I hate reading your posts, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.<P>Thank you.<P>You feel as my husband did, you tell me exactly what he felt, and I absolutely despise it.<P>That's why your posts hurt me so much to read, I finally realize that. It hurts so much, but somehow, someway I need to face what you have written and pretend those words are coming from my husband.<P>It hurts so much. I haven't cried in so long, and here I am bawling my eyes out. I feel like screaming and yelling and cursing you, but it's not your fault. I am mad at my husband for feeling like you...<P>I just keep thinking that he should have known better. He should have thought about ME, he should have cared enough about me that he would not have sex with OW. He should have thought about STD's and getting her pregnant. But he didn't, and it is so hard to accept that.<P>There are a few things that make me feel a little better. What do you think?<BR>-H said sex was "good" with OW, but he is not sexually attracted to her at all. He says he now knows that I am the only one that can given him an orgasm the way he really, really likes it. OW does not do it for him.<BR>-H says that he now realizes that he can never have what we had with any other woman and he wants to try and get that back, with me.<BR>-I have not talked to H explicitly about it, but I know he has no plans to be with OW in the future. I see her as a plaything, or a highschool friend that is going away when you graduate, you hate to say goodbye, but, oh well - have a good life. He has no desire to try and be with her when she moves to Colorado in January, and they never even attempted to make future plans together. It was a "fleeting love" he calls it, they knew it would never last.<P>I just hate reading your posts so much, but I know I somehow have to come to grips with the way my husband felt about OW. It kills me that he had actual feelings for SOMEONE ELSE. Especially since I was his first girlfriend/kiss/sex as he was for me. It hurts. How can I just accept that it was okay for him to feel that about another woman, WHY IS THAT OKAY??<P>Is your wife over the total devastation you spoke of, or is she still dealing with it slowly? How did she let go?

I know I represent a target for misdirected anger, and that is ok, so vent anytime you feel the need, my way, is part of my penance, and maybe does some good. I deliberately say exactly how I feel, behaved, etc. here, and do not try to make myself look good (or bad). I realize that by doing so I may give some of you insight to your ws, just as you all give me insight to my bs. Although this is hard, awful stuff, for the most part people are just messy humans, and do crappy stuff, but do not need (bs or ws) to be demonized. As bad as all this is, there are real monsters out there among us, psychopaths, of many stripes, we should save our real enmity for. (sorry I am reading a book on the fbi profilers, the case histories would give you nightmares, but I am interested in human behaviour, so I feel I need to know this stuff).<P>hbh...That's why your posts hurt me so much to read, I finally realize that. It hurts so much, but somehow, someway I need to face what you have written and pretend those words are coming from my husband.<P>snl...That is one of the reasons I write, I see what can only be termed bs fog too. It is all fog, this stuff is too hard to just be calm and rational about. I know many of you bs believe what the best about your ws, and become a little blind to the truth. I am an honorable, ethical man, who has done very little wrong in his life, and does the right thing most of the time, yet I for awhile became an adept, completely remorseless cunning liar, do not believe anything your ws says to you, without absolute verification, and uncompromising insistence on rules of protection. OTOH, absolutely do not critize, condemn, belittle your ws for trying to be honest and truthful, no matter how po'd you are. He will stop, I did. I tried and needed to talk to my w about the ow, and my feelings etc. she absolutely would not tolerate it, and LB all over the place. She refused to understand I could not stop until I understood what was happening to me, and I needed to tell her this stuff so we could understand what happened to us. It has taken almost 5 months, but she is finally listening, sorta.<P>hbh...It hurts so much. I haven't cried in so long, and here I am bawling my eyes out. I feel like screaming and yelling and cursing you, but it's not your fault. I am mad at my husband for feeling like you...<P>snl...Is ok, my wife has done plenty of screaming and yelling and cursing. I really think most of the ws have a certain understanding and tolerance for this, the problem is when it becomes chronic, you get stuck in it, start abusing us with it. I personally don't consider occassional episodes of this LB, I think ws who do, or act like they do, are marginal spouses allready. There is a fine line between LB, and being an emotional doormat. I see no reason for bs to be required to have no emotions. What my wife finally started doing was saying she was sorry after one of these, and that is enuf for me. I tell her is ok, I understand, and don't expect this to go away anytime soon.<P>hbh...I just keep thinking that he should have known better. He should have thought about ME, he should have cared enough about me that he would not have sex with OW. He should have thought about STD's and getting her pregnant. But he didn't, and it is so hard to accept that.<P>snl...She says the same to me, is why I wrote the other post, to help people understand the answer to that. There is one slight, but important difference for me. I knew early on (I am ex-military, and continguency planning is a mindset), that I needed to address the issue of intercourse, for 3 reasons. Std, pregnancy, and some modicum of morality. When ow and I contemplated the morality of how much affection/intimacy could friends have (and I know this is making you scream again), was uncharted territory, we discussed could they kiss? How could they kiss? Could they touch, hold hands, see each other unclothed (afterall nudists do), and so forth. I said I don't really know, but I was sure of one absolute boundary, no intercourse, only married people can do that. So when we finally were together, we did not, but it was a close thing, if either of us had voiced that desire, I am not sure what might have happened, but neither of us did. I think I would not have, I had made that committment (as the pursuer) to her, and she said she would trust me, cause she wasn't sure she could trust herself under that kind of emotional pressure. However, my wife does not believe me, no reason why she should, she believed (and desperately wanted it to be true, despite evidence to the contrary), I had never seen her too, but I lied.<P>hbh...-H said sex was "good" with OW, but he is not sexually attracted to her at all. He says he now knows that I am the only one that can given him an orgasm the way he really, really likes it. OW does not do it for him.<P>snl...He is most likely lieing.<P>hbh...-H says that he now realizes that he can never have what we had with any other woman and he wants to try and get that back, with me.<P>snl....I hope that is true, only you can tell for sure, but don't lie to yourself.<P>hbh...-I have not talked to H explicitly about it, but I know he has no plans to be with OW in the future. I see her as a plaything, or a highschool friend that is going away when you graduate, you hate to say goodbye, but, oh well - have a good life. He has no desire to try and be with her when she moves to Colorado in January, and they never even attempted to make future plans together. It was a "fleeting love" he calls it, they knew it would never last.<P>snl....Keep a very close eye on your husband. If he does not enthusiastically affair proof your marriage along the lines of rule of protection, then don't believe anything he says.<P>hbh...I just hate reading your posts so much, but I know I somehow have to come to grips with the way my husband felt about OW. It kills me that he had actual feelings for SOMEONE ELSE. Especially since I was his first girlfriend/kiss/sex as he was for me. <P>snl...My wife and I were the first for both of us too. I think having feelings for another hurts her more than anything else, she calls herself the paperwife now, I asked her to stop, it makes me feel lower than dirt. She isn't being mean, is just so sad to hear her say that. I deserve it for some of my musings on what is marriage exactly, and that maybe people (like us) are civily married, but never really bonded, yada yada yada. Sometimes my musings can make me a big jerk, even the ow thinks I am on this score, I asked terry tonight to put her rings back on, she said why, paperwives don't deserve rings. I told her she is my wife, and I was mistaken. We may or may not make it, but until we do you are my wife.<P>hbh....It hurts. How can I just accept that it was okay for him to feel that about another woman, WHY IS THAT OKAY??<P>snl....Accepting does not mean it is ok, this is not a right or wrong issue, it is a "just is" issue. The more you don't accept whatever truth lies in your husbands heart, the less chance you have to deal with it. He may love her forever, making him deny it to avoid your negative reactions just means you will have emotional secrets between you. I suggest you encourage him to fully discuss his feelings and respond as you would to a friend. That is hard, but in so doing you earn his trust as a safe non-judgemental place, and help him work out his feelings instead of burying them. This is important. Don't have to do it all at once, do it as you can tolerate it, but don't avoid it alltogether. It is not the end of the world. IMO the way one approaches this is that the old marriage is dead, and you are choosing each other, remarrying, and making a new and better life. Just as you would in real life if you met him after another relationship, he is choosing you, don't stay stuck in the past, lamenting what was nothing but a picture anyways, the notion that you and he had never loved others. That is not particularly important, but the future is very important. Your choice, live in the past where you can change nothing, or live in the future where you can change everything.<P>hbh...Is your wife over the total devastation you spoke of, or is she still dealing with it slowly? How did she let go? <P>snl...No she is not. She is fine one minute, and bursts into tears the next. Is holding my hand one minute, and hates my guts (and wants a divorce) the next. But it is getting better day by day, she actually slept all night for the first time in months. Is a big jarring, is like she is 2 women, one changing and trying hard to apply MB and find connections with me (something she has rarely done before, and never with this intensity), and another who is hard, mean, and wants to kill something. She says sorry after these episodes, I just tell her is ok, will take a long time. I am leaveing this up to her, I don't try to minimize, explain, escape, complain.....I just tell her I just listen, touch her arm, and let her decide what she wants. She has not let go, she is coping by focusing all her hate on the ow, it is kinda scarey actually, and worries me a little. I am every bit, maybe even the most, guilty, I do not want to be let off the hook by allowing her to demonize the ow, and see me as the seduced foggy ws. So I feel a need to remind her of this, and I do. She is still a little fearful though, I have not told her all the secrets yet, although she knows the worst of it now. But she wants details, I have resisted, asking her if she is sure of that, and discussing it with Jennifer (harley), she torments herself with visions of me and ow, says is on her mind constantly, this is without details. But I am committed to radical honesty, if she wants to know, details and emotions, I will tell her, I hope she doesn't. If you want to know more about her, she posts her, her name is thinker. She feels isolated and alone, no one to talk to, or understand. I suggested maybe ask some of you, she has mixed feelings about the reality of cyber people (although she has posted some). We have read the saa book, and also just bought the after the affair, I want her to know she is not alone, and what she feels is normal. I have been her confidant (even if she kept me at a distance) and the one she has looked to to figure out stuff for 28 years (even if she gave me a lot of grief, if she did not like how I figured stuff often), and now she does not trust me, is a hard place for her to be.<P>Good luck with your husband. If I had to give real advice, I can only tell you what I have done. That being a committment to radical honesty (including emotional), that means my wife knows I love the ow, and that she will always be a part of who I am now. That does not mean I can't love my wife too, and I have told her (honestly) I will give our marriage the same focus and effort I did the A. First by seperateing from the ow, and second by making myself emotionally vulnerable to her again (something I had given up on, and had no intention of ever doing again). You cannot do this stuff with out emotional honesty, but that means she has to learn to let me be honest, something that is very very hard for her to do. The other thing I have done is give this all up to God. I miss the ow alot, but I had to let her go (and she me), and whatever will be will be in some unknown future, what we had is gone, was never meant to be, could not be, not over the bodies of our spouses. Likewise I open up my closed heart to my wife, it scares the heck out of me to take that risk, for many reasons, but I will do it, and if it is to be it will be. I don't know who I am anymore, where I belong, or what the future should be like. But I am content now I know the path to walk, emotional honesty, ethical behaviour, open heart, and trust in God. The truth will set you free, and what doesn't kill you will make you stronger.<P>

SnL<BR>What book are you reading on FBI profiling? This is a great interest of mine--my husband and I share a passion for criminal investigation, seems like that's the only passion we share. <P>sorry to step on your thread

Thank you. I think I understand, but I still don't like it.<P>The stuff I tell you that he says, he just tells me. When we are alone, when we are sharing our feelings. I don't ask and he responds, he just spills his guts. I know SO much about him and that fu**ing bi*ch. I have always known, and I hate it. <P>The stuff he tells me, the way he feels, it makes me sick to hear it. <P>I mean, either he really means these things and feels like he can share them with me, or he is just a cruel, cruel human being who likes to hurt me.<P>He doesn't sugarcoat things to make me feel better. I think he should sometimes, but HE DOESN'T. He just tells me the way it is and how he feels, even if it totally anhilates me. Oh, he holds me close and hugs me and I can feel how upset he is as he tells me these things, but he still tells me...<P>OW is truly disgusting, I mean he talks about her and things she did that just totally turned him off and made him not be attracted to her. I do believe him, because he also tells me the good stuff about her. No sugarcoating.<P>We were always each other's best friends. For the past 8 years, we truly were. I know he feels like he can confide in me with these things, but it just HURTS SO DAMN MUCH to hear it.<P>In fact, the very first time I went to plan B, you know what made him the maddest? That I WAS NOT THERE WHEN HE NEEDED ME!! Because HE wanted to talk and I wouldn't listen. Can you believe it? <P>I definately was NOT hearing these things while he was actually WITH OW, it happened once he started working on our marriage again and talking about us getting back together. I heard it before and I heard it after, but nothing in between... Which, I think can only be expected.<P>I can completely understand the pain your wife is in. <P>

Berzini, Journey into Darkness, by John Douglas, got it at B&N clearance $5 (was $25). I am not um..... fascinated by psychopaths, I hate them, want to kill them, they are the true monsters, the evil among us. I have met a couple sociopaths, scarey scarey people, they seem so normal, often personable, but are without any conscience at all, and that is just a sociopath. But they are not usually dangerous, just a pain to know, even when you realize they are trouble, somehow you feel chartitable toward them, want to help them. I think some of the bs here are married to sociopaths. Psychopaths of course are truly dangerous, and I feel some kind of need to have at least an idea about them. There are plenty of them too, and chances are one will cross your path sooner or later. The scarey thing is both sociopaths, and psychopaths do marry and have children as well. But their days are numbered as science zeros in on them, and they won't be able to hide. I am also interested in the toll it takes on the people who hunt down the psychopaths. These people (and their families) pay a huge price for keeping us safe, they need our understanding, and our support.

hbh, don't have anything useful to say, sorry you having a rough nite. I have to tell you your H sounds very much into himself, there are right ways and wrong ways to share distressing info with someone. It doesn't sound like he tries to protect you much in this regard. In fact sounds like he may enjoy telling you. As for his lateness, is not a good sign, if he will not do protection, is pretty much cause he is still connected to ow, I did a few similar things, and it was all about ow, it always is. I think anyone who won't do protection should be plan b'd. My wife waited 5 months, she wanted me to leave, I wouldn't, she was gonna leave, I told her maybe 4 times was over, or almost over. I was ending it, just was taking me a while. Finally kinda came to a head when ow called her and begged her not to tell her husband. My w kinda suggested she not contact me anymore, and she hasn't, but w still is gonna tell him (figures is right thing to do) but ow does get some time to do it herself.

I am not fascinated by sick people, either--I am interested only in the processes of catching them. After they are caught, then I just hope that they are warehoused humanely so that they cannot harm other people.<P>There are evil people in the world, some that will never change. Regardless of how they become evil, there is not hope to change them unless they themselves change. People that have little capacity to feel guilty for harming others will not change. They cannot recognize that harming others is wrong.<P>I made it all the way through homocide investigation then I refused my internship because I found it unfathomable that people could be so horrible to one another (this was after I saw my first autopsy.)<P>I am older now, I think I can handle it. Going back to school.