Went to my first therapy session tonight and was told that I should be fighting for the marriage. Went home called the wife to say I was going to fight because she means everything to me. She said not to bother, we will never be together again.<P>My heart is breaking, but at least I have my answer.<P>I'm moving on, so I wish all of you the best in your attempts to save your own marriages. <P>Don't quit!<BR>

Okay back peddle here... I have said I was giving up a hundred times... to myself.. but you can't, as I haven't. If I can make it this long.. with this much caca.. you can to.<P>YOU promised to love her in sickness and health... till death do you part... and she is in a kinda sickness don't you think? Is she the person you married? Nope.. If she was now cancer ridden instead of in an affair, would you give up hope, quit on her? Leave her to her own ends(death). I don't think you would. You would fight till you knew that she couldn't come back to you.<P>Don't give up.<P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

Yeah, yeah.. what he said!! yeah!<P>What's up? What else was there to the conversation? what's been going on lately? I tried to look real fast just now, but can't find the details.<P>Honestly - the fact that you posted to TELL US, means you want some help and advice. You know we wouldn't ignore you or say, "OK! luv ya'! see ya'! Have a good life!"<P>Come on. Talk to us. <BR>

Hey, is that your idea of fighting.<P>You asked a "foggy brained" WS what her opinion was and you hear just what everyone would or should expect....NO WAY...NO CHANCE....!!!!!<P>Is there anyone else here who would have asked WS that guestion and expected a different result?<P>Stay here a while and see how many WS have said that same thing and lived to change their minds with time. Mine did.<P>Faye<P> <BR>

Ha! Gotcha! Here's your post from this morning: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess my problem, being all of 12 days into our separation, is that I thought if I said exactly the right thing she would come right back. But you are correct, I have to quit expecting this to be solved easily. I don't know if I can keep at Plan A, but I won't give up just yet. I'm in no hurry to find someone else or get remarried, so I have time. She's never given me the "love, but not in love" line and continues to end conversations and notes with "I will always love you." She still has feelings for me, and I just have to be patient. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Stick around with us, sbt. You can get through this. I know you are hurting. But 12 years together! It will be so worth you fighting for this!!!! 12 years together - don't give up after 12 days of separation! talk to us

Her premise is that she has given up everything in her life for 12 years to be with me and she's been miserable that entire time. In her mind it hasn't been just the past few months, but the past 12 years. She says that she is happy now. That she doesn't believe this other guy and her will be together forever, but that he makes her feel special now.<P>She's got her life figured out, what she wants, how she can get it. She actually does sound happier. But as much as I would give up everything to have her back, she doesn't want me to go through the same pain she has for 12 years. <P>I don't want to give up, but how long do I do it before I lose me? What do I do to keep it alive without seeming desparate and clingy? I just don't see a way to try and have any self-respect left over at the end.<P>If you have concrete steps and tips let me know, otherwise I can only worry about making myself happy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Husband2you:<BR><B>Okay back peddle here... I have said I was giving up a hundred times... to myself.. but you can't, as I haven't. If I can make it this long.. with this much caca.. you can to.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did it work? Did not quiting bring your spouse back?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buffy:<BR><B>Hey, is that your idea of fighting.<P>You asked a "foggy brained" WS what her opinion was and you hear just what everyone would or should expect....NO WAY...NO CHANCE....!!!!!<P>Is there anyone else here who would have asked WS that guestion and expected a different result?<P>Stay here a while and see how many WS have said that same thing and lived to change their minds with time. Mine did.<P>Faye<P> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But what am I supposed to do when she doesn't want us to be together. The therapist said that he's heard the same story over and over and that he was surprised at my lack of fight. I don't know what to do. I don't see a lot of success stories with the "stick it out and fight" strategy. <P>She says she's happy and that she doesn't want me to try and that she wants me to move on and learn to live for myself. That can't all be BS.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faith1:<BR><B> Stick around with us, sbt. You can get through this. I know you are hurting. But 12 years together! It will be so worth you fighting for this!!!! 12 years together - don't give up after 12 days of separation! talk to us</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am more than hurting. But again, how do you fight for something that isn't yours anymore? Do I stay a doormat for 6-12 months, just in case she changes her mind. I realize that at some point the affair will end and that the grim reality of the real world will hit her, but what do I do until then? <P>How do I begin to show a woman how important she is to me, when I don't know why she left and I don't know what needs I haven't been meeting. Other than the lack of physical intimacy(which I can't fix from 200 miles away and mister lover boy can do just fine) how can I be a better friend if she doesn't want to talk to me? How can I share her recreational interests, if we can't do them together?<P>Tell me!!! I don't have the patience to read every book that's been thrown about. What do I do to show her that I love her enough to fight for her, when she doesn't want me to. What can I do in the next 2 days to get things started?

Well, sbt, friend... we are not here to sell you on MB. There are no guarantees, sadly, but true (your name again). But there are many success stories. You can look them up in the Just FOund Out forum under the Notable Post thread. SUccess Stories. YOu can also see them in the Recovery Board. Noone said it would be easy either. It will be hard work, and only YOU can decide if you are willing. And NO ONE here will think you are a quitter if you decide this path is not for you. k? <P>You have to decide if your marraige is worth fighting for. We're not there - you are.<P>I can tell you also, that your W is saying many of the same things my H told me, and I've seen others with the same story. That doesn't provide much comfort. But it's true. WS's tend to say things like that to rid themselves of guilt, and to take the easy way out - to not have to work on fixing the marriage.<P>Another sad, but true part of this forum, is once marriages are healed, some people don't stay around to show us the light at the end of the tunnel. I know when I rebuild with my H, I will want to focus on him mostly, and may not spend much time here. <P>Step-by-step?: You know Plan A by now. Fill EN's, avoid LB's, learn and grow yourself. And you want to make yourself happy??? Plan A works on YOU. You will find new ways - and support and ideas here - on how to make YOU happy. In Plan A, you will grow as an individual, and enhance every aspect of your life. And Happy??? What if your effort pay off and your marriage is healed and becomes more than it ever was? How happy will you be then? And you W will be happy and grateful you didn't give up.<P>But you have to decide. you asked how long to wait? You'll have to decide that as well. Set a short -term goal. Plan A for a month (or two weeks) and see how it goes. What would it hurt? Then at the end of that time, evaluate your situation decide whether or not to move forward or not. <P>Do you think you can give it a month? What's a month out of your life to try something? you don't have to decide right this minute - I'm in this for two years!!! No. Try it for a month. That's the month of August.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buffy:<BR><B>You asked a "foggy brained" WS what her opinion was and you hear just what everyone would or should expect....NO WAY...NO CHANCE....!!!!!<P>Is there anyone else here who would have asked WS that guestion and expected a different result?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She said our problems are not related to the affair and that in her mind the marriage ended years ago. That we've just been roommates. That even if the affair wouldn't have happened she had to leave to save herself?<P>How do you work with that?<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faith1:<BR><B>Do you think you can give it a month? What's a month out of your life to try something? you don't have to decide right this minute - I'm in this for two years!!! No. Try it for a month. That's the month of August.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can give it as much time as it takes if I truly thought it would bring her back. I can work on me without trying to get us together, so that fact that Plan A is for helping me isn't much of a selling point.<P>I guess what I've never had answered here is let's say for the sake of argument, that one of her unmet emotional needs is to hear me say and mean it that I love her and that I will cherish her forever? I've said it a dozen times a day and meant it every time. What do I do to get that through to her that this time I DO mean it? So that she does believe it?<P>Let's say for the sake of argument, that another of her unmet emotional needs is for ME to be interested in her interests. She likes Bruce Springsteen(a lot), she likes John Updike(the author) and she likes to dance. None of these things have I shown a great interest in, but I don't hate them. What do I do to get through to her that I actually really like these things too? Should I give up Chinese food, jazz and wine to appease her for having to spend 12 years faking interest in those things?<P>OK, I get "don't give up." But what I don't get is what specifically can I do in a Plan A way(specifics) to at least keep my little toe in the door? Do I send flowers everyday(expensive at some point), cards, letters, call her(again expensive at some point). WHAT!!!

Well, I spent like forever typing out that beautiflu reply to you , and you've been a busy little bee doing what I asked - talking to us.<P><B>Tell me!!! I don't have the patience to read every book that's been thrown about. What do I do to show her that I love her enough to fight for her, when she doesn't want me to. What can I do in the next 2 days to get things started?</B><P>ok. SOunds to me like your W doesn't want to talk right now. Give her some space. You told her you want to fight for her - she knows that now, so you don't need to tell her anything else right now. She will be ok for a couple of days. That's all you can do right now. You can't beat her over the head with deparation. It will push her away.<P>If you can't talk to her, you want to know what else to do? Read, my friend. I know it seems overwhelming. You don't have to read everything in one day. You obviously know some of the principles already - you are naming them. <P>You are right, it's hard to Plan A in separation. My H is not with me either. But it's actually easier to begin working on yourself with her not with you. Find things you like to do and do them. You have to let her go for now. She's gone. But the point is, she may come back. What if she gets tired of OM? DOn't you want to be there for her? <P>DO you pray? DO that. A lot!! Write in a journal. Begin writing a love letter to her. Work on it for several days before sending it. <P>If you will read a lot here and the Harley and Dobson book, you willl arm yourself with things to say to your W when you talk - and things not to say. What's the rush? Talking to her right now will push her away. But that doesn't mean run down to the attorney. learn another way to LOVE her. She's sort of testing you, "How much do you love me? Enough to change? Enough to learn about my needs?" you mentioned that she won't/can't tell you her needs. Have you read His Needs Her Needs? Most women have the same basic needs. Affection, COnversation, Financial Support, Family commitment, HOnesty and openness. Perhaps the only ones you can fulfill right now are honesty and family commitment (to the marraige). <P>Anyway, I guess I've rambled enough. Just hang in there, ok? You don't have to make any commitemnts tonite. but we are here for you if and when you want some help.<P>

I see your other questions. i will give you a moment to catch up wiht my other reply. i'll be back in a minute. k?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faith1:<BR>You have to let her go for now. She's gone. But the point is, she <B>may</B> come back. What if she gets tired of OM? DOn't you want to be there for her? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, she <B>may</B> be back. She also might not. How can you live with that uncertainty and get up every morning, look yourself in the mirror and say "Just one more day?" When does your own self-respect run out?<P>She told me that she doesn't think the other guy and her will be together forever. I doubt they will and I have already forgiven her for the hurt she continues to inflict. I'm not worried about that turning into something. What I'm worried about is that she'll be on her own, away from this "terrible" marriage and life will seem happy again. What incentive is for her to return? Life is better for me now, because I haven't been happy about some of the things she did. But I don't need to run away to make life better. How do I convince her that the marriage she would come back to wouldn't be the same one she left?<P>I do want to be there for her. But how?!?!?!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_but_true (edited July 30, 2001).]

sbt... such good questions my friend. I wish so much that I had all the answers. Please remember that none of us here are trained counselors, but we can try to help best we can. What you really need to do to get accurate answers is to read from the experts. His Needs Her Needs, and Surviving and Affair. The principles (articles and Q&A's) on the MB web-site. I know it seems like a lot of work, but once you start reading, it gets easier. I know you want quick answers. The BEST thing you can do is call and schedule a counseling appointment with the Harleys. Look for the info on the MB website. If not with them, with a local one in your area.<P>THe main thing for you to know, is there are things you can do to make some efforts. The more things you write about your W saying are the same things, you know, "fogese" that other WS's are saying. They can sound so convincing with their explanations. "never been truly happy", "our problems have nothing to do with the A". SUre, problems existed before the affair, but you are the one willing to work on them right now.<P>the hope that my H <B>may</B> wake up soon and come home is enough to keep me motivated from day to day - most days!! (you saw my blues - I'm human )<P>when I look in the mirror every day.... sometimes I have to ask myself how much longer. I usually have to ask God how much longer, and I pray for strength and wisdom every day. but I never lose my self-respect!!! I am standing by the person that I vowed to love, honor and cherish, till death do us part, in sickness and in health. I am fighting a noble fight. And I will look back and know that I did everything I could. No one will ever say I gave up. i respect myself enough to believe I am worth a long-lasting marriage, and respect myself to believe I am the best wife for my husband. Anyone can make a mistake (my H), and I can forgive once for this mistake, and hope he gets back on track. I won't wait around forever. I have lots to offer, and someone deserves to have me as their wife for a lifetime. When I look in the mirror, I see someone who forgives their H for a mistake, and loves him the way he needs to be loved - the way Christ loves us. He never gives up on us, even when we make mistakes.<P>Now, what can you do to convince her? FOr now, give her some space. Over the next few days, read and pray. read some of the threads here. We can help you figure out some things to say to her the next time you talk. Begin writing her a letter. You don't need to do anything tonight or tomorrow. ok?? It sounds terribly difficult. wait. patience. perhaps the first lesson. It's the first thing I had to work on myself. it was HARD!!! Every time I turned around, something in my life was beating me over the head. patience!!!! traffic, problems at work, other family issues... I had to learn patience, and wait. so perhaps that's your first lesson too. <P>I need to get some sleep. it's 12:!5 here and I'm pooped.<P>i dont' know why I'm inspired to try to help you. Something about you and your story causes me to reach out. you may never post again. you may decide it's not worth it. i'll never think bad about you if that's your choice. You have been a blessing to me tonight, giving me a chance to stand for something I believe in, and express some of my thoughts in words. And perhaps, someone else will read these messages and gain a slight something from them.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

My self respect fleets everyday. From the moment that I wake up till the moment that I go to bed. I have tried this on my own, alone, really for a few months with only little contact with my W and I was in the same unhappy boat. I think what Faith is trying to get you to go through, is this.<P>Regardless of how you feel each and every morning that you wake up... there is you. Once complete and whole, and the other half who helped make you you, walked. Now... if you toss in the towel, right now, as we ALL want to do each and everyday, you could live the rest of your life and wonder... "was there anything, I could have done, to save my marriage?" <P>I don't want that on my mind. Never. I already carry that in my mind in wondering if I could have done anything as a child to help keep my parents together. Could have I? Nope probably not. But I'm the type of person that has to know that what I put into something is worth saving after helping destroy it.<P>When we follow the MB Principals and we go through this daily ritual of pain, disgust, disappointment and wondering where our next meal ticket of worth is going to come from, we all have to remember that it IS going to come.. but in time. <P>Tick Tock goes the clock... as my wife just said last week. When you plan A your [censored] off and you finally get to the point of having a quart left in your engine of love.. then toss in plan A and follow Plan B. Live with Plan B for you. That is your healing stage. You for you. Plan A is for her... to help her see what she is going to miss... when you finally have trained yourself to be the better person. <P>I don't know if any of that made since.. since I live this day in and day out. I have been doing this since Feburary 1999, my friend. I have lost my home, our wedding rings, my dignity and friends. My family is tired and standoffish with me about the whole mess. I only have me and my boys right now and I am going to give them what they deserve. If my wife wants to come home to that, when I perfect whatever I am trying to accomplish, then we all walk away winners. If I fail, I fail.. My CHILDREN, MY FAMILY and MY FRIENDS will ALL know that I tried with every ounce of love and patience in my heart. <P>You may not have that in your heart and that doesn't mean your less of a person. We all have our limits and I definetely am reaching mine. 3-6 months of this and I will be considering a FIRM and EXACTING Plan B. Maybe sooner, now that recent things have happened with us over the last week or two. <P>Anyhow, I don't expect you to fight for 1 year or even the forsaken spirit killing 2 years.. but I want you to at least put a time line on this ... say 3 months plan A and 9 months Plan B. Then you divorce. You have to make the timeline on your own... please don't put me in that position. I gave my Wife till Feburary of this year to come around. Things in my life and hers changed that, and now I have reset my Plan A timeline... since I SUCKED so bad at doing plan A before. I never stopped to breathe and take a break, for my sanity. I should have never left MB the two, three and four times I did. It only prolonged my pain and made me weaker. <P>If you see Chris123.. his Dday is after mine. Now Chris much more patient person than I am.... although, our situations differ GREATLY. He's at the end of his rope... as I am nearing the same. <P>Our wives were our friends for life and as Chris, you can't be a friend to someone who continues to sh.it on you. But we are both going to walk away better people because we took the steps to let ourselves down gently. Cold turkey... isn't any fun. My character won't allow it. <P>I'll help you out as much as I can. Just ask in your Subject.. as I'm sure Faith will also. You have so much to lose to give up now.<P>Remember if you have to... In Sickness and Health, For Richer, For Poorer, for Better or Worse, till death do us part.. etc etc... put it on your mirror.. your dash board your wallet and on your forhead. <P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

OK. Stop me if I'm wrong. You are all saying "fight" but even your own fights are taking their toll. You say that what my wife says is typical, my therapist said the same thing, but how do any of us know that she's NOT feeling the things she says. How do I know that she isn't really happy now? That even is the affair ends, she's not still going to be happier being out of our marriage.<P>On another post of mine here someone said "Don't you hear her saying she wants you to tell her you love her" or something to that affect. The therapist said, "She may be saying give me time and space, but mostly she just wants you to tell her you love her and you're there for her." I asked her last night how she couldn't want someone to really love her and care for her like I can, and she said that "its just not going to make either of us happy." What makes everyone so sure that she just doesn't love me anymore and is completely happy where she's at, with or without the other guy? What is she saying that gives everyone the impression that when she says "give me space and time" that she means "tell me you love me?" Everyone seems to hear something in what she's saying but I'm not hearing it. What is it??<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Husband2you:<BR><B>My self respect fleets everyday. From the moment that I wake up till the moment that I go to bed. I have tried this on my own, alone, really for a few months with only little contact with my W and I was in the same unhappy boat. I think what Faith is trying to get you to go through, is this.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I appreciate what you and Faith are trying to say. It is helping me feel better about whatever might happen. But even though we love our spouses, can't each of you admit that maybe, just maybe, they <B>are</B> happier without you. That for the first time they feel special to themselves.<P>I know that the affair won't last. Her family isn't being supportive of her in it, especially the lying. She doesn't think it will last. Statistics point out that it more than likely won't last. Fine. We all agree it won't last.<P>But, how do we know that we aren't being sold a bill of goods to keep "fighting the good fight" to get our spouses back. How do any of us know that our spouses aren't just happy and we should, if we really love them, be happy for them. How do we know that they are in a "fog" and that someday they'll come to their senses. Maybe they were in a "fog" during the marriage and it lifted, allowing them to move on with their lives in the way they want to.<P>I don't want to be a pesimist, but what is being said here is that I should give it the good college try of 3-18 months and if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But while you have to lose a little of yourself to be married, is that loss worth the pain and effort? Wouldn't it be better for us all to throw up our hands and say "OK, I'm done." And then try to move on and find someone else. Someone that this time we'll spend extra time making sure that they are the right one. Spending extra time making sure that this doesn't happen again. <P>Sorry, but while I love my wife, right now I don't know if the effort to win her back is worth it. I wish it was. Maybe I'm still in a daze as to how quickly this all happened and about the phone call last night. <P>She didn't <B>say</B> she wanted a divorce and when she did say anything about not being together she said "its what's best." She then wanted to know what I was going to do. Like if I was going to go file the paperwork. I told her "I'm not going to do anything." So I have a little optimism right now, but unless I can figure out my strategy soon, I really think its not going to work.<P>I'll probably try to play on the "friend" angle. We've been each other's best friends for a long time and she keeps saying she wants us to stay friends. Maybe I can just send a note once in a while to let her know I still love and care for her and that I'm still here if she needs me. But, I can't help thinking that its not really enough to get her back.

sad_but_true,<BR>I have told my H the very same thing your W is telling you now. that there is no way we could get back together. He should just move on with his life and learn to be happy without me. But he never let me forget that he loved me.<BR>not for one moment the whole time the A was going on. Not while I was in the fog, not while I was coming out of the fog. He made sure in some way the I knew he would alway love me no matter what I thought, where I was or what I wanted. but he also worked on himself.<BR>So I want to encourage you to see the things within yourself that you would like to change and start to work.<BR>Give her all the space she needs, but do the little things that let her know you love her no matter what or how long it takes her to find herself. She sounds very much confused now and one way of running away from everything is to tell you there is no hope. When things go wrong, it's easy to exaggerate the time frame. I really doubt that she has been miserable for all of those 12 years. But to justify her behavior, she thinks back over every little thing that might have gone wrong during that whole time frame.<BR>Now you have to decide if your marriage is worth fighting for. That doesn't make you clingy or whiny. It shows that you love her very much. How long you want to work on it is something only you can figure out. It sounds like you haven't worked on it at all up to now so of course she would sound happier without you. How come you don't have the patience to read those books that could be of some value to you. One very good book my H read while I was lost out there in the fog was a book by Gary Smalley called<BR>"Winning your Wife back before it's too late" My H told me it was an excellent book that really helped him with ideas and to get a grip on things. He also read "His Needs/Her Needs" And while he was reading he was working on himself.<BR>He is the man I have always wanted in my life. We have our good days and bad days, but I don't want to go on thru life without him in it.<BR>So Sad, get out there and fight for your marriage and your wife. Then whatever happens in the end, you will have no regrets either way. And by the way, don't believe what your W says while she is involved in the A, she will say anything to justify her behavior and to not feel guilty for hurting you.<BR>Debbie