Hi Faith, and everyone,<P>What a mess!! So full of misunderstandings... <P>I am an old-timer who began a thread about three months ago... directed to the old-timers. A few people got upset about it, but for the most part, I was supported. This "problem" has been around for awhile... months, anyway.<P>I know Frank doesn't need me defending what he wrote (and yes, I can completely see how it comes across, although I don't think he meant it so harshly... I hope not, anyway)... but... he has been flamed but good too... as I have, as many have. If you've been around and posting for any length of time (and hey, I top all of ya's with the counting the posts, since I began with a different name "new_beginning" ~~ I have over 5000 posts) you're gonna be flamed at some time. No, that doesn't make it right, but it is the reality. I have been very, very hurt by some things said to me. It goes with the territory, I guess.<P>...and so it goes round and round and round... hurt feelings, posting something that hurts, hurt feelings, posting something that hurts... not that any of it's right... <P>...it just "is"...<P>I wish I could describe TRULY, in a way that wouldn't hurt, what it was like when I came here in 1999. I wish there was a way to show you, but alas, I cannot, because there was a crash of the website, and all our stuff was lost. When we bagan again, another kinda-crash happened, which is where the "read only" posts come from. Then they separated out the boards, which is what you see today. <P>All I know is that when I came as a WS (and a BS, but it was my affair that brought me here) I was gently, yet firmly, guided to follow the concepts of MB-- and the people telling me about the concepts had LIVED THEM and USED THEM and KNEW EXACTLY HOW TO LEAD ME. It wasn't just opinion and hand-holding, although that was here too... <P>As an over-40 year old woman who remembers the "good ol' days" in life ~okay, it was the 70's ~ I don't think it's way off base to want to remember the "good ol' days" of MB. That DOES NOT mean that there isn't value here now, or that there aren't new people who come in, like I did, and devour all the information and then share what they've learned. My problem has been, and continues to be, when someone jumps in, says so-and-so about Plan A, has no idea what Plan A is about though, or says, "dump the bum" without reading the principles/concepts here.<P>As the resident "if we all had a candle what a bright world it would be" person, I do wish ALL OF US peace...<P>God knows we need some.

I think there are many people that are taking this as some kinda "Old-timers" vs "Newbies" thing and that is <B>NOT</B> the case.<P>It has never been said that we (the oldtimers) feel newcomers to the boards have nothing to offer.<BR>I came to the boards around the same time as some of the "old-timers" that have posted on this thread. We were all newbies for the most part back then.<BR>The difference I see is <BR>the attitude on the boards now vs the attitude on the boards then<BR>the advice given now vs the advice given then<P>I see statements and advice given now about plan A that are so way off base<BR>I see people giving pats on the back for LB's<BR>I see people being blasted for falling off the wagon and then that turning into some kind of game<BR>I see people being advised to go to Plan B when it just seems waaaaaayyyyyy to early (I LIVED with a WS during his affair for 7 months - HP Plan A'd his WS for 18 months during which her affair went on for the most part during that time WE DO KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE!!!!)<BR>The truth about Plan B is <B>nobody</B> and I mean <B>nobody</B> can tell you when it is a good time to do it and we were always careful to say that<BR>"Only you know if you are completely ready to handle Plan B and only you know if you can't Plan A anymore and only YOU know if your Plan A has been sufficient to survive Plan B (that's a BIG one folks)<P>I am not trying to make this into some sort of pissing contest (I'm a girl and can't win that one - besides my aim isn't very good )<BR>Nor am I trying to make this into a popularity contest.<BR>I think I speak for most oldtimers when I say that we would be <B>MORE</B> than happy to hand the reighns over to newbies<BR>But - and this is a big but - we don't feel comfortable letting the reigns go when the boards are like this.<P>I apologize if this is coming across as a "we are so better" type of thing<BR>I guess what I want to say is <BR>"things were so much better then" type of thing.<P>Nicole<P>

I have been here since the "good ol days", August of 1999, and I have a much different take on it than the other "oldtimers". While I agree with pretty much all of what Heartpain has stated, if my memory serves me correctly, the same things occurred in 1999. There were still posters getting into heated debates/arguments, there were still posters stating "throw the bum out", and there were still posters who came along simply to start trouble, and now, just like then, there are still thoughtful, compassionate people attempting to help others sort through the mess that they find themselves in at the moment. <P>It seems to me that just like in regular 'ol life, we emotional human beings tend to remember things in a fashion that probably is a lot better or worse than they actually were, particularly when comparing the past to the present. For example, WS' during their affairs, and probably initially right after D-Day, tend to only remember the bad things about the marriage, and will most often exaggerate them in their minds, while BS' tend to remember all of the good things about the marriage, often exaggerating those. In reality, it probably lies somewhere in the middle.<P>I say all of that to say to those that are considered "newbies"(I too hate that term), I wouldn't get too upset about what some of the "oldtimers" have posted. Things are really no worse than what they were in the "good 'ol days", nor are they any better. IMHO, I think that it is simply the frustration of having to read about the intense pain that affairs cause, which I think tends to cause some of the older posters to relive the pain that that went through at the same stages that the "newbies" are encountering. Who knows, 2 years from now, the posters that are considered "newbies" now will be complaining about the tone of the boards while longing for the good ol days. <P>Maybe some time away from the boards, and the fresh pain that is on these boards, may just be what the doctor ordered.<P>For what it's worth, that's my $.02<P><p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited August 02, 2001).]

What? Satan? OMG here on MB?????<P>

THANKS for making some truly educational reading. Everyone's true feelings are really coming out. You can tell when someone really cares about these boards - which are our life lines (maybe at this moment in our life), you surely can't be at your neighbor's house for hours spilling these beans.<P>(off the topic, I feel frustrated right now, and just feel like crying - this reading has truly hit my heart - thanks for your heartwarming responses).

Hi all,<BR>I am a new here and felt that I should reply to this topic. I have seen some negotive attitudes and replies from some members. On the other hand I have seen more positive than negotive, I won't let the negotive discourage me from visiting or posting, besides if I let the negotive get me down I would have ended my marriage before coming here.<BR> I don't know what things were like in the good old days, but I feel that for the most part this sight has been constructive, enlightining and very helpful. I do see hope for us newbies, even if the oldtimers don't. I know that the old and new members participating in this forum aren't all certified counselors or psycologists and even if they were, everyone is different and everyone gives different advice. Some people give advice from their emotions and some from their inteligence or both depending on the circumstances. Yes, advice from the emotional side of things tend to be more damaging, but I believe I am here because I have been an emotional wreck since the A was exposed, so I can see where things can become emotional here. <BR>I believe no matter where you go you won't find the perfect advice that will fix all of our problems, and I don't believe good advice to one person is always good for another. <BR>I believe, I can take the advice for what its worth. If I don't believe it is good for me, I'll leave it on the table. If the advice seems like it will work, I'll take it and run with it, just don't blame anyone if it doesn't work out, because it is my decision to take the advice.<BR>I try not to give advice if I don't know what I'm talking about(I don't pretend to know everything). If I can't relate to someones problems or give advice to them, I try to empathize and give words of encouragement. <BR>What I am saying is from my perspective as a new member here is that nothing is perfect, and I feel this sight has helped my W and I a lot. I think as bad as the older members see it, I see it as the best place to get advice from people that have had experiences similar to ours.E

er... <B>Faith1</B>, ... <P>Lemmee borrow a quote from your post and twist it to my own nefarious uses...<P>"...there's some very negative comments coming around that HURT the feelings of those of us who are trying to keep the integrity and value of the board."<P>Sound familiar? It should... just about everybody involved in this apparent conflict (which I can't honestly say I fully understand) is using this as their battle cry.<P>I say, enough is enough. Drop this whole thing right now. It's leeching into too many threads, upsetting too many people, prevent all of us from dealing with <I>more important issues</I>.<P>No more name calling, blaming, attacking, condescending... this is a place of healing, for newbie, oldie, middle person... <P>It doesn't matter who said what anymore or who started it.<P>Let's all just cut it out.<P>If we can't gather here and get along like decent folk should (particularly since one can always choose to scroll past any thread or post), how in the world are we supposed to get along with a <I>spouse</I>. <P>Lets all just drop this now, start over and all agree that there shall be no more harsh words. <P>ok ?<P><BR>my last 2 cents,<BR>deut

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F A:<BR><B>I have been here since the "good ol days", August of 1999, and I have a much different take on it than the other "oldtimers". While I agree with pretty much all of what Heartpain has stated, if my memory serves me correctly, the same things occurred in 1999. There were still posters getting into heated debates/arguments, there were still posters stating "throw the bum out", and there were still posters who came along simply to start trouble, and now, just like then, there are still thoughtful, compassionate people attempting to help others sort through the mess that they find themselves in at the moment. <P>It seems to me that just like in regular 'ol life, we emotional human beings tend to remember things in a fashion that probably is a lot better or worse than they actually were, particularly when comparing the past to the present. For example, WS' during their affairs, and probably initially right after D-Day, tend to only remember the bad things about the marriage, and will most often exaggerate them in their minds, while BS' tend to remember all of the good things about the marriage, often exaggerating those. In reality, it probably lies somewhere in the middle.<P>I say all of that to say to those that are considered "newbies"(I too hate that term), I wouldn't get too upset about what some of the "oldtimers" have posted. Things are really no worse than what they were in the "good 'ol days", nor are they any better. IMHO, I think that it is simply the frustration of having to read about the intense pain that affairs cause, which I think tends to cause some of the older posters to relive the pain that that went through at the same stages that the "newbies" are encountering. Who knows, 2 years from now, the posters that are considered "newbies" now will be complaining about the tone of the boards while longing for the good ol days. <P>Maybe some time away from the boards, and the fresh pain that is on these boards, may just be what the doctor ordered.<P>For what it's worth, that's my $.02]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Very well said, FA. I think we have forgotten some of the disagreements, OP posting, etc. that has happened over the years. As an in-betweener (I don't feel like I'm an old-timer, since I don't get to post much) I think one of the huge problems is that we (all of us who know the Marriage Builders principals) are not directing those new individuals enough. Myself included. I also think we are feeling the loss of NSR and those like him, who took the time to post a welcome to so many people...<P>Very many have tried, but it does take a big chunk of time to "greet" everyone. (Thank you all who have done so much for this board and for all of us!) <P>So, I hope to be better in directing and helping, when I am able. I am not verbose in this forum, but I hope to get over it. <P>P.S. I sure hope those whose feelings are/were hurt will no longer feel that way. I feel all who have posted have contributed to this site, much more than I (I only have 445 posts to my name and have been registered since April 1999 and that is including the ones where I have bumped threads up). <BR>

I agree with deut.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<BR>

This thread (and other's like it) is absolutely necessary for the health of this forum. We need to hold a mirror to ourselves from time to time and critically ask if we like what we see AND work to fix it if we don't. A lot of us newcomers are caught up in the emotions of our own situations and those around us. Things we say don't always come out exactly "right". It's nice to have "old timers" around with the perspective of seeing this board under different circumstances and potentially thinking with clearer heads. <P>I doubt that the forum can ever be returned exactly to what it once was - all things change. But, it can still be a place of help, a place of support, or a place of refuge for those who need it.<P>It was very painful for me to watch many people I like and respect get drawn into the "flame" wars a short time ago. It did not happen overnight, the buildup was long and slow (hmmm, what's familiar about that?) and then the situation exploded with many threads coming to a head at the same time (plus some malicious shots by drive-by posters). The feeling of helplessness was the worst. Like an A, how could we make it stop? We couldn't. It just had to wash over us. So many personal situations seemed to be taking a turn for the worse, then all the personal attacks. I had to cut back on my time here during that period (real life vacation helped out a little too), but I ultimately just couldn't keep away.<P>Fortunately, with time, reason prevailed - isn't that one of the hard lessons we try to learn here? I now believe that this forum will be better because of what happened and what we learned from it. It is hard work to be civilized ALL THE TIME. I think we need occasional threads to remind us of the extraordinary level of etiquette and courtesy this forum requires.<P>Bad advice. Yeah there's lots of it. Good advice. Some of that too. Plus, everything in between. The ONLY WAY I can think of to counter bad advice is by offering good advice. <P>This is our board. ALL OF US. It's sad if anyone leaves because they don't feel appreciated or don't see value here (old or new). I hope those who left check back occasionally. Maybe we should work on Plan A for our forum.<P>When I first came here, I'd read the active posts with lots of responses and see a range of suggestions. Suddenly, one would hit the core of the problem. I'd check the profile of the poster -- BINGO, "old timer".<P>Old timers: You've been where all of us newcomers are right now. You know what we're going through. You've also come out the other side of the tunnel. You KNOW this stuff works! Your insight and perspective can help us. We need you. I'm sorry that I don't have anything to offer in return other than THANK YOU.<P>Respectively,<BR>-Jeffers<P>P.S. An etiquette issue: if there's anyone here that I forgot to thank for responding to one of my posts I'm sorry. Rest assured that I really appreciated your thoughts. I can guarantee that I looked at your profile and probably even checked out some of your past threads for further insight. I won't forget to thank you in the future!<BR>

I heartily second Jeffers take on this.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

deut, I agree COMPLETELY. (although I don't think I called anyone names tee-hee - just kidding - just had to throw that in) THank you. I had decided to drop it too. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone in any way.<P>I think we all agree on what this board should be, but we all have different perspectives (due to what each of us has been through and the length of time here). So, yes, let's get back to the business of supporting and helping each other with our marriages and lives. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 03, 2001).]

!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeenTheLight:<BR><B>I heartily second Jeffers take on this.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>STL I will let you in on a little secret. That would help this board get along much better, and I have to listen to my own words as well.<P>If you don't like what someone says. Don't respond. It keeps tensions to a minimum and I think we all need a little less of it in our lives. Really, would we be on a forum such as this if we didn't???<P>Just some food for thought.

SQ:<P>Which is why I heartily second it (as well as deut ... and I will now add Faith1).<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL See is isn't it a much more happy place when we all just talk nice to each other. I am so happy with the turn this thread has taken.

SQ:<P>Yes, a happy turn is preferrable. However, having dialog on differences is equally important. The key, however, is that when expressing differences, that the tone remain respectful, civil and remain germane to MB issues.<P>[I omitted thanking K and some others for their thoughtful posts. Thanks to all of you as well.]<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited August 03, 2001).]

Christ......this whole thread sounds much like a marriage in dire need of repair. Let's get on with the matters at hand.....and use the recommendations and opinions where they are needed.....in helping each other instead of justifying each and every post.<P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

Just Learning has Just One Last Thought, <P>I think somehow the newer members think that the "good old days" were better. I don't recall anyone having much fun on the MB site. Times weren't very good for anyone posting when I came here Feb. of 99. People were in the middle of dealing with exactly what people now are here dealing with.<P>What was different is something I mentioned before. There were fewer people, and only one place to post. So the advice tended to be more consistent (maybe not better) and everyone had time to read most of the posts. There were some real flaming threads here (DG99) was one of the most prominate that comes to mind.<P>The other thing that should be remembered is that of all those people posting then only a small percentage still do post. (I was determined to hang around here until Chris decided what to do ) <P>Yet it does wear on you. And I think that the newer members here will see this as time goes on. It is part of what makes the approach by Harley pretty good. You are going to see the same stories over and over and over again. The commonalities in affairs and marriage troubles in general are just amazing. (One, of the important things I have learned)<P>One thing that was more common a few years ago were flights of pure silliness (the parties). Where people started a thread and decided a party was in order and people would post the items they would bring. It is hard to do this with the volume of posts now. What made it particularly funny was what someone had posted was often used as the humor. You have to have read the posts to "know" someone that well.<P>So the site has changed, but the purpose hasn't. I truely hope that the newer members will continue to post long after the reason they came here has been resolved. Sort of giving back for what they received, but done in as much of a non love buster way as possible.<P>I personally think that DeWayne's post was much more of a "till we meet again" post, than a rant about the situation here. Yes, things are different, and they may not be as good, but they are what they are and we need to deal with that.<P>Sorry, rambled far too long. Must go home and eat.<P>God Bless All of You,<P>JL