Though I haven't been posting on here all that long, I feel tremendous strength from the words of encouragement that have come my way.<BR>I am now working through the next steps in rebuilding and I am again in need of some advice.<BR>Let me catch you up...<BR>My wife(BS)returned from our separation to get her things and to return with the intention of filing for D. While in town, she had an A with a friend and co-worker. She had been talking with him on the phone and confiding, creating EA for a month. Happened on a Friday, she confessed to me, reluctantly on a Monday. Said she felt because of all this she wanted to work on the marriage. During the course of that week, we spent time together, no sex, just together, she was comforting me for my pain. We had a long talk one afternoon about our pasts and I felt so good about our future, like we are working on a friendship first and would develop more later. She was even telling me she loved me.<BR>The next day, looking at our phone bill, she found phone numbers to OW that reflected my contact even after the A had ended and I had told wife I broke contact. Not unusual to me, I was lying then, but wasn't trying to hide the past. This caused all sorts of drama, including her calling OW and calling OM. She has promised her contact with him is over. She still has very strong feelings for him, but knows its wrong. Meantime she has NO FEELINGS for me. Only pain, and she doesn't believe she can ever trust me again. Despite my lifechange and new direction...which it appears she is unwilling to even try.<P>We have been to counseling and I want to continue, she says she is frustrated because our counselor and pastor both are saying we need to try and live together, no sex, just platonic, as roommates. She is still unwilling to try this. <BR>It seems her emotions and feelings change from day to day, minute to minute. She is living in our condo, I am staying with assistant pastor of our church. The only consistency in all of this seem to be her anger, bitterness, and her saying she doesn't love me. I am confessing my love to her, I will never file for divorce, I know the changes in me are forever. <BR>How do I proceed from here? I am so ready to work on our marriage. I am listening to her and listening to Godly counsel and it is consistent, but she's not willing. And in the middle of all this, I am hurting so badly because of her betrayal to me. Even though she says its not the same thing that I did to her, it still hurts so bad!<BR>HELP!!<BR>

Hi, sorry you're having to go through what you're going through. Sorry, I'm not sure about how to help, other than maybe give her some time and space? Have you read Surviving An Affair? There is lots of good stuff in there about how to start recovery. I just wanted to reply, sorry I'm not much help, but do know your pain.

I am bumping this up so you will get more responses. <P>I know you are frustrated and hurting.... huggggsssss <P>I have just a couple of thoughts, and a question or two.<P>BOth of your A's have injured your marriage considerably. THere's still hope for you OF COURSE, but just keep that in mind, and that it will take some time and careful Plan A'ing on your part. Also, when your W found evidence that you were still in contact with OW, it's like finding out the A occurred for the first time, and some of the progress you had made might have been erased.<P>Plan A is my first suggestion. You writing a no-contact letter and sharing it with your W is my next suggestion. And you should encourage your W to do the same thing. Tell your W you love her and want to repair things (I'm sure you have, but be careful not assume she knows - be sure to tel her) It's also possible that if she insists on moving out, you may have to let her go. THat doesn't mean that it's over. BUt there's a lot of healing that needs to occur.<P>1. Can you give us a time-table as to when these things occured? Your A, her A, her leaving , her coming back, the discovery of your continued contact, etc.<BR>2. Have you been studying the principles on the MB web-site, reading His Needs Her Needs, and Surviving an Affair? (just trying to find out where you are so we can help you ) <BR>3. And have you started implementing Plan A?<P>I am so sorry for your pain, but you are in the right place for help and doing the right thing by posting.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

MH:<P>First, since she and you are both willing to work on salvaging your marriage, that is a positive first step in the right direction.<P>I would highly recommend you both read <I>Surviving an Affair</I> and <I>His Needs, Her Needs</I>, as well as the material on this site. Do it together, if at all possible.<P>Secondly, try a counseling session with Jennifer or Steve (the Counseling link at the top of the page will get that rolling). I think saving a marriage is worth the investment here.<P>Third, to address the sexual/feelings state of your wife (and perhaps even you). You have both ravaged each other emotionally. This takes time to heal. In MB terms, you both have seriously depleted the love units you have in your love banks. Without replenishing them, she (and/or you) will continue to feel the same way toward you.<P>Implementing recovery means building those love units back up. It is about you fulfilling her emotional needs and she working on fulfilling yours. The framework that surrounds the emotional needs are the rules of honesty, care, protection and time.<P>Honesty is the key. It is the bedrock upon which all else is built. Both of you will hopefully be working very hard to that end. Honesty is codependent on having a safe place to be honest (rule of protection) and one that will fall on receptive ears (rule of care).<P>Rome wasn't built in a day: neither will the rebuilding of your marriage. But this forum, Dr. Harley's works, and the materials on this site can help you take those first teetering steps on the road to recovery. But you must both be on the same road, you both must be contributing 100 percent to the recovery.<P>My thoughts and prayers with you and your wife,<BR>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Time frames...<BR>My affair was emotional starting the end of Nov. last year, became physical at the end of February...then not again until the last of May.<BR>Through June I had continued to communicate with OW though I felt it was clear that there was no future, she was aware that I wanted to work things out with my wife and wanted to save my Marriage.<BR>Contact has been over since end of June, nothing in July except for another letter emailed to clear up any confusion about my intentions (another story), and never again.<P>Her A, started in the middle of June. Just talking with OM as friends, but she says quickly started turning to emotional A. She contemplated a physical A, but says she just played with the idea. When she returned to town, she began the physical affair. That was about two weeks ago, it was short lived. <P>I have been reading Surviving An Affair, and His Needs Her Needs. The problem is, she says she doesn't love me, can't trust me, and doesn't want to trust me. She is afraid of being hurt again. She says, "What happens in Five years, when you go through another one of these crisis. How am I supposed to trust that you won't?", truthfully I can't say I blame her reaction. I just know how different things are for me, my outlook, my hope, the kind of man I want to become. She reads these posts, so I know that she is aware of my feelings. Your posts may also be helping her, so keep em' coming!<BR> <BR>

Hi all- this is MissingHer's wife (I'm both BS and WS)- Feeling guilty about lurking and I'm really trying to get through the tangle my life has become. Thanks to all for the responses (not just to my H). The support offered in this forum is really amazing. Maybe I could share in that too?<P>Hi H- You know how I like everything to be out in the open...<P>I've read all the MissingHer postings- the problem is, there are some essential elements of the story missing- so far. These details play a large part in my continued distrust of my H.<P>My H and I met at a very early age and dated on<BR>and off until I graduated from college. Before we became engaged, he lied about a year-long relationship he had while we were supposedly dating "exclusively". He confessed only when I accidentally discovered that he was in another state visiting his other girlfriend and her parents. After much hurt and discussion that uncovered a huge network of lies he told over a year, we patched it up and I agreed to trust him again on the assumption that he would always be honest with me in the future. From that point on and to this day, I have continually stressed how honesty was more important to me than anything else. A little over a year later, we were married. At that time I believed I was the only one he had ever "gone all the way" with- he told me he hadn't with his other girlfriends. My husband and I have been married for less than three years. At the beginning of THIS year, he finally admitted to me that that he had, in fact had a fully sexual relationship with the girl mentioned above. I was not his first as I was led to believe when we married. My H was the first sex for me. (I'm used to be happy and naive, but I'm getting jaded quickly) <P>The reason this second betrayal is sooo painful is that much of what I'm hearing from him is a repeat of what I've heard before. He only confessed after another string of lies which I uncovered one by one until I said I was going to make certain fact-checking calls. So he waited until I got on a plane to spend time with my parents, knowing he had lied about a "business" trip, and then called 3 days later with most of the affair story... Then- after coming clean about his A, and sending his no-contact email, he was still contacting her on an almost daily basis and lying to me about it.<P>In hindsight, I realize that much of my depression during our marriage was due to not being able to get over the pre-marital lies and the nagging suspicion that I never got the full truth. Comments made to me during our marriage from "you should flirt with men more- it's healthy" to telling me his OW had a "good body" (she worked with him before she moved and before I knew of any improper attachment) contributed to low self esteem on my part. I don't blame him for all the LBing- I can tell you I did my share too- mostly feeling like I was reaching out for love that just wasn't there.- now I see that we both weren't meeting EN's. I can say that I was trying, but my efforts were misguided and clouded by hurt and mistrust. <P>None of this excuses the least part of what I did after learning of his A. While I was away, friendly phone calls with my OM quickly escalated to an emotional A. (Sorry for the recap- just trying to get all this out He's located where my H and I live, so when I came back to town to talk to H about dividing our things, OM and I met an things rapidly became a physical A. Immediately after I felt so guilty- I still have strong feelings for OM- but feelings don't justify what I did and certainly don't justify me pursuing anything further there. <P>I'm so sorry for the pain I caused H, and felt that maybe H and I should try to repair our broken marriage. I made this decision based on the assumption (wrong!) that H had been completely honest about his A and I was completely honest about mine. H and I had a long talk after I confessed my A and he never told me he had almost a month's worth of contact after he told me it was over with OW. Pain all over again!<P>Now I'm simply drained. Love Bank is completely in the RED. Still fighting feelings for OM, but haven't had any contact. I've been completely honest with ALL aspects to H because if nothing else- I know the pain involved and feel so bad for causing it. H may be sincere about loving me now, but I don't trust it for long and frankly, don't have energy left to meet his needs. I'm just sad, sorry and angry still. I'm so sad that as "christians" we've let this get so far out of hand. <P>That's the other half of this sorry tale. Tangled, yes? I don't feel love for H anymore- I feel traumatized and lonely. My question is - how do you restore trust when so much has been broken on every side? When the energy and will to make it work is all gone?

I just wanted to hop on here briefly and say hello! I'm glad you are with us Confusedheart!<P>Missingher, I can certainly see why the following quote from your post is true:<BR><B>The problem is, she says she doesn't love me, can't trust me, and doesn't want to trust me. She is afraid of being hurt again. She says, "What happens in Five years, when you go through another one of these crisis. How am I supposed to trust that you won't?", truthfully I can't say I blame her reaction.</B><P>CH, I kinda see where you are coming from. My H was my first and ONLY sex. I thought he had only had sex once before me. I found out recently after his A and we were trying to come clean about everything, that there were a few one-night stands with "friends" while we were dating - but not exclusive yet. It hurts and makes me feel dirty and unable to trust. But still, I know I can get past HIS past and his A, as long as he is willing to work on the marriage. Enough about me! <P>I still stick to my original diagnosis that your marriage is worth salvaging and can be rescued and lifted into something wonderful!!! Please take SeenTheLight's advice above into careful consideration. SeentheLight and zorweb are H and W that read and post here, and they have both been WS and BS (I think?? oops - don't be mad if I'm wrong on that one.. ). <P>It's so good to have you both posting. please stick around, and keep reading the stories here. You both have been through a lot, and ths will take a little time and patience.

Faith1,<P>Thanks for responding, it helps to talk to others.<P>Now I realize that even before his A was revealed, I was beginning to lose the strength of my feelings for him. I didn't lose faith in our marriage though. I felt like we were just going through a rough patch (little did I know!)<P>*Ironically, before his affair became full-fledged, H and I had purchased "His Needs, Her Needs-Building an Affair Proof Marriage" by Dr. Harley from a booth at church because my H pointed out the chapter about "His Need for an Attractive Spouse". He never read any of the other chapters until after- he confessed his affair.* That's just an aside, but it's a sore point fo me right now because I read the book and was trying to implement changes in my own life before all this came out. He tells me now that over several months he recognized those changes in me, but it didn't matter because he was to wrapped up in his A by then.<P>Oh boy, am I LBing? Can't seem to help it now... Sorry <P>My questions to you are.. How did your love come back for your WH? (Is that the case?) Did you ever stop loving him? I never thought I could feel this numb and devoid of feelings toward my H- I really loved him!

We had the book for a few yearstoo. I had read it - thought I was practicing it. he never read it until he first moved out and I gave it to him with some pages marked where I thought I had not met some of his needs. Then he read a little of it, then I think it made him feel worse - then I think he had his PA.<P>Anyway... I never lost my love for my H. I was angry, hurt, bitter, depressed, confused, all the range of emotions, but I always loved him and wanted him back. I knew I could forgive him for one affair (I don't count the ones when we were dating - we wren't committed and he was young), and I knew we could get help and learn how to love each other better. (we've been married 7 years). My crisis started 12 weeks ago, H left, had an A, came back to "reconcile", and then moved out 6 weeks ago to "figure things out". We are still separated, but I have been doing a solid PlanA, and I am beginngin to see him coming around (see my post "A bit of good news") . <P>Since your H's A goes back a few months, your love bank has suffered a bigger withdrawal than mine, probably.<P>I never stopped loving him. He hurt me deeply, but I realize that everyone makes mistakes, and heard early statistics of marriages that survive after affairs. The first book I read after my H left was a Gary Smalley book, "Winning your husband back before its too late" - it taught me to step out of my pit of self-pity and hopelessness, and begin working on myself, Then after my H confessed to the A, I read Dobson's, Love must be TOugh - taught me how to get control on my emotions - to understand that my H was wrong and it wasn't my fault, and to stand up for myself. Then I came here and learned about Plan A.<P>I prayed a LOT, and trusted that GOd could heal our marraige. The other important book I read and keep reading is Power of a Praying Wife, by Stormie Omartian. The books, and my faith in GOd is what kept me in love with my H, helped me to forgive him, and made me willing to implement some changes in my life.<P>You two are both here, both willing to learn, and nothing has happened in your marriage that can't be forgiven, repaired, and your marriage strengthened through all of this. I hope you will call and counsel with Steve or Jennifer, and read all the materials available.<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 03, 2001).]

Faith1,<P>Thank you so much for your honesty and encouragement. I'm so glad your Plan A is showing signs of progress ...<P>I've read "Power of a Praying Wife" too. )To be honest, continuing implement it is hard right now, but I'm trying. I'm determined not to let my own mistakes shake my walk with God and my belief in forgiveness. Scripturally, how else can I be forgiven?) So I'm really praying alot more lately- especially for help with forgiving/forgiveness issues.<P>We're actually seeing a very good christian counselor right now- He's saying we should live as roommates...I simply am not ready for that. The problem I keep running into is this-does forgiving mean I have to put myself right back into a position to be hurt again? I'm fighting the desire to walk away from this and chalk it up to lessons learned- wishing H the best with his new motivation to be honest. I'm 26 yrs. now. Maybe next time there'll be children involved. I still don't believe in staying married at any cost- not with biblical grounds for divorce. <P>Sorry- venting again- having a particularly bad night. Lots of churning emotions right now. I need to find the Dr. Dobson book you recommended.<P>Thanks for the input!<P> <P>

I'm going to jump in here and give some advice. Let me say first that I've read through both of your posts since day one...and I have a radical suggestion or two that may help you like it helped us.<BR>1. First of all...everything you've both posted is in the PAST..yup it's bad, yup, it's painful, yup it's hard to forgive and yup, you'll never forget...and you shouldn't (the forget part). So.... time to start living in the present and for the future. You now know the worst about each other...got no where to go but up from here.<BR>2. If there wasn't some feeling for each other...however small, you both wouldn't be here...it will grow if nourished, it will die if not.<BR>3. No decisions now...you're both in crisis and decisions made in crisis are usually hasty and wrong.....let me bounce the plan we used off of you.<P>The 90 day plan...we lived together for 90 days, neither partner allowed to ask if the other planned on leaving, neither allowed to threaten to leave for 90 days. During that time you spend time together not only working on the LB questionnares, EN questionnaires, and reading the Affair book, and keeping the recovery rules 100%, you both spend time having fun...golf, carnival, swiming..whatever, but have some fun.<BR>When you discuss marriage/affairs you do it without LB's, which means no blaming!!! You talk about your feelings and use a lot of I statements instead of You statements. Remember feelings aren't wrong..his may not be yours, and hers may not be yours, but they are valid and to be respected by each partner!<BR>You look at the good and the bad in your relationship...you are polite and Plan A each other..in short, you be the best you can be and you be completely honest! If a subject comes up that's too painful, you let your partner know and revisit it later. If things get too heated, either of you has the right to say STOP..this is too much, and the other must respect that.<BR>If you both want sex, have it.<BR>I'll let you know right now that the first 30 days were the hardest, walking into the house knowing I was with someone I did not trust, and he was scared too...didn't want to be browbeaten 24 hours a day. I wanted to hit him over the head with a frying pan at least once a day amd I know that feeling was returned. The next 60 just got better and better. The 90 days ended for us and we knew, yup, we got some problems, but we're in this together...we still keep up with a lot of the stuff we started then too. Of course I've simplified this..you guys can negotiate what you want, but it can work...the worst that will happen is that after 90 days, you will have both cooled down and be able to make some good judgements about your selves and your futures. Sure, you're on your best behavior....why not stay that way for the rest of your lives? You've already showed eath other the worst..now show each other the best!<BR>What do you two think...is this a possiblity?<BR>When you think of it..what do you really have to lose?<BR>T

Hi to both Missingher and Confused Heart,<P>You are both here. Good. You have both made mistakes that require forgiveness to heal. Acknowledged. You both know what it feels like to be cheated on. Acknowledged. You have different levels of love for each other, or so it seems. Acknowledged. <P>Now that brings us up to the current time. Are you both here for the same reasons? Do you both need support and see that your marriage is given the best chance possible? Are you both willing to work on this common goal individually and together? <P>Ah..... those are just some of the questions you must each ask yourselves and then discuss and decide together. There is so much here for you 2 to take advantage of. <P>Emotional Needs questionnaire and other questionnaires, etc.<BR>Phone counseling session with Steve or Jennifer<BR>Books - Surviving an Affair, His Needs/Her Needs, Givers/Takers, etc. <P><BR>We would love to see you 2 work it out. The emotional ties you both have had with others were due to missing the emotional needs with each other and your individual weaknesses. Do you recognize that? What are you 2 individually and together willing to do about it?<P>Please stick here with us and let us support you both. You sound like you have the ability to heal and restore your marriage. <P>JMHO.<P>L.<P><BR>

Twyla and Orchid.. you are so wonderful! Thanks - I learn so much you!

This has been like an answer to prayer for me. So much support from people who really know what its like to go through this. I know that my wife (CH) is trying to get through some very difficult stuff right now. I want to do everything I can to help her. I know I am plan A'ing my fanny off, I hope that she finds it in herself to start that too. Since I have been on here, I think I've made it clear my hopes and purpose and intentions. Now I am just praying that she will be able to see it, not in my words, but in the way I live my life for however much time God allows us to be on this earth. I am just hoping that she will give me that chance.<P>And yes W- I know that you like to make sure all the facts are out there...refreshing that she could fill in any blanks that might have been left. That's my Wife and I love her!!<P>Keep these posts coming...Faith you are like an answered prayer, all of you are. I never thought she would even look at this site, let alone begin posting and interacting. I have so much faith that God is working all of this out for our good. <P>We are going to a good Christian counselor...he too has much hope and says many of the things reflected in Dr. Harley's beliefs. Right now we are just trying to figure out whether we can live together. I'm praying and keeping my fingers crossed.<P>

I'm glad I could help. I am praying for you 2. God wants marriages to succeed. But He wants you 2 to figure some things out. Your marraige will become stronger through these struggles. <P>I truly hope that you decide that you can stay in the same house. It is so hard to begin learning how to better fill each other's EN's when separated. Take it slow and easy. <P>You both need to trust that God joined you together, and that He can show you the way to healing (through His Word, MB, us, and your counselor). It seems really hard right now because it all seems so new and confusing! Don't make any quick decisions. <P>Both of you, please keep reading, praying and posting. <P>May God Bless you and you marriage, indeed. May He expand your horizons, and His hand be with you. May He keep you from evil, that you may not cause or feel pain. <I>The Prayer of Jabez</I><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Twyla:<BR><B>The 90 day plan...we lived together for 90 days, neither partner allowed to ask if the other planned on leaving, neither allowed to threaten to leave for 90 days. During that time you spend time together not only working on the LB questionnares, EN questionnaires, and reading the Affair book, and keeping the recovery rules 100%, you both spend time having fun...golf, carnival, swiming..whatever, but have some fun.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would like to throw in here about Twyla's "90 day plan" that there is actually an outline for following something similar to this in a book called "Torn Asunder" by Dave Carder. It almost gives you day-by-day guidelines for what you are to do. It is based on Christian principles, since you both are looking to God for help with this....<P>A lot of the information also mirrors Harley's, but the 90 day plan goes a little more into detail in what would be involved in regaining intimacy, and opening the lines of communication while waiting for "feelings of love" to return.<P>You might want to locate a copy of that book, too. Many on here have read it as well.<P>Of course, I welcome you both here, and I am heartened to hear of another couple who is willing to work to try to restore their M even if they don't "feel like it" totally yet. I'm not there yet with my WH, but it will happen!<P>Lupo<BR>