My W emailed me today and said she wanted to talk, so we did. I won't go into all the details, but there were LB's on both sides.<P>Most of talk centered around D. She wants it and I don't. I told her that since she wants D, isn't willing to work on marriage and is still involved with OM, she should think about leaving. She continues to deny involvement with OM and will not leave w/o our daughter. We talked about OM and the tape recorder (see previous threads for details). She still claims she knew I was taping her and said what she did to hurt me. I asked her why she didn't look for recorder if she suspected I was taping her. She said she looked through several rooms but couldn't find it. It was in one of the rooms she claims she looked, how could she not find it? Wouldn't be that hard to find, look for a phone and a jack.<P>Anyway, I was able to get some things off my chest:<P>1. told her I believed she was still involved with OM (I know for a fact she is)<P>2. told in spite of how much that hurts me, I love her and still want to work on our marriage<P>3. told her I may fight her for custody of our daughter<P>4. told her I know more about her involvement with OM than what I heard on recorder <P>5. told her that I don't believe we've done everything we can to save our marriage, but if she wants a D, before we do anything else, she'll have to file<BR> <BR>I caught her more lies. She said she's only talked to OM a couple of times in the last few months (but I know otherwise). I told her that I'm not ready to give up everything that matters to me (our marriage, our daughter our house). She said she doesn't want to put our daughter through a custody battle. She said she won't file for a D and we can continue to live like we are before she'll put our daughter through that. That really confused me. My chances of winning a custody battle are slim, we both know that, but I love my little girl dearly and can't just give her up without trying. I don't want full custody, I just want her to live with me. A pipedream, I know. Our daughter is only 3, how will she be affected by a custody battle? She won't even be involved. I think getting divorced will have alot more of an affect on her. Skewed logic by my W in my opinion. I think she's worried about what else I know about her and OM. <P>Regardless, it felt good to get some things off my chest and stand my ground. I think she's finally realizing this isn't going to be as easy as she thought. If she wants a D, she'll have to do the work. As far as our daughter goes, I believe the best thing for her would be for my W and I to find a way to keep our marriage together. But if that's not what my W wants, than don't I have every right to want my daughter to be with me? She means the world to me and I love her with all my heart. I'm fighting to save my marriage for her as much as I am for me.<P>It appears my W is still very much in the "fog". She wants it all, but only if it's easy. She wants a D, but won't file. Confusing, but I guess that's the "fog".<P>sad dad<BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 02, 2001).]

SD:<P>Why do you say your wife will get your daughter? T'aint necessarily so, unless their are extenuating circumstances. If you demonstrate your fitness as a parent, and that your daughter will be exposed to conditions not healthy for her development, you can gain custody.<P>Talk to a lawyer if you haven't already. My lawyer made sure the divorce proceedings took place before a very family-oriented and conservative judge (a woman, by the way), who was not at all sympathetic about a mother who would walk out on her children.<P>I know this is jumping ahead, as Plan A/Plan B may make that course unnecessary. But it pays to plan for as many contingencies as you can.<P>[ps: Had to add this, as I forgot to address it in my original posting: drop the love busters! Easier said than done sometime (no one knows how to push buttons like a spouse, right?). But take that deep breath, try to keep it in an "I" context: commit to honesty, but exercise the rules of protection and care as well.]<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited August 02, 2001).]

Hi saddad,<P>There is a poster on the d/d board that has custody of his 4 year old daughter. He is from Texas and his user is father of 1 husband of 0. He was able to get custody of his daughter. You could post to him and others who have custody of their children. <P>I would like to let you know that you don't have to put too much weight on what your W is saying vs doing. Pay more attention to the actions than the words. Those words sound confusing. I want a D but want you H to do it. Hm..... <P>So for now, let her say whatever, just don't put your life in her hands for now. Don't make any life altering decisions on her foggy mood swings. <P>Pay attention to how she interacts with those close to you and with your family and friends. Ws's babble a lot especially in the beginning. That is why it is soo hard to understand. <P>Hope some of this info helps. <P>L.<BR>

STL,<P>I have an appointment with a lawyer next week and hopefully I'll get some questions answered. In Illinois, the courts push for joint custody and let the parents work out the living/visitation issues. You are right. Hopefully a good plan A/plan B will make this unnecessary. As far as the LB's, I've done a pretty good job with those so far, but I had to get some things off my chest and make it clear where I stand. I didn't want to LB, but somtimes being honest makes it unavoidable. I do think I shook things up a bit.<P>Orchid,<P>I get your point too. I've got to focus on what she's doing, not what she says. She's saying one thing but doing (or not doing) another. Her logic is confusing. She'll divorce me if I don't fight for custody, but won't divorce me if I do. What? She's willing to put our daughter through a D but not a custody battle. Which is the lesser of two evils? <P>For now I'll just continue with plan A, seek legal advice just in case, keep my mouth shut and see how it plays out. Hopefully OM will get impatient. I'd be more discouraged if my W were making sense and OM was out of the picture.<P>sad dad <BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 02, 2001).]

Hi sad dad-I know from personal experience that when your spouse is still in the fog and you start a discussion about divorce the only way the the conversation is going to go from there is BAD!!! My H used to call me and start mentioning he wanted a D- he knew I didnt and it would get me all upset. A lawyer friend from church told me to NOT discuss D with him on the phone since I dont want one. So after that when he brought it up I'd say , " You know God hates divorce and it would harm our children very badly so I wont discuss that with you." This way it forced him to stop pushing my buttons. OW had been pressuring him to divorce me and so thats part of the reason he kept bringing it up.Though at the time he claimed it was because it was what he wanted, our marriage was hopeless according to him etc. etc.! He didnt even make any effort to try to make things better between us. OW knew it caused fights between us. Ask your lawyer about filing for a legal separation. If you do so surprise her with it. Dont let her know youre filing for it. Believe me that might be the swift kick she needs to get off the fence and into some fresh air. A separation agreement is similar to the divorce arrangements financially and it would make her really see how a D would be - yet it can be cancelled easily if you reconcile. Think about it . You shouldnt let her put you on HOLD indefinitely. You have feelings too- not just her. lifeismessy

lim,<P>My W has initiated several of these "we need to talk" talks over the past few months and nothing ever gets accomplished. I knew that would be the case again, but I wanted to use the opportunity to let het know a) I know A is still going on and b) I may fight for custody. As far as the D issue, my feelings on that have not changed. She knows that and any move in that direction is up to her. As far as some other things we discussed, I did let her push my buttons. I've got to work harder not to let that happen.<P>As far as a legal separation, I believe in Illinois you need to living apart before it can be granted. I ask a lawyer for specifics. For the time being, I'll sit tight, continue loving my daughter and my W, and see if the "fog" begins to lift.<P>sad dad <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 02, 2001).]

sad - sorry I haven't been able to stay up with you. You know why.<P>Back to your other post - are you on anti-depressants? If not please see a doc.<P>She's following the same script my wife used, although my wife was determined to separate and wanted it so bad that she left. Get your lawyer's advice, but DON'T LEAVE.<P>WAT

WAT,<P>I've been following your recent posts and my heart is with you my friend. I don't know what keeps you going.<P>As far as my previous post, I'm doing much better. A bad couple of days but my emotions have leveled off. Talking to my W yesterday helped. The lying, denial and general irrational logic indicates how messed up she still is. I can't go into everything she said, but alot of "alien" rambling. I think she's starting to realize that getting a D isn't as simple as filling out some paperwork and deciding who gets the coffee pot and who gets the toaster.<P>sad dad

sad - well stated. I, too, find a strange comfort when I confirm that the moose brain worms are still thriving.<P>WAT

Well I spoke to a lawyer today. It was informative. A legal separation is not a viable option. We would have to be living apart for it to make sense, and it basically just protect me financially. There are alot of ways my lawyer can delay things, without having to contest grounds for D. Illinois courts push for joint custody and let the parents work out the details. If they can't, a mediator gets involved. <P>Not alot of options, so I will just wait this out and see what unfolds.<P>sad dad<P><BR>

sad dad- I cant believe how similar our spouses were in the fog. My H used to use those exact words with me, " we need to talk" then he would launch into how he didnt have feelings for me anymore, our marriage is hopeless, we should divorce so as not to be in a loveless marriage etc etc! I used to cringe at the very mention of the words 'we need to talk' when I saw those words in your post it almost gave me the chills! You could just wait her out- the one good thing about fog is it DOES eventually dissipate. Its just a matter of how long you can stand to be in it personally. take care- lifeismessy

lim,<P>I know what you mean about cringing when I hear those words. Every conversation is the same, she wants a D, I tell her I don't, she does nothing and we repeat the cycle every couple of weeks. Yesterday was the fourth or fifth time we've had basically the same conversation. It gets old.<P>I really have two choices. I could leave or file myself, neither of which I'm ready to do, or I can wait it out and see if the "fog" lifts. I choose the latter. As difficult as it is at times, at least I get to be with my daughter everyday. I think yesterday was good for me. I made a stand a stuck to it. I think it gave my W a dose of reality. I'm not going to roll over and let her walk all over me. If she wants a D, she'll have to do all the work and assume some risk. Time will tell if she's prepared to do that. My W may think she's in for a battle, but it doesn't need to be that way. I want what's best for all of us, especially our daughter. I just don't believe a D is what's best. Maybe I'm naive and maybe I'm fooling myself, but I love my W and I love my daughter and I truly believe we can be a happy family again. I won't give up until I stop believing that.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 02, 2001).]

One thing I forgot to add about my talk with my W a couple of nights ago. My W threatened to sue me for "invasion of privacy" because of the tape recorder if I faught her on custody. I told her to do what she had to do. I told her I might file for D on the grounds of infidelity. She said the things I heard on the recorder are inadmissible. I said I knew that, but I've got other info. She doesn't know what this info is, but I think it spooked her. I know this is a big LB, but I got caught up in the moment. Next time she wants to have one of those "we need to talk" talks, I'll just keep my mouth shut and listen. I can't let her push my buttons.<P>sad dad <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 03, 2001).]

<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: LonelyAtNight ]</p>

LAN, <P>Except for the other night, I've been very good about LB'ing. I just needed to get some things off my chest. My W asked me why I thought anything will change between us. I told her it won't as long as she's still involved with OM. That was the first time I brought up OM or A in 3 months. I never revealed how I knew what I knew. She found out about tape recorder by snooping in my email (I inadvertantly forget to delete a few). I will not tell her anything else that I know because it doesn't make a difference and I want to keep her guessing. We both know what's going on. She won't admit to anything until she's ready to work on our marriage. That may never happen and even if it does she still may not admit it. Right now, I'll just wait and see if she files for D. She's had 3 months to do it and hasn't. Why not??? <P>I really haven't been pursuing her, I've pretty much left her alone to do what she wants. I never question where she's going or with whom or when she'll be back, but she usually let's me know. I've made it clear she's free to do whatever she wants (including filing for D). <P>So for now, I'll be friendly, continue plan A'ing, keep my mouth shut when I need to and try to have some fun.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 03, 2001).]

My W didn't go to work yesterday. Our daughter was sick, but she was planning on calling in sick anyway. I didn't ask her why, but she seemed to be in a bad mood when she got home from work Thursday. Maybe our discussion the other night shook her up a little. It felt good to stand up for what's important to me. <P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 04, 2001).]