i have been plan A'ing my back side off for 11.5 mos. all the while expecting WS to be honest with me about the A and any continued contact w/ OM. <P>i snoop and find out W has had continued contact w/ OM. i ask W about the contact and she denies it. W asks me "how do you know" or "why do you think so". i tell her that "i just know" or "i can tell by the way she treats me". while it is the true that i can tell W has had contact by gut feelings, treatment, etc. i do not tell her the way i verified my feelings/contact since i fell this is the only way i can protect myself.<P>feeling now that continued snooping will keep W and I in this circle should i come clean. tell W about how i am confirming the past continued contact or from this day forward no snooping, etc.?????<P>since i am feeling so hurt, embarassed,....like i imagine all other BS's feel, i just don't want to be blind sided by another D-Day like before. i feel that i am being selfish, asking W to be honest w/ me but in return i'm not honest w/ her. i justify the snooping to myself as: protecting myself like i should have before. i gave my W blind trust and was always honest w/ her about everything. the W in turn was not! i belive Steve H. addresses this issue on this site.<P>thoughts, ideas?<P>Mending<P>------------------<BR>

Sorry, I don't have any help for you, but I would like to know the answer also. I'm in the same sticky situation with H. I'm invading his privacy if I snoop, but I won't know anything if I don't.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumplin:<BR><B>Sorry, I don't have any help for you, but I would like to know the answer also. I'm in the same sticky situation with H. I'm invading his privacy if I snoop, but I won't know anything if I don't.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Me too. And I feel terrible about doing it. I don't know whether to come clean about it or not. I think if I back off like I'm planning it might just go away. She probably suspects something is up, but I think with everything else lately, it would be the last straw.<P>Trust is one of her ENs. And I'm not going to do anything again to not meet that need. I would really just like to let is go and never do anything again.

Well... this is such a good question, and a delicate issue for us BS's. I went through the snooping phase for a while. It's necessary for a while. I hope you get some "old-timers" advice on this one. <P>Snooping after the initial gathering of proof, began to eat away at me, and damaged a good plan A. When snooping, you are being dishonest, and the information you may find hurts and causes bitterness - which usually comes out in the form of an LB - either an angry outburst or a lie.<P>What kind of contact are you finding? If it is definite proof of a PA, that is more serious than a phone call or two, IMO. I'm tempted to say just back-off, and let it go. <P>Another thought is to do a search on this forum (or the Read-only forum) for the word SNOOPING, and see what kind of old posts you can find.<P>Old-timers have any advice here?<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 03, 2001).]

Positive,<P>Take it one step at a time. Have you read SAA and HNHN, and has the WS? Have you filled out EN Questionnaires. Has the WS executed a "No Contact" agreement? Have you had enough discussions where you feel confident that WS should have no contact? So, by this stage, you are working in a Plan A?<P>If you have not read SAA - you need to immediately. That will answer alot of questions, and formulate a game plan for (hopefully) the BS and WS to begin to live - does not always happen. So . . .<P>You are correct if you are snooping, and you are Plan Aing with honesty, if the WS finds out you've been snooping - that can be an LB. You may decide you want to come clean, and you want to have an honest conversation. Until the contact is completely dropped, you really cannot begin to work on the marriage. You can work on you - but WS probably won't work on it because the fog is clouding their vision. You don't want another d-day - sorry on this one, read the principles, any continued contact, further contact, any contact - brings you square back to another d-day.<P>But . . . on the snooping item - knowledge is power. The more you know, the better equiped to handle the bumps, you may hit your head and it may hurt. The books say if you have a gut feeling that something is going on, and the WS is still secretive (in anyway), does not tell you where they are, how to reach them, etc. chances are you are correct, and there is contact. So, we come to this being "sitting on the fence". The WS can't decide which way to go. Hopefully your plan A will win, and you will be wonderful (as you are), and the OP will begin to sense your WS slipping from their clutches, and will begin to LB, and depleat their love bank, and your WS will get so sick and tired of them, that the WS will decide to come back to the place they should have been all along. Doesn't always happen - but we can pray, hope, Plan A, and basically deal with the pain, anguish, and crumbling we are going through.<P>Snoop?????? If I hadn't . . . I wouldn't have found that there was a rose sent, mailing labels made for love cards, and calls from phone booths. Was it a tragedy? Yes, was it honest, from both sides, NO, but 18 mos. later, we are mending. One more month, means one more stronger. Snooping is wrong, but sneaking around, lying, cheating, deceiving, etc. is wrong, and definately two wrongs do not make a right. But you have a broken heart, and somehow it always goes like this same scenario. You will have to come to a decision for yourself how important this item is in your marriage, and how long you can wait. Remember, as long as they are trying to keep that other relationship alive - your marriage will not have the justice to heal.<P>aftersock

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by after shock:<BR><B>Positive,<P>Take it one step at a time. Have you read SAA and HNHN, and has the WS? Have you filled out EN Questionnaires. Has the WS executed a "No Contact" agreement? Have you had enough discussions where you feel confident that WS should have no contact? So, by this stage, you are working in a Plan A?<P>If you have not read SAA - you need to immediately. That will answer alot of questions, and formulate a game plan for (hopefully) the BS and WS to begin to live - does not always happen. So . . .<P>You are correct if you are snooping, and you are Plan Aing with honesty, if the WS finds out you've been snooping - that can be an LB. You may decide you want to come clean, and you want to have an honest conversation. Until the contact is completely dropped, you really cannot begin to work on the marriage. You can work on you - but WS probably won't work on it because the fog is clouding their vision. You don't want another d-day - sorry on this one, read the principles, any continued contact, further contact, any contact - brings you square back to another d-day.<P>But . . . on the snooping item - knowledge is power. The more you know, the better equiped to handle the bumps, you may hit your head and it may hurt. The books say if you have a gut feeling that something is going on, and the WS is still secretive (in anyway), does not tell you where they are, how to reach them, etc. chances are you are correct, and there is contact. So, we come to this being "sitting on the fence". The WS can't decide which way to go. Hopefully your plan A will win, and you will be wonderful (as you are), and the OP will begin to sense your WS slipping from their clutches, and will begin to LB, and depleat their love bank, and your WS will get so sick and tired of them, that the WS will decide to come back to the place they should have been all along. Doesn't always happen - but we can pray, hope, Plan A, and basically deal with the pain, anguish, and crumbling we are going through.<P>Snoop?????? If I hadn't . . . I wouldn't have found that there was a rose sent, mailing labels made for love cards, and calls from phone booths. Was it a tragedy? Yes, was it honest, from both sides, NO, but 18 mos. later, we are mending. One more month, means one more stronger. Snooping is wrong, but sneaking around, lying, cheating, deceiving, etc. is wrong, and definately two wrongs do not make a right. But you have a broken heart, and somehow it always goes like this same scenario. You will have to come to a decision for yourself how important this item is in your marriage, and how long you can wait. Remember, as long as they are trying to keep that other relationship alive - your marriage will not have the justice to heal.<P>aftershock</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Well, I snooped tonight and I've decided I would rather think that he really is confused and trying to work out his feelings than to think by his actions (hiding things) that I'm being played for a fool. It's better to be stupid and try your best than to try your best and have it come back and slap you in face. Worse thing is, you can't say anything about it or you're invading their privacy and smothering them. I don't know what my H is really thinking. I don't know if I'm being played for a fool--that's how I feel right now.

positive,<P>I too snooped when I had those gut feelings of betrail and drifting of W. The only difference was that I confronted her on it honestly. Honesty and openness are one of my biggest EN so I was trying to confirm in my mind and heart that WS awas being honest w/ me. Boy, was I ever caught off guard. Anyways I told her I snooped in her purse or where ever and basically needed the truth. It helped me to deal w/ the situation. By the way when I confronted her I didn't yell or blame or accused, I just tried to ask innocently hoping for a reasonable explanation, there never was. If it was right or not I do not know but WS has been gone for 3 weeks w/ OM but she wants to come home if she can find the strength and courage to commit to our M, and to face kids, family and friends, I'm trying to keep as quiet as possible, few know any details. Hope you have better luck than me, though mine seems to slowly be heading in the right direction. Getting sleep the last two nights has helped me to think somewhat staight, at least not to crumble under the weight of this roller coaster ride from hell.<BR>knight

aftershock and faith1,<P>thanks for coaching me thru w/ by sharing your knowledge and experiences w/ me. i hope dumplin and sad_but_true and others read your posts.<P>will get the books and stay here posting. i just wish i would have started posting here 11 mos. ago. this is just the second day of posting and the amount of support i have received has helped me GREATLY!!! and it appears (to me) the W can tell a difference in my 'tude already.<P>i or W haven't read the books. i am looking for them now. <P>W hasn't agreed to sending a "no contact" letter. W told me i could do it. which i may draft it and let her approve it (suggested by the friends here MB).<P>"Have you had enough discussions where you feel confident that WS should have no contact?" i do feel confident that we are ready to move on...but we are stuck at this stage. "the W keeps telling me that i will never forget" related to the snooping and me LB ing her w/ the findings. so.. i am going to try and quit LB w/ the findings. i do agree w/ "knowledge is power".<P>yes, your right about the d-day repeating it's self everytime there is contact. you can tell w/ any snooping.<BR>i really hate to say it but, it's like we are getting accustomed living this way and that worries me. has anyone else felt this way? oooo...i don't like it at all.<P><BR>the OM LB'd w/ W i belive in a big way by coming to our house and making scene approx 4 mos. after d-day. i think W broke of contact after that until....during snooping i found W's bank statement was being sent in care of OM at his address (he deposits $ in it). it was too much and i printed out the statement address and left it around for the W to find which see did. that was a big mistake/LB on my part. Hindsight is 2020!!! I believe W had PA again when she found the address. it was a BIG LB and set us back. now trying to get to that point and again learn from my mistakes. which is eaiser than it sounds when it comes to handling A (as i/m sure we know).<P>will read, post and plan A and pull W to my side of the fence <P>thanks guys!<BR>

What exactly is a "no contact" letter? I've read about it, but can't find any examples.

<BR>dumplin,<P>On the MB Home page under Quick Clicks you will find "The Ending" read this linnk to get info on No Contact.<P>positive

Here's my take on this issue (take it or leave it, it's only my personal opinion).<P>I think it is important to snoop when the WS is keeping too many secrets. And by continuing contact with the OP and denying it entirely.. that's one hell of a secret that needs to be revealed. Remember, it's the secrecy that keeps the fantasy of the A alive.<P>I did an awful lot of snooping on my WH. A few times he found out about it before I could tell him... but for the most part, I would confront him on my 'findings' when I was ready. And never did I intend to keep it all a secret to myself. It's not in my nature.<P>Was doing that causing LB's? You betcha. But we're all human. When you approach your spouse with the news that you know there is still contact with the OP, no matter how caring you word it all, it's still going to be a huge LB to them.<P>But IMHO, isn't it better to get it all out in the open? Why continue the charade? <P>I will admit, I took my snooping too far. It got to the point where I wasn't gaining any new information. Just the same old same old on different days. So all that did was hurt more. Yet I continued to snoop. I'm still having trouble with it now, even though H and I have been in recovery for over 2 months. (Granted, he has willingly given me his passwords and will answer questions to the best of his ability whenever I ask).<P>Again, IMO, I think you should confront your W on your findings. However, do yourself a favour, and stop asking her the question you already know the answer to. That only hurts more when she lies. Just tell her in a non-LBing fashion that you know that she is continuing contact with the OM, and that makes you feel - fill in the blank-. It will still be an LB to her... but you really need to get it out in the open. <P>If she asks you how you know that, be totally honest. If she doesn't ask, and simply denies it, still be honest, and tell her how you know. And be ready to tell her how important it is for her to end contact altogether, in order for the two of you to work on your marriage. But that may have to wait a few days until she's calmed down from being found out.<P>Let us know what you decide to do. <P>Karen<BR>

Thanks Positive. Just wanted to let you know I found the article.

My views on "snooping". Again,,MY mine, not supported or accepted as MB principles. I looked and looked in my MB books and couldn't find anything that "specifically" discussed "snooping".<P>I snooped to discover my H's affair. My only regret is that I waited sooo long to do so. Had I investigated earlier, it might have been interupted when she was a "secret friend" rather than a long term OW. But I was foolishly too trusting and blind. <P>My decision to snoop came only after numerous(too numerous to count) attempts to pry truthful answers from him. Had I received the truth rather than lies and denial, I would have had no reason to take it further. <P>The way I see it,,the decision to be unfaithful has a DIRECT bearing on MY life and MY health. I have a right to protect MY life by whatever means necessary. If he isn't going to be concerned about it,,I sure am. <P>And I felt the same way after his request to rebuild our marriage. He had already proven to me I couldn't count on his word. I had good reasons to doubt his honesty and truthfulness. Until I felt otherwise, that I could again trust him, I was going to make every effort to take care of me,,again, by whatever means necessary. <P>Was he angry when he discovered my "snooping"? A little but what could he really say when he is the one that chose to lie? I never felt the need to tell him EXACTLY how I knew what was going on and what methods I used to get that info. And I didn't allow him to make me feel guilty for any method I used. I was protecting myself, us, and our family from being destroyed. And I refuse to believe that's wrong. <P>

I, too, wish that I had begun "snooping" from the get-go. I trusted my husband so much!! I never entertained a single thought that he would ever lie to me and work devious schemes to hide things from me.<P>You know, when I found condoms in his backpack, knowing full well that he did not need to use them with me, I accepted his vague tale of "oh, they were there from a long long time ago." And when I found a pair of strange panties in my laundry, I was thinking that my daughter just had a mix-up in the locker room at school (but these were woman's underclothes, not a 10 year old's.)<P>I feel like everyone else here. . .underhanded and sly for getting into my husband's things to uncover more evidence. It has become such a game--the lies, the research and investigations (not professional but they might as well be: I have become a hacker, a hand-writing expert, a detective, an interrogater, and a criminal psychologist) <P>And then--I face his wrath!!!! at my snooping. All the sudden, his privacy is of the upmost importance to him. I keep telling him that he only feels like this if he has something to hide, and he insists that he doesn't. But I always find something. . .and it devestates me anew when I do. <P>What makes me sad is what I myself have become--I have started to lie when he catches me into his things. No I didn't open the letter, no, I didn't read the file, no, I didn't contact that girl, no, I don't know what you are talking about. . .<P>This would all change if he would just be honest!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bernzini:<BR><B><BR>This would all change if he would just be honest!!!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can't rely on him. It's up to you to start the process. You know the drill.. only you can control your actions, you cannot control what anyone else does. It's what you do that is important right now. How he reacts depends on what it is that you do.<P>If you already have the evidence of the OW, then remember that the more you snoop now, it will only cause you more hurt. Protect yourself. Confront him, and try hard to stop snooping. Trust me, I know all too well how hard it is. I always had an excuse too. Mostly the fact that I wondered who he was with 'this week' (he slept with a total of 3 different women during our separation, and had 'dates' with goodness knows how many more). But it still came to the point where it was the same old same old. The same lies, but to a different person.<P>Work on you. Stop the guilt. To stop it, is to stop the snooping. But only if you're ready.<P>Karen<BR>

well guys i am still snooping. tonight saw cell phone from OM in wifes purse. all call records cleared. so i don't know if any contact has occured. didn't say anything to W and i don't intend to. <P>the past couple of days have improved, with W getting up and telling me she wanted to give me a kiss before i left. so that made me feel a little better. since i mentioned (LB'd) to her about the $ and cell phone i think she is leaning on my side of the fence. she mentioned yesterday about not having good judgement about something. not related to our W but i will take it just the same. trying to see the cup half full.<P>i am surprized how every word or action by W i have been analyzing. not as much as before but still just the same.<BR>is anyone else in this boat?<P>positive

I agree with Aftershock, Topie 25, and Nerlycrzy. If I hadn't snooped I would not know what I know now. WH continues to deny that he's having an EA he has lied every step of the way. When I do confront him no matter which way I approach it he is enraged. I know the A is still going on and I still snoop because my WH isn't being honest with me about anything.I have given him every opportunity to come clean as I'm sure many of us have, the lies and deceit hurt every one in the family and we all know this. Why should I be honest w/him about snooping it will only cause more problems. When he is ready to try to talk with me openly and honestly and all the cards are on the table I will tell him whatever he wants to know.<BR>cybil

I can't remember where - nor can I trace it down, but I think I came across something that refers to snooping in the website - maybe not by name but by concept. I'm left with the feeling that is something the WS (I hope I have this acronym right here - I'm pretty new!) should expect after having deceived there spouse. <P>Seems to me, the rules I use in the other difficult situations in life may work here. If I need to do something that may disturb other parties, I first come absolutely clean and explain what I need to do and offer an apology for hurting them along the way.<P>I snooped last night in my H's home office (his home now, I have moved out)<BR>I read some of his journal. Not ethical maybe, but we now play by new rules.<BR>Day by day, he has written things opposite to what he would say to me.<P>Day by day!<P>I think it is good for me to know.<P>I am going to try my best not to confront him with my new knowledge - but to use it to understand the situation.<P>He is absolutely confused. I think he may use this journal as a balancing tool when he feels he needs to assert his own thoughts. Which in his mind now are the opposite of 'my' thoughts or the thoughts he shares with me.<P>But I know him well enough now to be able, I think to judge some of this and sometimes the things in his journal sound like denial more then an outpouring of honesty.<P>So, I will probably continue to snoop. Try to use what I find to learn about how his mind is working now. Try to avoid confrontations & fess up to him about my snooping, but explain that it is not a behaviour I seem to be able to refrain from in this emotionally charged place.<P>that is the best I can do so I may at least be honest about it. I hope I can return to my previous belief in his privacy which I maintained, with no trouble, through our long years together.

I am a bit new here, but I would like to give my two cents on this topic. I am a WS who mostly used the internet and had a one night PA. On top of this, I am a "sex addict" as the internet had (past tense!) become my drug.<P>I was found out on my internet activities by my Brother in law. From that point, I was worried about snooping so I made every attempt to clear files, etc. I was, during this time, lying to my wife about my activities. I kept telling her that she was free to review my logs all the time hoping she would not.<P>Her perspective was and is that she is not my nanny. If I want that activitiy, that is my choice. She can not CONTROL what I do. She also feels that is an emotional drain searching, snooping for her. She said, "if we are to be together, I have to trust you -- if I can not, there is no reason to be a couple."<P>Did I abuse that trust, yes I did. I also have come clean telling her about my total activities. I want my marriage to work, and the only way it can is via that trust.<P>She, during this time, was keeping a journal for herself. Knowing this, I took to snooping, looking for it, wanting to know what she really thought about me.....I spent hours looking, hours feeling emotionally drained. I mentioned this to my therapist, and his question was "what are you going to gain from it?" I thought about it -- nothing. I, too, need to trust her -- to allow her her space. I am no longer looking. I realized I was looking to validate how I felt about myself (which was very poor) -- so I could confirm, through her journal, that I was as bad a person as I thought I was.<P>I also have poor memories of looking for my Mother's liquor bottles as a child --- feeling that if I found it, I could CONTROL the situation, I could control her drinking. I am coming to understand that I can control my own thoughts and actions, but I can not control those of others.<P>In a nut shell, and please understand this is my second day here ;-), I feel snooping does you no good. I do understand from above posts others have found out more about the WS acivities-- which, I believe, can only add to lowering our feelings of emotional and physical worth. I am in no way suggesting that we allow our S to do what ever they want -- you need to know just don't loose your self trying to find out more dirt-- if your S is going to do an activity it is their choice - they can choose to change, or choose to continue with the same behavior. You can not control that -- you can ask, you can suggest, but it is out of your control.<P>All My Best,<P>BM