I admit I have not read everything in your recent posts and I wanted to comment about your "Plan B" in earlier posts but wasn't sure if I should. IMHO Plan B is not ment for divorcing "parents" and certainly not when a custody battle could break out. I realize you don't know my entire history but my ex and I went through a long custody battle. I also was the one that basically ended our marriage because of MY affair. The thing is, in most court rooms they really don't care and certainly her lawyer doesn't care how many affairs she had. In reality their opinions are that you should just "get over it". Anything you do or say could be construed as hostile or bitter because of her affair. I can tell you from my experience that if that letter from her attorney was presented to a Judge it would NOT score points for you. The Plan B where you are asking for communication only through non-verbal ways is the biggest killer, especially if your trying to do the joint parenting thing. Joint parenting is more difficult then two parents trying to parent in the same house and in A LOT of ways you need to communicate almost perfectly for it to work. Heck, if you can communicate THAT well why divorce? At least in my State, if your not communicating extremely well they absolutely WILL NOT allow you to have joint custody. Since you were the one that made the request to not talk it's a very real possibility that YOU'D be the one without custody. Yes, she moved out and that would be the point against her.....her affair WOULD NOT. I also realize that these boards are filled with very good advice and very intelligent people but I have to believe that in divorce/affairs/and custody battles experience helps with the advice. Best of luck to you. Oh yes,,,,,,,attorney's are fantastic writers. Mine had to be stopped many times or he'd go on and on about my ex, blowing many things out of proportion. The scene was set by your wife, the attorney wrote the script.

Hi Bonnie,<P>I do not have childen so of course there were none to worry about in my D.<P>All that you have offered WAT sounds very valid and of great concern, but what would you recommend he do? Stop his Plan B, or modify it? I'm confused?<P>Jo

Bonnie - thanks for the insight.<P>Is the court so shallow as to stop at the facts on the surface? I mean, it seems that ending verbal conversation for the reasons I did and simply doing it out of spite are two different things. I have a reasoned, professionally backed approach - all in an effort to preserve the family unit. Divorce doesn't do that.<P>I can show lots of attempts at real communication with my wife that she turned down. Wouldn't the declination of family counseling on my wife's part actually be a lot worse than my last ditch, Plan B strategy of ending direct communication? Would this be judge dependent?<P>WAT

I have to run to a meeting but I'll try to respond in a couple of hours or tomorrow. WAT....what I'm trying to tell you is that I was the cheater and the Judge took NO sympathy for my ex all because of how he reacted to my affair and towards his kids. They don't care what happened but what is happening now. Right NOW your not cooperating and your support is not caught up. I'm sure it's a very good reason but all they see is that it isn't. I'll write more later because I see you doing a lot of what my ex did and if it were not actually me defending him the Judge would have hung him out to dry.

WAT<P>My $0.02 for whatever it is worth:<P>I think BonnieSept makes a good point. <P>I read your letter in your other post and I read the reply you crafted. <P>While I realize this is emotional and you still would like to reconcile w/your W, I think you are almost at a stage where you need to be on a two-track approach to protect Dave and his interests. You can Plan B your wife but I agree w/Bonnie Sept that the courts will take a different look at that than you and those of us here at MB who understand what you are trying to do.<P>In my state, when my first W and I were divorced, it really didn't matter who had done what to whom or how often if it was not a matter of law. Granted we had no kids so there was no custody battle but I think the courts would come down on the side of law in nearly all cases.<P>I guess what i am saying is that as much as you would like to respond in kind to your W's letter, in the long run you need to take the high road here to protect yourself, your son and your custody rights. Consult w/your attorney before making any rash moves. <P>With your wife at the point where she is ( I believe she can file in a couple of weeks, right?) you may have to modify your plan B to include communication regarding your son and custody etc. This would not be done for her, but for your protection and to maintain your rights.<P>Anyway--my $0.02--worth what you paid for it.<P>In any case keep your chin up...I have followed your story since I came to the board and you have executed a very well thought out and reasoned Plan A and now Plan B...<P>It's unfortunate your W doesn't/won't see what the rest of us have.<P>Take Care <P>E

The sad thing about divorce court is that they don't have time to look over all of the evidence. In most cases they do not even read all of the documentation that they receive ahead of time. The courts are so full that they just don't have time. It all boils down on how the attorney's present their cases in the court room. And, if it turns out to be a custody battle the social worker that takes on your case makes the ultimate decision in regards to custody. What he or she says goes in almost all cases. A Judge will not take the time to hear about your Plan A/B and doesn't care. They don't care who loves who or who is sleeping with who and they don't care how bad your heart was broken. They make decisions that will impact the rest of your life and they try to do what is best for the child(ren). In just reading the letter your wife's attorney wrote a Judge will say "Hum, he's still so angry about the affair that he refuses to talk to the childs mother. How can they co-parent together with this type of attitude. And oh my, he is bad mouthing the mother in front of the child. Turning the child against the other parent can sometimes be the sole reason that custody is reversed. A dirty house or clean clothes doesn't make or break a good parent but it can tilt the scale. The two of you share custody right now. It's NOT like you have sole physical custody because that would be better for you. You then could offer up that you have been the parent with the most responsibility. But, your child is shared and that is still not looked upon as being a good thing in the eye's of the court. Most Judges would like to see one parent have sole physical custody unless the two can prove that they indeed co-parent wonderfully together. Just from the little I've read you don't co-parent well together at all. I'm not picking on you. I think your doing a fantastic job parenting your son, I'm just trying to point out what can happen in court. It doesn't matter if your wife is making some of that up if the Judge believes her. For me, we did the long custody battle thing which included home visits and the kids alone with the social worker. My daughter was 4 at the time and I remember her telling the social worker that her dad let his two step boys (his girlfriends son's who lives with him) give her a bath before. Well you should have seen my ex's face. He NEVER did that but at 4 they say all kinds of stuff. She was asked how mommy punishes her and she said "Oh, she sends me to bed without dinner". Geez, I have NEVER done that. When questioned later she said she couldn't think of an answer so she made one up. But you know what? Those statements were in the social workers report and that is all the Judge cared about. Who knows? Maybe you'll never go through a custody battle because you and your wife will settle on joint custody. But, you need to prepare that she'd ready to file and it's really a battle between the attorney's. Again, NOT communicating with the other parent verbally can destroy custody chances. Bad mouthing the other parent can destroy custody cases. Bringing up what they did "bad" can make you look bitter and revengeful even if your not or if it's rightfully so. The poor me's don't cut it in court. I remember ex standing up before the Judge at our Pre-hearing asking questions regarding the kids when my ex said "But she is the one that had the affair. She should be removed from the house and the kids for that!" The Judge then said "This is a no-fault case and just because she had an affair does not make her a bad mother. My fear with you remaining in the home is that you would use the kids to pay her back for what she did. In everything I have heard she has always been the primary care giver, she's always been a very involved parent and her affair did not interfer with her ability to parent those children". I won the pre-trial. Now because I told you that I do not want people jumping down my throat that it should have been me that lost custody because of my affair because there is a lot more to do with it then just that. I just wanted to point out to you that you need to becareful of what you use to fight with and how you pick your battles. Divorce is nasty and it becomes all about money. You need to protect yourself and your son and if it means that you need to temporarily put your mourning for your wife aside then that might be what you need to do. The decisions once made in court are hard to change. Good luck

Thanks, Bonnie - I hear you.<P>As an example, should I immediately pay up support - even a few months in advance, even though on a monthy basis, all things considered, she owes me? Keep in mind she has not paid me for her monthly childcare expenses.<P>In my mind, I'm way ahead because I can show impecable records of our son's expenses that I have paid - childcare, school and counseling, taxes. <P>I fully understand the absence of worth of infidelity to the court. In my jurisdiction, at least it's a misdemeanor.<P>My fault may be underestimating the wrath and motivation of my wife. It still boggles my mind that it could come to this. How can she look at herself after authorizing that letter from her attorney? Bizarre. I keep wondering if I'm the one that's nuts.<P>WAT<P>WAT

Dave,<P>I also agree that Bonnie is giving you sound advice. The letter from your W's attorney definitely sounded like she wanted to "establish" some "facts" legally. <P>In my opinion, and you should definitely counsel with your attorney, you should immediately pay her everything you owe her and remain current at all times. By doing so, you now put HER as the one in arrears for expenses she owes you. Also, you may want to keep hard copies of the dated invoices you are giving her, as well as an accounts receivable record to establish her own timeliness or lack thereof, of payments.<P>The most important thing you need to remember is this - you can't control your W and you can't control whether or not she returns to the marriage. That is a separate issue from the co-parenting. You CAN control how you contribute to the co-parenting process. I like Elad's suggestion - Plan B your W for that relationship, but Plan A for your son's sake. Think about all of this before you do anything, please.<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Thanks, Desi - I understand perfectly and it's easy to do. Most of the time, I let the engineer in me make the decisions instead of the legally correct logic.<P>I guess the way to approach these financial matters is to consider each issue as a separate account. Child support does not "talk" to child care. School expense does not "talk" to taxes.<P>WAT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>her affair did not interfer with her ability to parent those children"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If judges really believe that, the legal system is even more screwed up than it is reputed to be. Affairs ALWAYS interfere with parenting - the time and emotional energy devoted to the affair partner takes away from time and emotional energy devoted to the children.

Yep, that's it WAT, treat them as seperate symptoms or entities. Tackle them one at a time.<P>Jo<BR>

Thanks, Jo - lets go sailing to get away from this cess pool.<P>Nellie - couldn't agree more. And my efforts to preserve the family unit will probably go for naught.<P>WAT

I am friggin ready ... name a time/place and I am SO THERE! <P>All kidding aside Dave, you really are doing a good job, try to stay logical and fair about all of this because one day you'll look back on it and will have no regrets. It'll feel freeing and you'll be proud of yourself.<P>Jo<P>

WOW! Bonnie.....Am I hearing you right?<P>You had an affair.....<P>Kicked XH's butt in court....(while keeping your lawyer nice & polite, of course, AND even "defended" XH before the judge!)<P>Married OM....and in spite of the dismal odds....are going to live happily ever after!<P>And on top of all that......you still find the time to comfort the poor souls on Marriage Builders!!!<P>You are an AMAZING woman!<P>Best Wishes,<BR>Xman<P>PS: Could you....errr...pick a few LOTTO numbers for me? Thanks!

I've had the same concerns about Plan B. If I were in Plan B I would let H know what it would be like to be divorced and I would not go rescue him every time he could not pick up the kids when he was supposed to. I've been in Plan A for 2 months and have had to pick the kids up from daycare because he had to work late. I would not want to do that in Plan B, but I'm afraid a judge would look at things like that and it would hurt me in the long run. Tough decision!<P>HEck

WAT, you've received good advice... and I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Bonnie, re: what the courts will do or say. My lawyer, when I first met with him a year and a half ago, told me based on his experience (30yrs) if I wanted to "get" anything fair... or move closer to home and support or get custody, I should do it then. (in the beginning).<P>My lawyer is also pro marraige and supported me in my efforts to save mine, and also told me that he understood that I wouldn't be able to do anything unless I was ready...<P>He knew I was not... and when the other shoe fell... and my H and his lawyer responded the way they did, he did not tell me "I told you so.".. but in hindsight he was right. At this point, I do regret not moving when my H did not care one bit what me and the kids did... but I was not ready.<P>I have been left with the option of declaring an all out war... in which I bring in the kid's counselor, request a psych eval.. and all sorts of other evidence re: the ACTUAL events as the kids and I lived them... <P>I have the option to have a third lawyer to represent the kids.... etc. etc. BUT....<P>It really stinks to do that. I know I can't do that. In the end I think I would totally lose myself.....<P>And the kids would get very hurt. I won't do that to them...They've been hurt far too much already.<P>I decided that someone had to be the adult... and it was going to be me... even if I have to accept the fact that I'll never have my say. I'm just so sick of defending myself at this point.<P>I cannot do a thing about his denial or his rationalizations. I keep reminding myself that whoever he is at this point, the kids want to have a relationship with him. <P>The biggest risk, and what seems to usually happen, is that whatever we do or say it somehow seems to come out as "us" being betrayed and then feeling vindictive. <P>For me the affair and even the baby are not the issues. Seems that those issues are just cliches. Just read the papers or watch the news. My issues have been how the kids and I have been treated as human beings... and I can't even do a thing about that.<P>That's kind of how my hybrid form of plan B came into effect. I leave the connection re: the kids very viable...but I just try to set the boundaries for myself.<P>Most people here that are living this with me (friends and colleagues) see the kids and I as my H's lifeline to reality. But he continues to live in a fantasy world...<P>It isn't the best situation, because I know my H gets many needs met by me. I just try to keep distancing myself..taking care of myself...growing ... creating a different life for me. He balks at that too...but that is one thing he can't bully me about. <P>I do know this though, if it isn't safe to "land"...I don't think the WS will. I guess that's where plan A is essential. <P>But when there are kids involved and they want to be involved with them, even if it is NOT how we think it should be, or the way it was before this... a "perfect" plan B... is not only bad for the kids, but it is the biggest LB you will find.

Get those financial records in order ASAP. Now if you are the one paying for all the childcare and childsupport, what do you owe her? <P>I have our bills itemized every month (not in a controlling way of course ). This allows me to show H at a glance where our money is going. It is possible that someone tried to plant ideas in H's head that I was stashing money away. Right, in debt up to my ears (thanks to H) and I can stash money? Sure go find where I buried it and he can have it. The point is that you should have the facts speak for you. So get them in order. Is it possible to get letters of 'commendation', personal references etc.? Will it help? <P>Just more thoughts. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Dave:<P>A short reiteration of what I said in your other post (in case you check here first: maintain Plan B for the short term. Let your lawyer talk to her lawyer via correspondence. Your letter can serve as a background informational piece.<P>Discuss legal strategy with your attorney. Get him up to speed on Marriage Builders: what it means to you, to the marriage and to your son, etc. Let him plot the legal strategy accordingly. That's what you are paying him for. As previously mentioned, I had good success in Maryland (in a conservative county) because my lawyer and I discussed strategy long before we got to the nitty-gritty of the legal war that will soon ensue in your case.<P>Keep the faith, keep up the Plan B ... at least until your attorney tells you to can it for legal reasons.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hi BonnieSept,<P>Just a vent....no offense intended.....<P>Just want to apologize for my sarcastic post up above.....I know you are a wonderful gal and mom.......BUT you just strike a nerve with me that I thought was loooong gone.....I'm 49 now and I thought I was OVER it.....but when I read what you said (in an old post) "The kids don't care which parent had an affair" HUH! SAY WHAT? Are you delusional?! My sister and I cared VERY much that our mother blew our childhoods out of the water! I was 10 and sis was 8 when mom found her "soulmate".....it was 1962....and dad was defineatly IRATE.....probly LBed all over the place.....we were SCARED!...we heard em yelling...I'm sure he was at least partly to blame for the decline of their marriage. Our mom also told us he didn't want to see us....that his girlfriend wouldn't allow it.....BULLPUCKY! He just couldn't stand the sight of her!(mom) He loved us VERY much and let us know through the grandparents....he even rented a PO box (at the post office next to the nearby grocery store (no e-mail in them days) and had gramma slip us the key...and he wrote us regularly....the parallels are amazing between your story and our SO long ago one. Our dad wound up living about 5 miles away......AND mom never suspected a thing when sis and I asked for "English Racer" bikes for Xmas that year.......(no 10 speeds back then!)<P>Yup.....we were pedaling over to dad's on the sly.....we, in a sense, were forced to have an "affair" with our father! Sound strange? Well, it was!.....we were forced to lie and sneak around JUST like "soulmates" have to! Just to see him....Got caught a few times too.....lied our way out of it....got good at lying too, just like mom....Got my driver's license July 16, 1968.....it got a LOT easier after that...but me and sis coulda gave Lance Armstrong a run for his money in the early 60's! We used to tell mom we were going to the "library" She really was glad we liked to "read" so much! <P>Mom married OM....and, like you, was SURE we would bond with the [censored] too......THAT'S LAUGHABLE! I used to lay in bed dreaming of the day I would be big enough to rip his head off and $hit down his throat! No need, as it turned out.....he found another "soulmate" about 6 years later...and dumped mom....Dad married his "crazy girlfriend" (unlike your X), who just happened to be the finest woman I've ever met...I can STILL hear my mom disparaging that wonderful woman!....it hurts me to my core to say that, step-mom was a FAR better woman than my mom......and her kids(my step-sibs) are my best friends too....to this day.<P>Incidently, my dad was a BRILLIANT man, who got in on the ground floor of the computer revolution.....(too busy? and neglecting EN's??) and died a VERY, VERY rich man....which burned mom's shorts to no end...BUT, ya know what? He supported her for 30+ years after her "soulmate" split.....VOLUNTARILY! He never saw her again (face to face) after the divorce.....and she never acknowledged it...never said thanks...but EVERY month her checking account was replenished....I asked him once why?....sis and I would have supported her...after all, she's our mom, warts and all....(we thought she took OM to the cleaners...turns out he didn't have a pot OR a window!) just a line of **** to get stupid woman's drawers off. Dad said.....Cus she's your mom..... He was a PRINCE among men....<P>OK....rant is over, LOL Please Bonnie, forgive me.....My emotions ran AMOK.....not at YOU....well, maybe, SORRY!<BR>...and it IS highly unlikely your young uns are biking over to their dad's......but if you think it is outside the realm of possibility.....think again....CUS IT AIN'T!<P>Dave.....my heart heart hurts reading your saga.....hang in there, big guy.....I'll pray fer ya...and we gotta go fishin sometime...<P>Love,<BR>Xman (Bill)<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Xman (edited August 04, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Xman (edited August 05, 2001).]

XMAN/Bill,<P>That is one of the saddest things I have ever read here. I am sitting here fighting back tears.<P>Of course kids do care who destroyed their family and their lives. One of my daughters said that the kids will blame someone - either the mother, the father, or sadly, themselves.