(I posted this in Plan A and B also...)<P>I'm not sure I am posting this in the right place. I'm new to posting. I didn't just find out, but I'm just now letting the whole thing cave in on me. I found out last March that my husband was spending almost the whole day online chatting to different women (only women). I was busy going through an intensive, year long, work/school program that kept me gone from the house from dawn to late night, and he was out of a job. In the few months he was out of a job he started finding women online to fill up his hours. He spoke with at least three of them on the phone, and to one in particular he phoned almost every day for two months, and only stopped because I found out, I'm sure. I think they may have met - there were some e-mails I discovered later planning a meeting - but he denies that vehemently.<P>I was devastated, but I didn't have the luxury of falling completely apart. I had many papers to write, exams to take. Luckily I found out right before a week long break from my school endeavors, and I found marriage builders online - I printed out things for us to work together on. He seemed to really want to rebuild with me. Not at first perhaps, I remember his initial anger that I'd found out - all the lying and covering up he did. The promises he broke over and over all the way through May. He only admitted what I found out on my own or what women told me I'd confront online. <P>In fact it wasn't until the week of my graduation from the grueling program I did succeed in finishing that he said he "finally got it" and realized that what he was doing wasn't a good thing for our marriage. He claims to have felt that before that it was something he stubbornly would not stop because it was "all a game," "a fantasy world" and he figured if he could keep me from knowing it would be okay to continue. <P>He has lied so much - or hidden the truth or broken promises so many times that it's hard to have faith ... The only time he was completely honest (I think) was the night I read the phone bill, and confronted that one most important girl online. (I call her a girl because I am 44 and she is 29). She confessed "all" (if she's not lying too) to me, so he couldn't lie anymore. (I sensed he felt great betrayal from her.) He claims he never said this now - denies ever having uttered it - which makes me feel crazy sometimes - but he actually said he wasn't sure he loved me anymore that night. I remember I was so afraid of scaring him away from being honest that I held back all the tears and sat very still to listen. <P>There was a time I believed every word he said. Those days ended four years ago - the first time he started doing this. We went to marriage counseling about it back then, and I thought it would never happen again. I felt it was a mid-life crises occurrence, and that he'd been having self esteem problems that I exacerbated by "moving up" while he didn't - by expecting him to be more productive as a father and husband in the home. In other words I blamed myself for adding to his low self-esteem and felt that I'd tried hard to make him feel loved for who he is and not demand more than he's capable of these past four years.<P>Now I find myself unable to "move on." He says it's all in the past why do I still need to know anything more. I wonder myself. Money ties our hands as far as getting much needed counseling. I feel so alone. I have a good friend, but I want her to think everything's fine now. He's stopped. (He can't do anything, I'm home all the time this summer waiting for a new job to start this Fall.) I want our friends and family to keep thinking of him the same old wonderful way. He just doesn't seem like the type of guy who would do anything like this!<P>I can't feel close. I feel like I'm clinging to a brick wall. I need him to tell me why it happened, how it happened ... I can't help feeling like it would all still be going on if I hadn't found out - if I hadn't been home all summer ....<P>We worked on our emotional needs questionnaires, and he was so into it - but then simply never did any of things he says he understood would help rebuild. It was great however, to finally get him to voice some of his needs! It's hard to try to make things better when the other person doesn't ever tell you what it is they want!<P>However, I feel that when I am out of his sight I am out of his mind. He has given me flowers twice in five months since I told him that a token like that would help me feel that he actually had the energy for forethought when it came to me. And both of those times I simply asked him to please bring me some. They weren't his idea.<P>Last Valentine's Day, right before I found out - D day I think it's termed here - I received no card, no flowers. We met for lunch because by some lucky chance there was a half day for me that day. I found out by the phone bill later that our lunch date was sandwiched in by phone calls to the OW. The special one that I believe may have been more than mere instant messaging, e-mails, and phone. He insists that means nothing. That calling her "my baby" in e-mail meant nothing.<P>Most of these these women - especially her - were going through emotional upheavals, and he "was there" for them.<P>I'm jealous because he is rarely there for me emotionally. In fact I feel that if I ask for anything I'm bugging him. His online self was perfect. With me, he's often grouchy and short tempered.<P>Okay- I've made this way too long. And now I feel like a big whiner to boot. He tells me that if I didn't whine he'd want to give more of himself to me. But I hang on so long waiting for him to remember my emotional needs on his own. If I ask - or tell - no matter how calmly, or openly, I am up for rejection and anger. He merely turns the tables and says I hadn't given him what he wanted yet - if I ask what that is it usually turns out to be being the aggressor. I try to explain that I'm so scared of rejection and so in need of his reassurance that I was unable ... then I try and he pushes me away ... <P>Now I feel like signing this: "Hurt and Confused in California"<P>------------------<BR>Jena<BR>If you don't stand for <BR>something, you'll fall for <BR>anything<p>[This message has been edited by Jena (edited August 04, 2001).]

Okay - so I'm replying to myself! But I wanted to add what I thought of later - and have already posted elsewhere - hoping for feedback ...<P><<After reading more about what Plan A is all about, I guess I could say that this time my husband and I finally seem to be beginning it. He threw out his internet account and shares my account only when necessary to do online banking and browsing to find information ... and only when I'm around. That's a good beginning, right?<P>I think what I really need to know is, how can I ever stop wondering what more I don't know? He says he's told me all there ever was, but bit by bit, if I ask at the "right" moments, and in the "right" way, (pretending not to care anymore) he has let me know more and more. Like the fact that he cybered with some of the women. For the longest time he was adamant about never having done that at all. Now he admits that he did, but only because he enjoyed telling OW what he thought they needed to hear. I understand it was all a game to him. What I can't get is why he needed to play it!<P>When someone thinks for months and months that they are not lying to you because they haven't told you everything ... when someone promises to stop something because it hurts you and then simply keeps on doing it as long as they don't get caught ... how am I supposed to suddenly just trust him? That's what he wants! My complete trust and faith after all that! Without doing anything that shows remorse or care.<P>I know what I feel I need in order to rebuild trust, but he doesn't begin to try. He forgets all about it, and then wonders why I still try to discuss it. <P>I still need to know how he could say certain things to OW other than myself that I read him to say - certain things I've been told he said. Things a man only says to a woman he loves and cares about deeply ... I feel like I'm looking at the tip of this ice berg that I know would hurt - even kill me emotionally for a while - to see all of ... and yet I know I will never let it go or truly be able to live happily with him again until he is completely open, doesn't side step my questions and simply tells all, so I can get through the pain and move onward.<P>If he's really stopped, I need to hear why he has stopped. I need to hear why he wants to be married to me still and what changed his mind about fooling around online. <P>Right now it still feels like he'd probably get right back to it as soon as he could.<P>I want a friend in him. Right now I feel like I'm some enemy to be dealt with, placated, and I think that hurts much more than anything he's done that was unfaithful. How can we ever be close if he's holding back? <P>He has said many times that he doesn't tell me everything because he doesn't want to hurt me, and that I'm being ridiculous to want to know because it never mattered to begin with! That "elbow story" in the latest newsletter kind of reminded me of the pain he has caused me. He has actually told me I shouldn't be hurting because he never meant to cause any pain. I'll copy and paste that story below for anyone who missed it.<P>Anyway, thanks for listening.<P>Jena<P><<Ed and Nancy were really enjoying themselves at the Wilson's party. <BR>They had not been out together in weeks because of how busy they <BR>have been. They even were able to have the babysitter they most <BR>trusted to watch the kids. Things were going very well.<P>As Ed and Nancy stood together talking, Ed felt a tap on his shoulder <BR>and turned around to see who it was. As he turned, he felt his <BR>elbow hit something.<P>"OUCH!" someone yelled.<P>He turned around to look at what the commotion was and noticed Nancy <BR>holding her nose with a look of surprise on her face.<P>"Why did you do that?" she questioned Ed.<P>"Do what?" As he looked closer at her nose, it began bleeding. <BR>"Oh, my goodness, honey. How did that happen?" he asked.<P>"How did that happen!? You elbowed me in the nose is what happened!" <BR>she said with a subdued yet angry voice.<P>Ed looked closer at her nose to see if it was broken. Meanwhile, a <BR>friend brought a damp rag for the blood.<P>"Look honey, I don't understand why it should hurt so much. In <BR>fact, I'm not sure why it should hurt at all." Ed stated.<P>A shocked look came over Nancy's face. "What!?"<P>"Listen, you know it was an accident, don't you? Of course you do. <BR>You know I would never do this intentionally." he said with a Perry <BR>Mason like attitude. "So, if I had no intention of hurting my <BR>beloved wife and if you accept the fact that this was just an <BR>accident, then the pain should go away and everything should be fine <BR>again. See?" Ed said. He then stepped back with a strangely <BR>confident smile on his face.<P>"Now," he continued, "this is a rare night for us to get out. <BR>Let's not spoil the occasion. Besides, it's in the past."<P>-------------<P>Tempted to hit him back? Of course hitting is not the answer. <BR>However, you can clearly see that Ed lacks the ability to understand <BR>the true nature of what happened and what he should do about it. <BR>Amazingly, this type of logic is used all too often between couples. <BR>Not with physical pain, but with emotional pain.<P>How many times have you heard your spouse, or you for that matter, <BR>say "Oh, you know that's not what I meant to say." or "No. You just <BR>heard me wrong." There are countless variations on this theme, but <BR>the message is the same: If pain is caused unintentionally, then <BR>the pain should not exist.<P>What Ed should have done was to acknowledge that it was his elbow <BR>that caused the pain, demonstrate care by attending to the wound, <BR>and, even though she knows that he wouldn't do such a thing <BR>intentionally, he still needs to apologize for the pain he caused. <BR>Ideally, he would also let her know what he is going to do <BR>differently in the future in order to prevent this from happening <BR>again (future protection).<P>Sounds like overkill? Hmm... If you think so, then your Taker <BR>must be reading this.>>

Hi Jena,<P>Welcome to Marriage Builders. There are a wide range of tools to use here. I see you have found the emotional needs questionnaire. Have you read over the basic concepts? Some of books here, suriviing an affair, his needs/her needs, givers/takers and love must be tough (this last one is by Dr. James Dobson, the others are by Dr. Harley), these books can be found at the library. <P>You have a running start. You both recognize there is a problem and have made attempts to work on it. <P>Here is the thread we send to welcome newcomers. <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003945.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003945.html</A> <P>It contains information on what is known as plan A, plan B and a general welcome to familiarize you with the concepts here at marriage builders. <P>Just some background on me. My H went on-line, had several 1 nighters with massage palors women and finally strong EA/Pa with the current OW. He is living with her and is having a hard time breaking away. You can read some of my posts on their A. Not pretty. <P>Anyway, your situation sounds more like an EA for your H. Has he ever had a physical A? The one that does the most damage is the EA. Unless there is a child by the oW involved, then that has it's own set of bad issues. The EA runs everything into the ground, our love, patience, etc. It raises our frustration level to great heights and we may feel beaten. <P>Nonetheless, you have come to the right palce. Read up all you can, post and vent here. Some come as a couple, many come as a single poster. <P>Can you and your H be helped? Yes. Without a counselor for the moment? Yes. We are not making promises to restore your marriage but we can be here to help and support both you and your H. We are not professionals, just persons also going through one of the roughtest times in our lives. Yet we have each other to help us. <P>You will find a variety of opinions, advice and support. Weigh each carefully and use what is beneficial for your situation. <P>I will let you digest this and let you do your research. I will check back with you later. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P>

Jena,<P>Hi Welcome to Marriage Builders.. sorry you found your way here, but maybe we can help you travel the road that we are only beginning to find our way on. Have you looked through the site? Have you read some of the principals that are here for you? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I can't feel close. I feel like I'm clinging to a brick wall. I need him to tell me why it happened, how it happened ... I can't help feeling like it would all still be going on if I hadn't found out - if I hadn't been home all summer <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your hurt.. and that wall that your clinging to right now .. the brick one.. is surrounding you. Its there now and you need to figure out how to get over it.. the wall that is.. so you can understand why this happened to you and your husband. Okay.. crappy analogy.. but.. I think it has some merit to it. When we learn of our spouses infidelity.. we become our own worst enemy.. <P>Orchid.. the quote.. #9.. what was it again? <P>Yes what they have done to us is the most horrible thing that could ever possibly happen to a human soul, short of falling from the grace of God. <P>We all have realized, after we got to that wall and were hanging from it like you are.. , that half of the problem for our spouses, unhappiness was our own doing.. and that is a very hard thing to come to. At the time that most of us hit D day.. we had NO clue as to what hit us. Some of have taken our own sweet time in getting up from that fall. I'm guilty of that. I know what was wrong in my marriage, not because she told me.. she tried.. for years before that.. but I NEVER heard it. I had to hear it from myself.<P>My loss for the things that give me personal passion were gone.. I was in a emotionally depressed state and didn't even realize it. I wasn't appealing to myself anymore.. so how could I be appealing to her, emotionally, physically and spiritually.<P>Now I reap what I sowed and failed to take care of. The weeds in my lifes garden have overtaken me. They continue to choke the life out of me each day. UNTIL recently.. nearly 3 years after D day.. I have finally realized what it is I must do, for her to be honest with me, for her to trust me, for her to respect me, and for her to want to spend the rest of my life with me.<P>When I realized what she was missing from me.. and now that I'm starting to correct who I became.. I see the glimer of hope reflecting back at me through her eyes... no matter how cloudy they can be from day to day. When I recently saw, a ray of light from her spirit because of what I was doing for me.. I dared her to NOT fall in love with me when I'm done. I said it with the cockyness that she so longed for.. and the sweet grin that embraced the corner of her mouth told me I was headed in the right direction... <P>Why did she do the things she has done and continues to do to me, her and our kids? Only she will be able to come to light and admit it one day. I found out what half of that was.. now she just needs to find her half, and we both will finally know.<P>Not much advice.. right now.. Take some time out for yourself.. put the reasons on the back burner for a while and look at yourself first. Harsh? No ma'am. Loving and caring.. you bet.. take a few days and reflect on you.. <P>You've come to the right place.. we are ALWAYS here .. ALWAYS.. so you've already made some new friends that you can tell anything... Grab ahold of that wall now.. and try and find the top... You'll see.. have patience and take a breath.. for right now.. <P>This is your time.. let him have his.. and when you both find you.. there the other will be...<P>Semper Fi<P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

Jena,<P>I could have written your letter--in fact, I printed it out and was going to leave it on the keyboard so that when my husband comes home, he will see that "I am not crazy." (Someone else lives the same life that we do and the feelings are the same.)<P>But I guess that would be harassing him, huh? In his mind, he has done nothing wrong, and the dozens of women he linked up with were "just people" to talk to. (uh huh, I saw what they talked about mostly, I am not stupid) And like your husband, mine had at least one "special" one, in fact, the "love of his life" (he usually denies ever saying this, and when he does admit to it, he says he didn't mean it.) He met her in person and they had at least 3 weekends together at Motel 6. Is it something in the air in D.C.?<P>He denies doing anything wrong--he says we were planning to divorce (yes, because he met her, went out on a date or two, and then threatened to divorce me.)<P>I was beginning to think I was crazy.

Hi Jena,<P>In response to H2U's request here is line #9 from the August 2001 MB newsletter:<P>9. Just One Last Thing...<BR>by Steven W. Harley, M.S.<BR>============================================<P>Falling in love with someone other than your spouse is not caused by unmet needs in your marriage. It is caused by a failure to protect your own weaknesses."<P>**********************************************************<P>Really this is something to think about before we go and beat ourselves over the head. Now to focus in on how to help you and your H. Please read the info here. Give yourself time to digest it. Don't try to fix everything in one day. Be patient, pray, ask for a clear mind and a calm heart. <P>Will check in on you tomorrow. <P>Take Care and get some rest. <BR>L. <P>

Jena???<P>Where did you go?

Husband2you wrote:<P><B>Jena???<P>Where did you go?</B><P>:::: I'm right here ... digesting and trying to think a lot about what you guys said. I need to read all the books ... I've read many of the articles at the MB website - and I read <I>After the Affair</I> by Janis Abrahms Spring, which truly helped because I needed so much to know what my husband might be thinking since he wouldn't tell me, and that book presents both sides so well ... but I need to read <I>Surviving the Affair</I> and <I>His Needs/Her Needs</I>, etc.<P>I've also read all the basics here online ... I just wish my H would too .... I printed things out galore, hoping he'd take an interest. I did that last March when I first found out ... <P>Thank you, Orchid, Jim, and Bernzini for helping me feel there is someone who knows what I'm going through. I pray we all find our ways through all this ... back to the wonderful marriages we deserve. <P>Jim, what you said about that brickwall being around me really made me stop and think hard. What if he's right? I had to ask myself. What if the wall is not around my H but around me? Maybe it's there to protect me from past hurts he has nothing to do with? Maybe it's there due to a violent first marriage and an absent, alcoholic father before that? It was already there because I expect the worst?<P>In that case, it's not my H's job to bring me out .... <P>I always have blamed myself for when he did the online stuff the first time around, four years ago. I frequently became impatient back then with him saying he was going to do something and not carrying through with it, and I know handled trying to motivate him all wrong ... I waited until I was so exasperated before saying anything about it that it came out awful. I have five children - life is FULL. I became exhausted often doing things all by myself. I often felt I needed more help ... It's funny because now, since trying to word things the way our counselor suggested had little effect, I rarely say anything about how he puts off his jobs around the house at all. If I want the garage cleaned, I clean it, etc. In fact, since I felt the reason he needed online affairs was to escape me and my "nagging," and since he treated even my calmer ways as nagging also, I feel like I walk this tightrope and am constantly holding in my disappointment in what I feel to be his lack of thought for me and our life together. I'm so afraid of losing him that I try hard to not ask for <I>anything</I> for fear he'll leave for that fantasy world! Or leave me for good! I try very hard to be happy with whatever I get when I get it.<P>Sometimes I wonder why I ever cared all that much if our backyard was neglected or whatever. I'd be happy to live in a dung heap if that's how he wants to live if he'd just pay any attention to me, or make time for me.<P>Believe me; I know that simply expecting him to take all the "blame" for his betrayal and do all the work on our relationship would never work. I know I have just as much if not more "blame" in this whole situation, and I'm trying to discover ways to give him what he needs. <P>It just is so hard to keep trying to win someone's affection who seems oblivious to what pain I might feel, and who doesn't want to talk about it or deal with it anymore. Is it so wrong to wish he'd take as much interest in our friendship and marriage as I do? Is it so wrong to think I deserve some needs met too?<P>Last night I said something very clearly to him. I surprised myself because it's as if in my pain the bare essence finally came out of my mouth and he seemed to finally hear me. I said, "You are all I want or need," I began. "You are simply enough to make me happy. More than enough. When you have to work constantly (now our tables are turned and he's the one never home) I never think of trying to replace you with other men, or fill time with other men. You are irreplaceable, and I just look forward to you finally being here." That's when I said the sentence he seemed to understand and actually responded to without anger. I said, "I guess I still hurt because I feel I was not enough. Why am I not enough?"<BR>He wrapped his arms around me and told me I was ...<P>------------------<BR>Jena<BR>If you don't stand for <BR>something, you'll fall for <BR>anything<p>[This message has been edited by Jena (edited August 04, 2001).]

Jena,<P>Progress in small steps. See you can do it without reading everything. Your last paragraph was a lesson to us all. I really appreciated how and what you said to your H. I need to practice that myself. <P>A lot to learn and more to implement. Keep up the good work. <P>L. <BR>

Jena,<P>I have read through this rather long thread and had some thoughts for you to consider.<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I was busy going through an intensive, year long, work/school program that kept me gone from the house from dawn to late night, and he was out of a job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You also said that he thinks you are whiney and you tend to agree.<P>Now these two things stuck out to me so let me tell you what I think. I think your H was very lonely. He needed you to talk with and he needed to be able to be someone you admired. You mentinoed you have 5 children. So let me guess you are gone all day and late into the night for a year. Whatever time you had was probably spent with the children if they are still home.<P>Where did your H fit in? I suspect he felt he didn't fit. Plus he lost his job, no reason for you respect him there was there? So he turned to the cyber world where he could help and gain some respect. That is a very seductive combination, Jena. Everyone wants to be admired. <P>Why couldn't he talk with you or even by honest with you. Well, my guess is several reasons. Yeah, whiney is one. But he probably also realised you didn't need to be dealing with these things in the middle of everything else. He probably didn't want to hurt you, and further had probably convinced himself he was doing nothing wrong. Right. <P>You last post suggests that some of this may be the case because when you asked him if you were enough, the answer was that you were. <P>My guess you always were enough, if you had been there. But you were focused on other things. My guess is that he missed you more than you realize and he couldn't tell you that. My guess he was pretty lonely, but lied to protect himself and yes even you. Bad move but pretty typical.<P>Hope something I said helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>Wow, sorry to but in on Jena's post but that sounds like what my H is saying now. I don't get it. You know I would like to post this in a separate thread to you, if I may. I don't want to interfere on Jena's thread. <P>Jena, JL raised some important points to ponder. I have been here going on 8 months and still learn taking it in like a baby everyday. Got to go and work a bit. <P>Thanks,<BR>L.

Dear JL:<P>Thanks so much for your post. It agrees with much of my own theorizing when all of this first came down. I knew that even though H put up the brave front of becoming temporary house-husband so that I could better my career options and he could take his time finding the job that was right for him; it was still a blow, and he was in need of admiration and respect. He admitted that these were some things he received from his internet women right after we read the article on internet affairs on the MB site. He would never admit to lonliness, but he did say that simple adult conversation was something he got from these online women.<P>I of course wondered if he didn't feel admired and loved by me. One online woman actually attacked me by saying that I wasn't a good wife if he was doing this!<P>I always tell him he is my favorite person. And at the time I told him the only thing I did not admire about him was collecting women online to flirt with, and then lying to me about it. In fact I told him the lying part was the biggest deal to me of all. That if it was truly "nothing" he should be able to tell me all about it. <P>You said: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why couldn't he talk with you or even by honest with you. Well, my guess is several reasons. Yeah, whiney is one. But he probably also realised you didn't need to be dealing with these things in the middle of everything else. He probably didn't want to hurt you, and further had probably convinced himself he was doing nothing wrong. Right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He did said he knew that it would be a blow to me, and that was why he tried to hide it and lied when confronted. He said he didn't want me to "lose it" and fail what I'd been working so hard on. He did rationalize it while doing it, too, even after reading the article. He kept saying, every time I found out he'd broken his promise to stop yet again, that since he never intended to replace me, or meet anyone and have a physical affair, it was all right to do things online.<P>I couldn't help feeling, and I told him so, that I feared his progressing further and further away over time. He had never called people before, and he was doing that ... he'd never spoken of meeting before, and he was doing that. I was afraid that if the opportunity was there, and the gratification good enough, he might be willing to risk more and more. After reading many people's posts in like situations, it appears these fears aren't ungrounded!<P>Oh- and to briefly address the "whiny" issue! LOL I'm pretty good at the "I" messages - it's a crucial part of my job - My H uses the words "whiny" or "nagging" for anything he's not ready to deal with or listen to. LOL I guess I feared that people here might feel the same ...<P>You also said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My guess you always were enough, if you had been there. But you were focused on other things. My guess is that he missed you more than you realize and he couldn't tell you that. My guess he was pretty lonely, but lied to protect himself and yes even you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is what I want to believe more than anything. Perhaps our biggest problem is merely our lack of time together. And now the tables are turned. I'm the one at home, he's gone, and I'm having time to worry about what he did while he was home alone ... <P>Incidentally, what I quoted above reminded me of what happened when I first found out. My mother dropped by to find me red-eyed and unable to speak without crying. I hinted at what was happening without divulging the degree. Even just telling her he'd chatted with women was enough to get her to call him up and yell at him a few days later! I guess it started really bugging her. She actually accused him of being jealous of me and undermining my success! Needless to say I decided then that no one should know anything more after that. Part of me felt grateful, though, for what she did. I admit that.<P>Thank you JL. Everything you said helped.<BR> <BR>And Orchid! Butt on in anytime! I'm dying to see how this connected to your situation ... I'm going to go look for it.<P>Jena<P>[This message has been edited by Jena (edited August 05, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Jena (edited August 05, 2001).]

Jena,<P>I must say one other thing. I think you are safe in trusting him, or should I say developing a trust again. <BR>However, do you realize that you are in a pretty neat position???<P>You are one of the very few women, that has an H that understands about being home, not feeling appreciated, needing adult conversation, etc. <P>So make sure you talk with your H about this, we don't need to be hearing from him about his W, Jena, finding so other guy to invest her emotions in. Do we???<P>Seriously, view this situation as an advantage. I am sure you will indeed feel a bit like him. Talk with him about helping you, since he understands the dangers now. POJA with him and work with him on this. Become a team. No one can meet all of someone others needs, but being empathetic about a situation sure does help.<P>So take this bad situation, and turn it into something that will strengthen your marriage. You have a rather unique opportunity.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are one of the very few women, that has an H that understands about being home, not feeling appreciated, needing adult conversation, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right. He knows what it feels like, but handled it inappropriately. What's interesting is many of his OW's were lonely stay at home moms who felt unappreciated by their husbands! <P>Maybe, brought up in the right manner, this might be a catalyst for a conversation. Due to his sensitivity to the subject I'll have to leave out the opinion that I feel it is inappropriate, I guess, and offer understanding for how he felt. Perhaps we can both figure out ways to deal with the situation when it happens to either one of us again.<P>I'll try to think the best instead of the worst. Instead of fearing this Fall, when I'll be gone in daytime, and he will be home in the day until leaving for his swing shift . It might be hard, on such a schedule, for us to have the time we need together to keep our marriage nourished. But I could try to think positively that he won't return to how he dealt with my absence all Spring.<BR>Thanks JL!<P><BR>------------------<BR>Jena<BR>If you don't stand for <BR>something, you'll fall for <BR>anything<p>[This message has been edited by Jena (edited August 05, 2001).]

Jena,<P>I think if you approach this as a positive your H will appreciate it as well as open up further to you. You see both of you need to really keep the other from feeling neglected as you are working opposite shifts.<P>This doesn't have to be a death march type of thing, but rather a very enjoyable thing where the two of you brainstorm about how to keep the other happy. <P>So approach him with the concept that although it hurt a lot, it can and is a positive thing. He now has knowledge that few men have and he can help you because of it. Further, you can help him because of what you have learned.<P>Time to make lemonade out of lemons Jena.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Jena,<P>You have probably seen K post here as well as other places. As far as MB is concerned he is "older than dirt". <P>But perhaps you don't know his story. It is posted around here somewhere and I can try and find it if you are interested. But to make a sad story turned good, into something short, I will summarize, because he said something that I think is so important for you.<P>His W had an affair, ultimately she became pregnant with the OM's child. K of course had been dealing with the affair and had under the guidance of Steve Harley used Plan A, Plan B, you name it. Anyway, when it became clear that she was pregnant with OM's child, his response was something that you might really consider.<P>He viewed it as an <B>OPPORTUNITY</B> to show his W how much he loved her. Given the nature of the fog, even this approach did not produce immediate results with his W, but it has been a few years and he and W are raising Noah. <P>The key here is his choice of response. What could be considered one of the greatest trajedies of a marriage, a child conceived via the affair, was taken as an OPPORTUNITY.<P>I think that you need to consider this approach in your situation. Your H knows about things that most men don't. It is an opportunity for you two to share, to build, to appreciate what the other is going through. You have been in the grind he is now in. He has been in the situation you are now in. In a few months you will not have a lot of time together.<P>NOW is a very good time to take the "opportunity" to be open, honest, and build the connections and bonds that will tide you through the tough times and make the good times great.<P>After all is said in done, what has happened in your marriage will boil down to whether or not you take the opportunity to learn from this experience and grow a better marriage out of it.<P>Something to think about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you so much for guiding me to the light JL. Now to read read read as much as I can on this sight, especially how to deal with rage and dispair <I>reactions</I> and turn it all to some kind of positive <I>actions</I>!<P>I'll look for K's story. I hadn't come across it.<P>Thank you with all my heart,<P>Jena<P>

Jena,<P>Us "oldtimers" know where the skeletons are buried. Here is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000143.html" TARGET=_blank> K's Story </A>.<P>Just click on it. You will be impressed and you will also realize why he is such a big Harley fan. Most of his recovery occured before this board existed and with the guidance of Steve Harley.<P>But more importantly as you assess your role and the situation your H was placed in, perhaps you can come to realize that anger is not required. Than emotion is more properly used in the "fight or flight" situations. This isn't one of those. Just people doing the best they can, losing their way. Hard to deal with but I don't think your H was doing this to or to hurt you.<P>In any event, I hope K's story helps some.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear Jena,<P>Speaking of making lemons out of lemonade, perhaps in the fall, you can adjust your sleep schedule in shifts?<P>I was thinking what if you get everybody to bed as early as possible, including yourself, then wake up when your husband gets off of his swing shift to spend some mommie and daddy time together? Maybe 1 or 2 hours for conversation or affection or family business? Then you can go back to bed? Would that work for you? I'm sure it depends on how your husband handles his time off, whether he is still 'up' or immediately crashes when he gets home... Some people crash immediately, and others need time to unwind.<P>It's an adjustment, but well worth it to save your marriage and rebuild romantic love!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So, I immediately focused on the things I needed to, with Steve's help. No lovebusters. No demands, angry outbursts, disrespect. Imagine that task---when those behaviors have become a way of life, and THEN you're confronted with an affair. But the reality of the situation was that I was very successful in quickly getting control---I loved my wife, and I finally understood why she felt like she had. And what I had done to contribute to the affair. So I did my best to change that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for finding that post, JL. I'm amazed at how <B>K</B> handled everything! Pretty inspiring ... The love busters is what I have the hardest time with. I can do it for a long long time and then I get to feeling overly tired, over worked, stressed about finances, job interviews coming up, lonely and neglected, and oh yes - PMSy - and my taker feels like she gets nothing and up rears her ugly head. I try not to cry or demand, so I end up totally withdrawing. So hard!!!<P>BTDT ~ you said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was thinking what if you get everybody to bed as early as possible, including yourself, then wake up when your husband gets off of his swing shift to spend some mommie and daddy time together? Maybe 1 or 2 hours for conversation or affection or family business? Then you can go back to bed? Would that work for you? I'm sure it depends on how your husband handles his time off, whether he is still 'up' or immediately crashes when he gets home... Some people crash immediately, and others need time to unwind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unfortunately this plan has already backfired on me big time. I thought my H would be like me. When I worked late I needed to unwind. He's the total opposite. He can crash immediately. I go to bed with my youngest and seem to wake up when it's time for him to be home. Inner clock that I actually need to somehow untrain! He is so unresponsive to my being up and ready for him when he gets home that it's felt like huge rejection many many times. So- I guess I need to figure something else out.<P>He has the first day off in a while tomorrow ... and he's already made plans with my son for the day. I feel like, "gee! what about me!" You don't know hard it is to say nothing! They're going to Water Slides. I can't go. I have something wrong with the joint in my hip and I get pain if I'm on my feet very long, plus I have these stitches on my cheekbone from having a cyst removed ... can't get wet or in too much sun ... I'm left out of this outing.<P>We are going to a concert the next night. My first in years and years! I'm excited, but it's really his cup of tea, not mine. I don't like crowds that much. I'm braving this one to see my favorite musician ... and to be with H doing what I know he will love.<P>Thanks for the input. I'm still floundering and trying hard to find agreeable ways to have time with H. It doesn't seem to be him that misses it though. That's my EN ...<P>Jena <P>