In my post yesterday, "Plan B venting," I described the situation where my wife showed up unnanounced Monday morning to pick up my son for camp.<P>When I learned of this, I sent her this message:<BR>**************<BR>Monday July 30, 2001<P>I consider it to be unacceptable for you to come pick up <son> unnanounced. As you reminded me recently, it is also<BR>unacceptable for <son> to pass messages regarding his schedule.<P>Please propose a weekly schedule on a weekly basis. I will consider it but I will not jump through hoops to accomodate your irregular work schedule. <Son> needs predictability and stability.<P><Son> will be with me on Friday, August 3, and Sunday, August 5 thru Aug. 9 for a vacation period. He will also be with me every other weekend; I previously proposed 1st and 3rd.<BR>***************<P>In my other post yesterday, "Riverboat gamblers.....," I described two contentious topics, money and childcare. <P>I received the following message from my wife via e-mail this morning (Tuesday):<BR>*************<BR>Please do not try to be controlling. I recall mentioning to you that I was working over <son's> birthday (the end of the week) so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that after you had him all weekend that I would pick him up on Monday. Furthermore, <au pair> was not home over the weekend to tell her about the plans and because I can't speak to you, who was I supposed to tell? Just like when your computer was down, so is mine at home. I asked <son> to have <au pair> to call me. He didn't and she didn't. I don't need to talk to you about anything but <son>, but it's essential that we talk about things concerning his health, happiness, etc. Please don't be so self-centered and selfish as to refuse to communicate about <son>. Furthermore, it is not up to you to dictate to me about any schedule with <son>. The object is to work together and have as little conflict as possible. I have not been rude to you and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. I have always asked if my request is workable. I will have the proposed schedule to you today through <au pair>. Remember, there might be times that you need me to be flexible, so don't shoot yourself in the foot.<BR> Next, when I did pick <son> up to take him to camp, he came to the car in a pair of your pants which were too short, a horribly wrinked shirt, had not washed or brushed anything, and had not eaten. <Son> was visibly upset because he could not find any clothes and <au pair> didn't know where any were. I talked to <au pair> about it and she said she has a hard time figuring out <son's> clothes from yours. I asked her to have <son> put his clothes in his basket and to wash them separately. Then <son> can put them away so he knows where they are. She also said she can't tell your underwear from his. Maybe you can help her. <Son> needs to find his clothes so he looks presentable. If <au pair> can't handle both your and <son's> laundry, maybe you would consider washing your own clothes. Many times, <son> has dirty clothes and is dirty himself. Between the two of you, I'm sure you can solve these problems.<BR> I gave you an itemized bill and $2000 as payment for whatever because you said I owe you money. I am trying to keep up but I need a monthly itemized bill just as you do. I will provide you one monthly after I receive my bank statement and I will pay <au pair> at the beginning of each month so you don't have that debt.<BR>I will also provide you a copy of my retirement accounts which per our agreement is ? due today and I suppose I will receive the same from you so we can adjust the accounts per the agreement. <BR> The agreement also says that we need to divide our things. Do you have suggestions? I will arrange a mover at the earliest convenience. It might be better while you are away with <son>.<BR> Are you leaving on Sunday or can I take him to early church?<BR><Wife><BR>*************<P>Think she's mad? For the record, she left a voice mail message for <son> at home on Sunday, so she knew how to inform us of her Monday morning plans (her reference to my computer being down is probably really meant to mean a reference to when my voice mail was down at work). <Son> wasn't ready for camp Monday morning because he and Taz didn't know she was coming.<P>Here's my proposed reply:<BR>*****************<BR>We will be leaving Monday, so early church is OK with me.<P>The easiest way to communicate is to leave messages on the answering machine for us at home or on my voice mail at work, as I requested in my letter.<P>Please do not use <au pair> as an intermediary. It is not her job. Please communicate to me as I requested in my letter, via voice mail and e-mail. It is simply too painful for me to do otherwise.<P>The separation agreement specifies that you will pay me for childcare expenses, therefore, please do not pay <au pair> directly.<P>As far as dividing our belongings is concerned, please make a proposal about specific things. Physically moving things cannot be done without my presence.<BR>***************<P>I could make all kinds of statements about her accusations of selfishness, rudeness, "object is to work together and have as little conflict as possible," etc. but apparently her mindset prohibits introspection and promotes hypocrisy. Remember, she has never admitted her affair, continues to lie, has refused counseling, and has generally done nothing to resolve problems between us.<P>It's obvious she's moving rapidly towards filing.<P>Any comments or recommendations on my response stated above?<P>Dave (WAT)

Dave,<P>Wow, she doesn't sound so much mad, as she does very businesslike and distant. There is a coldness, a matter-of-fact attitude that would tend toward the fact that she is finished...sorry to have to say that to you, my friend.<P>I really don't have any suggestions. I think your response is to the point and respectful, though. I don't see where you have to worry about LBs, as she seems determined to walk away. You have told her how you feel, and it seems to be that she will ignore you on those feelings. I wish I could sound more positive for you, but have seen this attitude before. The walls are up high, so as not to let you see any emotion at all. I wish I could be more hopeful. I have read over her response several times, looking for any sign, but I honestly think her mind is made up on this.<P>Time to concentrate on you now, and your son. You two have to move ahead and forge the best life possible for the both of you. I truly wish this wasnt going this direction for you. Just know that you have my support anytime you need it. Maybe some of the other vets have more ideas for you to explore.<P>Trueheart

WAT:<P>Plan B is working, and she, apparently is still testing your resolve and your envelope.<P>Keep it up, and I like your letter: it defines YOUR parameters. As for responding to the "rudeness", etc. comments. Respond in your own mind (or make a B version only), short and succinct, as you have it, is great.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Oh D, I'm so sorry for all of us. I think you need to re-direct and just for a little while let her flounder. Don't always be there. It seems that you are focussing on her and not on yourself right now. Plan B I think means no contact. This email contact can be almost more intimate than actually talking. I would suggest (and of course I'm absolutely no expert) going on an extended vacation with your son or completely ignoring her for awhile (well a couple days anyway). Sorry I didn't respond to your email earlier. I'm on a campaigne for seat belts in school buses and I'm planning on re-directing my attention to that. I asked sobelle, want to sign a petition? I plan on being the joan-of-arc for seat belts on school buses. How can a state make it law that seat belts be worn but not provide them in county school buses? (sorry. I'm on a mission here. I think I finally found my purpose.)Please relax - I know it's hard. Don't let her control your actions. I've read your history and see that you had a son that died. I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine. You have my email if sharing details might help....<P>Thanks D for keeping me in the loop....<P>D.

Oh D, I'm so sorry for all of us. I think you need to re-direct and just for a little while let her flounder. Don't always be there. It seems that you are focussing on her and not on yourself right now. Plan B I think means no contact. This email contact can be almost more intimate than actually talking. I would suggest (and of course I'm absolutely no expert) going on an extended vacation with your son or completely ignoring her for awhile (well a couple days anyway). Sorry I didn't respond to your email earlier. I'm on a campaigne for seat belts in school buses and I'm planning on re-directing my attention to that. I asked sobelle, want to sign a petition? I plan on being the joan-of-arc for seat belts on school buses. How can a state make it law that seat belts be worn but not provide them in county school buses? (sorry. I'm on a mission here. I think I finally found my purpose.)Please relax - I know it's hard. Don't let her control your actions. I've read your history and see that you had a son that died. I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine. You have my email if sharing details might help....<P>Thanks D for keeping me in the loop....<P>D.

WAT,<BR> I agree with STL, I think your Plan B is working! I think this "back and forth" w/<S> is wearing her out!! It's TOO MUCH WORK!!<P>That is the point of a good Plan B, to show the WS what future life is going to be like. It's working! She's irritated all the time about making the plans, keeping up the schedule. NOW she's started attacking how he looks. Another attempt to "get to you."<P>I wonder if making a comment during one of your "e-mail contacts" to the effect that this is "real life" would drive a point home? I think she needs to see the long-term effect of this arrangement, that it's uncomfortable, it's inconvenient, it's difficult all the way around. Something like: "This is going to be in our future until <S> is old enough to shuttle himself back and forth, get used to it." Is that a big LB'er anyone?<P>Stand fast. This is painful for you, I know, but fascinating to watch from the outside!<P>Lots of {{{{{{{HUGZ}}}}}}} and God Bless.<P>Lupo

WAT-no advice here (man am I lucky I never had to go to plan B, I suck at it, never really have any advice on how to handle the problems that come with it!!).<P>Sheesh, I'm sorry you're having all these issues to deal with. Hopefully others with actual advice & thoughts will come along soon. I'm thinking of you though.

I couldn't get on the forum yesterday, but this post made it on three times.<P>I went out on e-mail to some of you and got great responses. I agree with trueheart that she has her mind made up. I've thought this for quite a while now, but I think many WSs do at some point. Mine just seems to have the combination of stubborness, grief, possibly long term depression, and an OM who burned all his bridges with his family and has nothing to lose. I don't minimize my contribution to our problems, but frankly, and at the risk of getting flamed, I don't think my contributions were much. My wife acknowledged my improvements months ago, couldn't suggest other things for me to improve upon, yet refused all offers for counseling and has steadily gotten further and further away. Waffling has been almost non-existant.<P>Anyway, here's my revised e-mail text to her that I will send later today, based on input I got from my terrific MB friends:<BR>******************<BR>I understand your frustration, so I ask that you please understand mine. None of this is easy. Any time you need to vent, you can yell at me on voice mail or type messages WITH CAPITAL LETTERS THAT MAKE IT LOOK REAL MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )<P>We will be leaving Monday, so early church is OK with me.<P>The easiest way to communicate is to leave messages on the answering machine for us at home or on my voice mail at work.<P>Please do not use <au pair> as an intermediary. It is not her job and creates an opportunity for misunderstanding. Please communicate to me as I requested in my letter. It is simply too painful for me to do otherwise.<P>The separation agreement specifies that you will pay me for childcare expenses, therefore, please do not pay <au pair> directly.<P>As far as dividing our belongings is concerned, please make a proposal about specific things. I am uncomfortable with not being present when things are moved, so I want to be present when this occurs.<P>As an alternative, none of this would be necessary, as we would have a new marriage better than you ever thought possible. But because you will not even try, you will never know what you are squandering. For <son's> sake, I will be flexible, despite the bad example you are setting for <son> with your relationship with <OM>. <Son> loves and needs his mother in his life as much as possible, and I support this 100%. For your information, I have politely asked <OM> to not associate with <son> because it is detrimental to his growth, health, and happiness.<BR>********************<P>Unless someone thinks this is completely out of line, I clicking the send button this afternoon.<P>WAT

WAT I think you're doing great!! You are giving her exactly what she ask for and she can't handle it. I must say that I do agree with eyeswideopen about the no contact even via e-mail. I know this is tough for you and your son and I'm sorry that you have to go through this. Just stick to your plan!!<BR>Cybil

cybil and EWO - Believe me, I would prefer no contact at all, but the e-mail/voice mail method is what I specified in Plan B because I didn't want to have an intermediary and no one was available to do this very important role.<P>BTW - the message from her in my first post is the longest message she has written to me since she moved out. For the past several months, she's been trying to be civil and flexible, but before Plan B she would not associate with me. Regarding coordination for our son, she has been unreliable, unpredictable, and evasive. As an example, she didn't produce the proposed schedule yesterday that she said she would. What you all can't see is the underlying attitude of defiance and anger towards me. I believe she's angry because I haven't given up and treated her mean so she has more rationalization for her intention to divorce.<P>WAT

Dave-<P>Although I agree with the others that your Plan B seems to be effective, you also seem to be proving my belief that this plan, when kids are involved, does not succeed in removing the BS from the WS in order to save what love still exists. You seem to be more wrapped up in this than ever.<P>I'm not saying Plan B can't work. It just that it was realistically designed without children in mind. Especially when there is shared custody. A pure Plan B would involve no direct contact. E-mail and trading phone messages really are direct contact.<P>All that being said, I think you are doing just fine with what you have to work with. Having two daughters of my own and living under a similiar separation like yours, I know I could never do a "pure" Plan B myself.

A bit more info:<P>Note, in her message, she accuses me of controlling. She got this attack strategy from OM - he also accused me of this and used this argument against his wife as well. This is projection in its starkest form on both of their parts.<P>She's a bit disingenuous regarding the weekend communication - "who was I supposed to tell?" She left a message for <son> on our answering machine Sunday evening which didn't say anything about her Monday morning plans. When <son> called her back a few minutes later, she told him and asked him to tell Taz. Prior to Plan B we communicated very well regarding <son's> schedule - mostly at my initiative. So, to a certain extent, she's hiding behind my Plan B now as an excuse to communicate less - casting the blame on me.<P>You know? I really don't think she's playing games. This is scarry: I believe she is being genuine. She honestly believes she's 100% right with everything she's doing. She's a perfectionist - she can't possibly be wrong. This is why she never waffled much.<P>WAT

Dave,<P>I'm not nearly as pleased with your plan B skills here. Her email back to you was fine, and it gave you valuable information. Sure, it contained disrespectful judgements---but did you expect anything different.<P>She sees YOU as being selfish and self-centered. OK---you need to make sure that you eliminate those LB's from your remaining interactions. Plan B doesn't mean "no contact---but when I do contact you, it's gonna cost you dearly". It's simply no contact---but if there IS contact, you want to preserve your Plan A by not lovebusting. You're not doing that.<P>So, her list of complaints are:<P>1. "Communication" concerning sons health, happiness.<BR>2. Work together to get reasonable schedule concerning custody arrangements.<BR>3. Don't be rude.<BR>4. Work on helping your son with clothes, etc.<BR>5. Itemize your expenses<P>I would strongly suggest that you apologize for coming across in this manner, and that you do your best POJA to deal with all those items. Work through email if possible, but even sit down with her if you must to hammer out these issues. And don't accuse her of being selfish, disingenuous, or anything else. If you sent this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As an alternative, none of this would be necessary, as we would have a new marriage better than you ever thought possible. But because you will not even try, you will never know what you are squandering. For <son's> sake, I will be flexible, despite the bad example you are setting for <son> with your relationship with <OM>. <Son> loves and needs his mother in his life as much as possible, and I support this 100%. For your information, I have politely asked <OM> to not associate with <son> because it is detrimental to his growth, health, and happiness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This section is terrible, IMO, if you're trying to do anything but divorce with acrimony. Calling her a bad example. Telling her she won't try. Dave---you should know better. I hope you didn't send it.<P>If you did, you need to follow up with an apology. And if it makes you feel better, I did more than my share of lovebusting in Plan B---and Steve beat me up for it, too.<P>With your best interests in mind...<P>K<BR> ********************<BR>

K - thanks, no I didn't send it.<P>I understand your points perfectly. I guess I have to fink on WhoDat - he suggested the gist of that section you cite. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to discuss this with Steve. I'll propose another re-write.<P>WhoDat, you OutDare?<P>WAT

WAT,<BR>You give so much of yourself, and help so many here. You are truly appreciated. I can only say that WS needs to come to that realization. I can only give you support to make your Plan B work, and that your W will return soon to mend your marriage. You are a strong person to be able to do this. We can only give great advice when we've had the experience, and my experience is nil when it comes to Plan B. I am like you, I'm the BS, trying to make my marriage work.<P>You are in my prayers. after shock

Dave,<P>Boy that K, right on the money again.... You know we (those of us with quick wit) can sometimes be our worse enemy if we were let loose out there without this board..... <P>So you vented that retalitory retort to your W here. Then had a chance to rethink it in a more logical, caring approach and not send it. Good. There is still hope for you. Let this sink into your W a bit. She sounds like she is a bit stubborn person. Does come around but only after she puts up a major front or battle. What is there reason for this? Not sure. But my H sure does this. Now he knows it and sees it as his issue not mine. Took a long time though to get him to cough up to it. <P>Hang in there buddy, I think she is getting the picture if you stick to plan B (look who's talking!). More rough weather coming up, better batter down for a bumpy ride. Those swells may make you seasick but toss the crap off the side of the boat and hang on. IMHO (for what it is worth), after she realizes that all her efforts to turn you upside down or bring you down, fails, she will give up. You can't run on adrenaline and anger forever. <P>You are doing better than me. I feel like I got bit by the LB bug. So maybe I am not the best one to advise you right now. Just know that I care and trying to support you from this side. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Well don't know if my input is desireable or not (although I don't harbor any ill feelings or anything). I do agree with K (glad he said it), and as ws, (and having read many more of your posts since our last uh...... interaction), you still feel controlling to me, and angry, and determined to "make" your wife comply in any way you can. I don't know your wife, and maybe you are a "saint" and the acrimony fully justified, but it still feels like you and she are in a major power struggle. For the record, you sound like a decent guy, and possibly could work it out with wife, but because of all the (aggressive) stuff between your words, she doesn't believe you (IMO).

WAT,<P>She is losing it. All that bravado, all that cold heartedness--I do not see it as her being serious about being completely done with M (unlike others). I see this as a front, a stubborn last stand to protect the fantasy life of the A. How dare you intrude reality into this little setup? Get ready for what you will say to her when it all comes crashing down around her--how you react will set the tone for recovery.<P>I hope I am right, but good luck either way.<P>JB

Dave,<P>Just so ya know, I do agree with K. You started out great with the rewrite, and slid into the *cheap shot* mode at the end. I totally understand it, but it doesn't fit with what you have learned. It is honest, and a great way to vent, but...gonna be a big LB, if you are still trying to Plan A.<P>I do like the approach of telling her the marriage could be better than ever, and the squandering bit is headed in the right direction, just too attacking.<P>Maybe telling her that you hate the thought of losing everything you two have worked for and you hate giving up without ever knowing what your family could truly be with efforts by both of you. (Something to that effect anyway...you can word it better, I am sure.) I do agree that the things she says and does sound like *coaching* or *manipulating* from the OM. I think that she is trying to *prove* herself by living up to his expectations/demands, and so she has to follow his directives on how to *handle* you. Hang in there, my friend. Be strong for you and your son!! The light of dawn may shine on this whole thing sooner than you think if OM begins his own LB campaign.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

I 100% agree with K, and I think you know that already, eh, Dave?<P>The question is: What are you going to do now?