if she doesn't want me to contact her?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi,<P>Well, I'm in a bit of a bind, timewise, plus, I'm on an unfamiliar computer using this icky netzero, and I can't get the addresses I need to come up, so I can't post links for you. I'm sorry about that. <P>You MUST read EVERYTHING you can on this site!! Don't try to do this "solo" and rely on the forum for answers. Do some research yourself, okay? If you go to the main page of the forum listing, you will notice, about half way down the page, a forum called, "What are Plan A and Plan B?"... right below that is the article link for both plans. READ that article.<P>Plan A is about meeting needs and not lovebusting. You get the added benefit that YOU improve as a spouse, and you GROW STRONGER. Some people think that they're being a doormat -- it is simply not true.<P>You determine the Plan, not your spouse! What she does is of no consequence to the plan. YOU are doing it for YOU and for YOUR MARRIAGE.<P>One word about something you said, and I am sorry to say it. Think = time with OP (other person). Wayward spouses rarely use the time to think, unless it is about the OP. It's an excuse. If you don't meet her needs during this time, the OP will. As far as Plan A'ing her long distance, it is difficult, but possible. Be careful, don't smother her, but let her know you exist - with LOVE. No lovebusters.<P>Plan B is about preserving the love that is left. It is a LAST RESORT. Plan A needs to go on for some time (typically 6 to 18 months) before Plan B is seamlessly implimented.<P>Please go read the article, and come back with questions. This is YOUR marriage and YOUR life, and you have a right to have all the tools at YOUR fingertips.<P>Best wishes.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bryanp:<BR><B>You both need counseling immediately.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Once we started talking about our problems I told her that I wanted to go to counseling. She wouldn't have it. I am going to therapy myself, but I don't know how to get her to go if she doesn't want to. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Her comment that you failed to say I love you when you hung up the phone and therefore caused her to have an affair is bull.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>She didn't say that, that was the reason why she had the affair. Just that if I had said it, she might not have had one. Same thing I guess, but I don't want to hate her for this so I'm tryig to give some benefit to her. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think it is cowardly of her to shift the blame to you because you forget to say I love you when you said <BR>goodbye on the phone. This is typical of cheaters who many times refuse to take responsibility for their choices.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree and I'm not going to accept blame for it from her or myself. She did it and she has to live with her own guilt about it. The only thing I think is cowardly in all of this is that she told me she told her family that she had the affair, but in talking to them later I find out that the don't know. She only told them that she had made a mistake, but didn't elaborate. She told them that she was going home the morning of the 5th, but in actuallity stayed a couple extra days. They didn't even find out about that until she moved home.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Did she say I love you on the phone to you? If not then how come you did not sleep with another woman immediately? Do not let her try to shift the blame to you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She did say it right as we were hanging up so I didn't get a change to reply. That's how I forgot. I wish now I called her back and told her, but you're probably right that the affair might have happened anyway.<P>Ever since she left, including the note she left when her parents came to get her, includes the words "I will always love you." I don't know what to make of that.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>Plan A is about meeting needs and not lovebusting. You get the added benefit that YOU improve as a spouse, and you GROW STRONGER. Some people think that they're being a doormat -- it is simply not true.<P>You determine the Plan, not your spouse! What she does is of no consequence to the plan. YOU are doing it for YOU and for YOUR MARRIAGE.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I read the article a week ago and just reread it. So, is it safe to assume that even though she wants time and space, that I should continue to send notes and flowers and whatever so that she knows I'm still here and that I still care? The article mentions negotiating to end the affair. I get from that, that I don't actually SAY "end the affair and this is what you get." I SHOW "end the affair and this is what you get." Is that right? Negotiating isn't like in buying a car, its just showing her what things could be like if she came home. Am I on to it?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>One word about something you said, and I am sorry to say it. Think = time with OP (other person). Wayward spouses rarely use the time to think, unless it is about the OP. It's an excuse. If you don't meet her needs during this time, the OP will. As far as Plan A'ing her long distance, it is difficult, but possible. Be careful, don't smother her, but let her know you exist - with LOVE. No lovebusters.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I figured that this was probably what she meant I just didn't want to believe it.<P>What do I do about the call Sunday night?<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_but_true (edited July 28, 2001).]

There are very few specifics on how to plan A. But you still need to read the articles.<P>Plan A cannot be implemented until you learn about EN's (emotional needs). There is LOTS of information on this site on those. <P>It is near impossible to give easily understandable definitions of what Plan A is. As you've already read on this thread, there are 3 basic areas to it. <P>1- to fulfil your W's EN's<BR>2- to NOT love bust<BR>3- to make changes in you that make you a better person (and the H that no W would want to be without).<P>So, your 'homework' is to read up on EN's, lovebusters, and plan a and plan b.<P>The EN's for every person are different. Some of them aren't necessary to some people, yet some people need certain amounts of all 10. There are questionnaires on this site that can help you and your W find out which EN's are most important to each of you. I believe that the general concensus during plan A is to focus on the top 5 EN's of your spouse (but keep in mind, you may not be allowed to by your spouse... such as with SF - sexual fulfillment. Any EN's she won't let you meet, is probably because they are already being met by the OP).<P>If she won't fill out the questionnaires for you, my suggestion is to try and fill them out for her. Be honest with yourself. Thinking of past conversations where seemingly small comments have been made will be your best clues. The phrase 'little things mean a lot' comes to mind.<P>There is also a Love Buster questionnaire. Fill it out too.<P>And one last piece of information for you (for now?). You will see a lot of references to how hard it is to plan A. IMO, the reason for that is because YOUR EN's aren't being met by your spouse during that time. When your EN's are being fulfilled, that's what gives you the energy to keep on with plan A. But if they're not, after you've given your suggested minimum 6 months into plan A, that is when it may be time to consider plan B. In order to preserve whatever love you have left for your W.<P>I hope this may help to clarify some of this for you. Be sure to ask questions, as many as you need to, once you've done your "homework" <P>Karen<BR>

OK, I'm beginning to see what I need to do. I will read more of the site and track down the SAA book, I have HN/HN.<P>What I guess I need to know now is, do I call her Sunday evening? And if I CAN send notes and flowers and such, how often before its smoothering. I guess I have to let her tell me when its smoothering. Can I send her pictures of the kids so she remembers that they're here? Is pulling at her emotions that way, too much?<P>Thanks to everyone for the help. Being only 10 days into the "separation" I'm still a little dazed.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_but_true (edited July 28, 2001).]

SBT,<P>I think that you definetly need to Plan A like crazy. Your situation sounds alot like mine except the miles. Mine is more like 50 but I think she is getting an apt. back in my city again (not sure if that good or bad) The thing is we can't worry about those things when Plan A'ing. You need to start meeting those EN's and you also need to demonstrate a change in you so that it will change her prediction of a future with you. She obviously was not strong enough to come to you with her problems whatever they were and choose to have an A instead. This in unexcusable, but if you want to reconcile you need to remember to creat a safe environment for her to talk, do not get defensive with her even if you know you are right and be prepared to shoulder some of the consequnces and circumstances of her sin. <BR>This decision is hard for her and she will need time to clearly think it through, hopefully her family is against it b/c that will make it harder for her. Just remember to measure your amount of contact based on her reactions to it.<BR>I was in the same boat and I just stopped talking about the affair and started talking about everything else under the sun and found that conversation went much better. Let her bring it up and remember don't disagree on anything if you do just give her a "huh" and that's it, but if you do agree...agree enthusiastially! Space is a tough thing but in time she will safe to come out of her shell..create the environment for her do do that. The last piece of advice I can give and the most important is to get right with the Lord, he has done a tremendous amount of work in my life. He wil teach you how to forgive and give you the patience and self-control you need to get through this mess. Trust in him with all you heart. Pray, Pray and Pray.<P>Hope it helps!<P>GC

SBT:<P>Being dazed at this point is normal. You are taking the requisite steps and your intent and determination to salvage the marriage is admirable.<P>MB is one of the best, if not the best, resource around to help. When talking to your wife, try to phrase things in an "I" sense. Like, "I miss you, dear ... and my cards and messages are a re-affirmation of the love I failed to express while you were here." See? Gets the point across, does not love bust, but points no accusatory "you" finger.<P>The upshot of it all is, regardless of the final outcome in your situation, the skills developed in outlook using MB principles will help you grow. So you are on the beginning steps of a win-win proposition here.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

One more suggestion on where top find good info. Go to the Just Found Out Forum, and go to the post called Notable Posts/Threads. THere's lots of good stuff in there by category - including a Plan A section.<P>I regards to your W not wanting much contact - I'm there with ya'. My H doesn't want much contact, and it's a very narrow line between pestering him and demonstrating my love and desire to work things out. You may decide to write a letter to explain your love. But read and study a good bit here first. The main thing is to not LB. <P>My H had an A 2 months ago, and moved out a month ago - we've been married 7 years - together 11. I am in plan A.<P>Good luck! Read lots and come back and post anytime. You are not alone.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28