I'd like to offer my own spin to this famous MB question.<BR>I'm referring to opposite sex friends. (I guess this could refer to same sex as well?)<P>Friends: talk about "stuff". (events, kids, pets)<P>Good Friends: talk about feelings - like, for others.<P>EA: talk about feelings - for each other.<P>---<P>Friends: You see 'em when you see 'em.<P>Good Friends: Need to see them regularly, but don't make special effort.<P>EA: Addiction. Why aren't they available now? I'm home, they're home, bingo we're talking. We're not talking - duh, they're not home.<P>These are primarily long distance characteristics. There must be more, especially from those familiar with a "local" EA.<P>What about the comments of the following type?<P>"You're the woman I've waited my life for, but you're already married so we'll just be friends."<P>This has been on my mind for a while. Seems like a good weekend thread.<P>--Jeffers<BR>

Jeffers,<P>Not sure if I understand your directions but I'll take a shot at it. <P>Good friends: May not be there all the time but when you do connect, it is like picking up right where you left off. We have some friends I don't even see once a year (they live far away). Yet when we do get together, it is like we just saw them yesterday. Our kids get along great, I can talk to the H and W together separately and same with H. No fear of EA/PA here. The care is like family. In fact when we went to the zoo on vacation there a few years ago, a lot of people thought her H was my H and my girl friend was my H's W. Role reversal. No jealousy or anything, our friends always show lots of love with each other. Yes, I know A can happen to anyone, these friends have been supportive to me when they found out. Right now, I trust them with my life. But anything can happen. For now, they fit into my category of good friends. <P>I have never wanted her H for my personal use and don't feel either mate thought that. As friends, they are a good fit. <P>On the other hand, befriending anyone with a character like the OW would be dangerous even as a casual acquaintance. Have I ever met anyone like that? Maybe a few. Nowhere as close as this OW. Comes charging in like a mad rhino. Doesn't care who gets hurt along the way. Yet she is someone's daughter, sister, wife and neighbor (she doesn't have any kids we know of). Look out, she could be your neighbor. That is scary. <P>You know in the olden days, people knew who their neighbors were and their characters. Too many transient people nowdays. <P>OW now wants to Mi Casa Tu Casa H (my house is your house). H is scared and 'suppose' to be making his move out. We will see. Pretty brazen woman. Thinks she owns H. Oh yea, for those of you that haven't heard yet, OW told me that I was not married to H. Guess she must have gotten emotionally married to H sometime ago. Wondered who performed the ceremony? <P>So my girlfriend and her H are true friends (in my book), yet OW doesn't even rank an honorable mention. <P>How far off base is this response?<P>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 04, 2001).]

jeffers, the only statement I might not agree with that you made is Good friends: need to see them regularly, but don't make special effort.<BR>I don't agree. If they're such good friends, male or female, of course you make a special effort to see them, or atleast I would.<BR>In today's busy world you almost have to put alot of effort into setting you "dates".<BR>I have a male friend, I now live across the country from, our friendship is mostly over the phone now, there's a three hour time difference, so to catch him at home I have to stay up pretty late, but I do cuz I enjoy our phone conversations and need to have them at least once a week. Is this making too much effort and therefor can be considered an emotional affair? Too s ome I'm sure it is, to me and him and my H, no, it's just one friend making the effort to keep in touch with another friend.

Jeffers,<P>RE: “I'm referring to opposite sex friends. (I guess this could refer to same sex as well?) “<P>Yes, I do believe this can refer to the same sex as well since we know that now all sexual relationships are heteral sexual. However, when same sex friends are of the type that a person just puts their friends ahead of their spouse but there is no deep “love” relationship between them, I would not classify that as an EA. Am I making sense here?<P>Here’s my take on what you wrote. I would not say that this is the final definition but maybe we can slowly refine it here. <P>----Friends: talk about "stuff". (Events, kids, pets) You see 'em when you see 'em. Your spouse is aware of these people but you don’t talk much about them because they hold very little importance in your life. POJA of your spouse guides this relationship.<P>----Good Friends: talk about feelings - like, for others. Sometimes good friends talk about their feelings for each other but these feeling do not interfere with those for your spouse. Good friends have feels for each other that are like those shared by brother/sister in a healthy sibling relationship. However, there is no sexual longing involved. Need to see them regularly. At times you make special effort to see them. However, your spouse, children, job and extended families needs come first. Your spouse is aware of these people and has some sort of interaction with them. I believe that these people must also be friends of your spouses on some level or a problem can grow over this type of friendship in a marriage. Though important to you, these friendships should never be put ahead of the needs of your spouse, children and job. POJA of your spouse guides this relationship. <P>----EA: Addiction: talk about feelings for each other. They often long for each other in a sexual way. (i.e., "You're the woman I've waited my life for, but you're already married so we'll just be friends.") EA partners have feelings for each other that would not exist in a healthy sibling relationship. This friendship starts to fill the Ens that your spouse is supposed to fill. The time you spend with this person takes away from the special, one-on-one time you should be spending with your spouse. The need to see/talk to this person starts to out way the needs of your spouse. Your spouse is not a part of this relationship on the same level as you are and you have secrets from your spouse with this person. POJA becomes secondary to this relationship.<P>Another way to judge is of relationship at work crosses the line, is to ask if the relationship would be appropriate with the other people you work with. Is a husband’s relationship with a female co-worker the same kind of relationship he would have with a male co-worker (assuming he is not gay or bi-sexual.)<P>My 2 cents.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Good post on this subject...be sure to read the quoted article post...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/005327.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/005327.html</A>

I think the main difference is that friends can be shared with the spouse. When my H insisted on remaining friends with the OW, I said, "Fine, then let me meet her. She can come over for dinner, etc. I know all your other friends, so I will just get to know her too." Called his bluff on that one!! An EA would be something one would have to keep secret - from friends, co-workers, family, etc.

Faith1,<P>For the most part I agree with what you have said here. But I have known of people who have affairs with joint friends. My sister's husband had an affair with one of our cousins who was my sisters "best friend". The affair started when the cousin was staying at my sister's house during an extended two-month vacation. Soooo, being shared friends does not completely protect or define the difference between "friends" and "EA". Some people have more gall then can be imagined.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited August 04, 2001).]

Sorry everyone. I started this thread and then abandoned it. Back now. A bit to digest here.<P>Orchid:<P>I guess my question was in the topic header. I got a little unfocused in the post. I want to know where everyone thinks the line is or should be. This is probably one of those grey areas that's going to be an individual issue. It's interesting that you point out that how close you can safely get may depend on the character of the other person as well. <P>Orchid, Shedawg and Zorweb: all three of you have really hit on my problem. I haven't had what I consider a "good friend" since college (22 years ago). It's been just W and me against the world. So, I'm only imagining the characteristics of good friends right now. I suspect that W is in the same boat in terms of recent good friends. <P>Oh, after reading your post again Orchid, I see exactly what I'm trying to figure out. You have this very close relationship with your friends and trust them implicitly. But, if we were to poll the board I bet we'd find a few who were in the same situation and then ended up with an A between two of the group. <P>It sounds a lot like you spend a lot of time together as group. I bet EA requires some amount of privacy/secrecy to occur. That's what I forgot to add to my list. Amount of secrecy from spouse. <P>Kam: that was a really good post from the Emot. Needs forum. I have to browse through there more often. There is also an excellent post over there on the latest MB newsletter.<P>I've got to go think some more. I'll be back later with more comments.<P>--Jeffers<P>

More thoughts.<P>Z - You comment on good friends being like a healthy brother/sister relationship. I suspect that it's hard to have a brother/sister relationship with someone else, even though that may be the claim. The b/s relationship contains a sort of built in protection - there can never even be a possible romantic thought. I can't believe those thoughts don't occur even in the most platonic relationship. I do believe that the parties may continually push those thoughts aside, but.... the possibility is always open. I don't think the thoughts have to sexual, necessarily, just romantic (what's that?).<P>I think I'm still skirting the issue here. Good friends are just close to the line (but not across it). How close can they get????<P>I also agree with your comment on Faith's reply (thanks Faith). While shared friends may be safer, that's not a guarantee. W desparately wanted to hook me up with OM, and I don't think she was bluffing. He seems like a really nice guy and I'd probably like him, but that a whole 'nother story.<P>I'm think I'm becoming less focused as I go. Gotta digest some more.<P>--Jeffers<P><BR>

The line is fairly simple, if you want to marry your freind (but can't), it is an EA. If you want to sleep with your friend (but can't), it is an EA. If you choose to interact with your friend, rather than spouse when a choice arises, it is an EA.

Most interesting, SnL.<P>This must be one of your most succinct and to the point posts. <P>Almost seems too simple. Need to go think some more. Thanks.<P>--Jeffers

Yeah, I can be succinct on occassion I have another opinion as well, there is no such a thing as an EA. All EA are physical affairs that have just not happened yet. You can have just a pa though, that is the realm of sex addicts, and personality disorders that deal with their affliction sexually, yet seek no real connection with someone. I have a great deal of experience with this, the ow and I were absolutely committed to being "just friends", we spent dozens of hours discussing this, and setting boundaries, and making committments to each other. We were committed Christians, moral, ethical, pillars of the community, and extremely strong-willed people. We watched each other intently for the slightest sign of unworthiness, of deception, there was none. Our honesty and sincerity were our undoing, the friendship turned to love, and it was real, and love will not be denied, is unstoppable, is a force unto itself, as many who have gone before us already know. This is not playing with fire (having a friend you develop any "feelings" for, or living a marriage without protection in place), it is playing with a nuclear bomb, you will not be burned, you will be completely consumed, and the collateral damage will be enormous.

Jeffers, <P>You are right that keeping male/female relationships safe, as in healthy brother/sister relationships is very hard. Because usually if we care for someone of the opposite sex enough for them to be very close friends then there is only a thin line keeping they away from turning into EA or PA. I believe this is why Harley says that these relationships should be limited in nature. We should avoid close friendship relationships with persons of the opposite sex when we allow them to meet the Ens our spouse is supposed to meet. <P>If you look at writings about platonic relationships around the time of Shakespeare, you will find that they are about EA’s where the parties are pining to be more then that to each other. Today we seem to forget the sexual and emotional undertones that word really implies. <P>This is a problematic issue for heterosexuals. You can only imagine what it may be like for bi-sexuals who could potentially find anyone, male or female, to be potential lovers (EA or PA). Boy am I glad I’m not bi. Life is complicated enough.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

snl<P>I like your examples but I think they avoid the grey area I'm interested in. For example, the spouse may not be thinking M or sex, but longs to see the OP in person, but can't. Or maybe they imagine walking a pier hand in hand with OP, but can't. <P>Maybe if they imagine doing ANYTHING with OP that they wouldn't tell their spouse about then it's EA. Or maybe you actually have to explore that possibility with OP before it becomes EA. (I don't think having a fantasy all by your lonesome should be considered EA.)<P>The thing about all these is that they are INTERNAL states known only to WS. Even intercepted conversations, email, etc. are only external clues and may not indicate what a WS is really feeling. <P>You did have a concrete example: choosing OP over spouse in spending time. But, that sometimes happens even with normal friends, so I think maybe more elements need to be present at the same time.<P>Z <P>I find it amazing how much of this stuff is in Pop as well as classical culture. So many songs on the radio (that my kids listen to) make me cringe. Songs that make betrayal ok.<P>oops, gotta go.<P>--Jeffers<p>[This message has been edited by jeffers (edited August 05, 2001).]

Good Friends…<BR>1. show kindness, thoughtfulness, and gentleness.<BR>2. make you laugh.<BR>3. open their lives to you.<BR>4. can be trusted.<BR>5. pray for you and your family.<BR>6. welcome you to their homes.<BR>7. celebrate your birthday.<BR>8. are happy and eager to meet your spouse and children.<BR>9. accept invitations to your home.<BR>10. want to meet your other friends.<BR>11. stand constant and reliable.<BR>12. call before coming to your home.<BR>13. remain sources of joy, not sorrow.<BR>14. support and encourage your marriage.<BR>15. enthusiastically “do lunch.”<BR>16. remember your anniversary.<BR>17. feel comfortable around your family.<BR>18. make you stronger.<BR>19. forgive and forget.<BR>20. earn appreciation from your spouse.<BR>21. never ask, “Why are you still with him/her?”<BR>22. write notes and cards you gladly share with your family.<BR>23. hold no obsessions for each other.<BR>24. give you good feelings about your feelings for them.<BR>25. harbor no secrets from your spouse about their relationship.<BR>26. cause no pain, no confusion, and no embarrassment.<BR>27. respect and preserve the bond between you and your spouse.<BR>28. don’t have to be explained as “just” good friends.<BR>29. don’t need to be discussed in therapy.<BR>30. know when the friendship must end.<P>SaltWater<BR>

If you want my $0.03 on this, I'd say that we 'all' at some point in time will find somebody of the opposite sex attractive - and sometimes sexually too. Being married doesn't mean being dead below the waist. And none of us are saints !!!! not that I know of anyway :-)<P>In my opinion, and I think Harley has this right, an EA or PA is behaviour that the S can't or won't accept. And I think that's correct because each of us have different relationships, thresholds, values, experiences, etc, etc.<P>For me, a friend (close or otherwise) of my wifes and purports to be a friend of mine is somebody who would always consider OUR feelings in their relationship with us. Somebody who is only interested in my W and not me wouldn't consider this, their behaviour would reflect that and I'd be very wary of them.<P>Another example would be that I'm not sure my wife is being my friend at the moment because she's not considering my feelings in some of her relationships.<P>

SaltWater<P>Great list. I can't think of any situations you missed!<P>Freddy<P>Jimmy Carter comes to mind here. You know the I've sinned in my heart comment. I don't think straying thoughts count. I think you really have to have two to tangle. But, as you point out, Harley says that it's your spouse's viewpoint that really matters.<P>--Jeffers