Hi Everyone:<P>Someone gave this link to another website and I found an interesting quote from Dr. Shirley Glass, Ph. D. in an article called <A HREF="http://www.smartmarriage.com/glass.html" TARGET=_blank> "Shattered Vows: Getting Beyond Betrayal"</A> I have never heard discussed before. As several of us here are dealing with having difficulty showing appreciation to our WH, I was wondering what some of the MB reactions would be. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Sometimes there is an over-functioning spouse and an under-functioning spouse. One partner takes on a lot of responsibility—and then resents it. The more a person puts energy into something and tries to work on it, the more committed to the relationship that person is. The other partner, who is only semi-involved in the relationship, is freer to get involved in an affair, because they’re not as connected to the marriage. <BR> This is interesting because the popular notion is that the person who has the affair wasn’t getting enough at home. The reality is that they weren’t giving enough at home. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have felt this for a long time...I was doing everything to hold the marriage and the household together...WH basically worked and watched TV...no participation in family life...he was just missing in action in the marriage.<BR>Then he has an affair and says it's my fault...that I don't make him feel like OW. **ll, when did I have time...and when I did have time I was constantly begging for attention and he basically would just get angry and sulk. I felt that I couldn't keep giving and getting so little in return.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR> In rebuilding that relationship, more equity has to be created. The issue isn’t what can the betrayed spouse do to make the partner happy—it’s what can the unfaithful spouse do to make their partner happy.......I have observed that when you compare who does more, who is more understanding, who is more romantic, who enjoys sex more—the affair is almost always more equitable than the marriage. Usually, the person was giving more—more time, more attention, more compliments—in the affair than in the marriage. If they can come back and invest in the marriage what they were doing in the affair, then they’ll feel more. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree...if WH had invested the time and attention on me he has invested on OW there would never have been any need to leave.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>....There is some research showing that people are more satisfied in equitable relationships. When relationships are not equitable, even the over-benefitted partners are not as satisfied as those in equitable relationships. Certainly the under-benefited partners are not satisfied.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If I'm reading this right then the key is for the over doing spouse to need to back off and expect more participation by the WH in the marriage instead of trying to do everything themselves. <P>Anybody got opinions on this? Late in this business I am having doubts about whether I want this marriage to survive at all...if the differences between us are so great that we are better off to just go our separate ways. I've always found myself getting antsy when the potential for him to come home or break up with OW comes up...unsure of whether it was really what I want. The closer it gets the more unsure I am.<P>It's not that MB hasn't worked...I just not sure that WH is capable of changing enough to make things work in the long run. Scary...<P>Faye<P> <P> <P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited August 04, 2001).]

I agree with the article you posted. For years, my H went to work and came home whenever he felt like it. In the meantime, I took care of the kids, went to the doctor's appts, arranged playdates, provided our social life,worked took care of the house ....and he just complained if things weren't exactly right. <P>Then he has his affairs and justifies them by attacking our relationship. In the past three years he has been gone for most of the year....on assignments, in training or flying. I have been working full time and struggling to keep this active family going. Now he is in this big affair....of course, it is all my fault. She satisfies his needs....I am so tired of hearing that. Now he is trying to make himself out to be a martyr...people just don't know what I have had to put up with.....how disgusting. After 4 months of this....I am tired of listening to it. Time to let him go. Life has to be better....just wish I could get there quicker.

Buffy,<P>This interview is awesome!!!! I have been reading it for over 40 minutes and still going. This is definitely a keeper for me. <P>Thanks for bringing it up. I can really relate to the info here. Coupled with what I have learned at MB a whole lot more is starting to make sense. <P>I would like to start another post to direct people to your thread here. I don't think many realize what important and helpful info you have posted here. <P>Again thanks sooo much,<BR>L.<P>ps: I am even thinking of sending this to my H.

Up..... don't want to bury this one!!!<P><BR>L.<BR>

This scenario fits my H and I to a T. I read through the article briefly, but couldn't see any advice on what the BS can do about this situation while the WS is with the OP. Any suggestions what we can do? Would starting to ask them to be more involved by expecting more of them while they are in the A make any sence?

Yep - this fits my experience to a tee. I gave and gave and gave and my wife put very little effort into our marriage.<P>Now, what does this say about Plan A?<P>WAT

This article and quote have been introduced here at MBers in the past. I myself whole heartedly agree. This was exactly the kind of situation that had developed in my own marriage.<P>This is again, another reason why I am so vocal about spending a very limited time in Plan A. If you have had a marriage and a spouse like the one described in the article, Plan A is not a change, it's more of the same and to more of an extreme. It does little to nothing to help change the dynamics in the marriage for this is what was happening in the marriage all along.<P>That is why when the BS in these types of marriages gets strong and uses tough love/Plan B the WS sits up and takes notice and can come to realize that BS isn't just going to keep on giving forever (I picture the energizer bunny at this point )no matter what WS dishes out and no matter how long WS wants to keep "taking".To survive the long haul things must be equitable between spouses. That is not to say that at times one doesn't give more than the other, but just that it needs to come close to being equal in the big picture. I always ask.....if you weren't a horrible spouse to begin with, how much do you really have to change and prove in Plan A and how long can you go on in Plan A before doing so just makes you appear(to WS) like you will tolerate anything? Especially when you are asking yourself "Gee it should have been ME who had the affair" if you consider who's needs weren't getting met in the first place. The ramifications of prolonged Plan A really needs to be seriously thought about in the types of situation this article talks about.

Ok, so it seems alot of us can relate to this post. Maybe thats why plan a comes so easy to some of us. I remember early in out relationship it wasnt like this, but it was because I was unsure of the relationship and he was trying to get me to marry him.<P>But whats the practical advice for changing these dynamics? Somehow I dont think saying... OK I'm done you plan a me now will get the desired results. And I do see that he is wounded from the affair and maybe needs some time and care... although so do I! And yes, it ticks me off that his realtionship with OW was maybe more equal.<P>I have heard other wayword spouses say that they really started healing when they began to give to their partners. But how do you convince him that that is what he should do? And is it more about controling again? I just cant get a grip on how to change this and support him and not be conrolling all at the same time.<BR>Lora

Good question Lora! You know, through all of what H and I have been through, I have come to realize that for my H there was no way to make him realize that he need to give more. There is no way for me to make him see that. My H had to "see" that on his own. I was very fortunate that my H went ahead with some individual counseling, although he didn't go for very long (6-8 sessions), I believe that his C helped him to "see" it.<P>My own counselor helped me to help H "see" it by changing what I did. I pulled back a lot and just stopped doing everything. That was very hard for me, as I was compulsive about getting things done and getting them done how I thought they should be done. If you notice, that kind of drive that I had, can been seen in and of itself as "controlling". H didn't do more and didn't give more because I often expressed that it wasn't done to my liking or to my expectation and that made him feel as though I was trying to 'control" how he did things and that when he did do them, I didn't appreciate it and that it wasn't good enough. So, he just stopped doing and giving because he didn't get any positive reinforcement when he did put out the effort. I had to let go of the control and let him do things the way he wanted and be happy that he put forth the effort and keep my mouth shut. Very hard to do and I'm still working on it!!! Controlling in the way I just described also serves to put us in the "mother" role and our H's don't need another mother. As my H says, he needs a "girlfriend", he NEEDS me to be his girlfriend,just like I was when we were dating. I have found that when I loosen up a bit and just let him do and give they way he sees fit, he is happier and feels more appreciated and WANTS to keep giving. Now, if I could just learn to keep my big mouth shut, when he doesn't do it the way I would do it, we'd be living in bliss! LOL <P>So Plan A, as it should be, is about changing ourselves. It doesn't mean being a doormat and tolerating mean and nasty emotionally abusive behavior(the affair). It means becoming strong individuals who realize that a marriage must be BOTH give AND take and appreciating our WS's efforts at doing and pleasing even when they don't do and give the way we would. THAT is a very difficult behavior to change, at least it has been for me, but it is primarily that change that has made for a much more satisfying marriage for both H and I.

Good thoughts Mthrrhbard,<P>I think that is probably what happened in my marriage also. My H never felt appreciated....but he never showed it for me either. So we were at a stalemate.<P>Well, he has found it in OW for the present. Wish it had ended differently....but I was in supermode, just trying to keep ahead of life. Oh well.

CAN ANYONE ELSE RELATE TO THIS?<P>My H was always the taker except for the money part. His own mother said that that is the only way he knows how to give. He worked and worked and I resented it. And I think he resented it too, after awhile, thinking it was the only reason I wanted him around.<P>My plan B is waiting for him, on his desk right now. I wish I had thought about this sooner but I have added a little note about this in the plan B letter, something to talk about should he give her up.<BR>

I haven't read the interview yet, but from the quotes and your posts, I am in the ring...<P>I am also very close to there...I have lately been assured by my H that there is NO WAY that I can change...I'm thinking what do you mean...I even told him not to get into my head and tell me what I am capable and not capable of...<P>Today I was wondering...what if it is he that cannot change? By telling me he doesn't want to be married, never wanted to be married he is telling me he never really committed to our marriage...why do I keep fighting? holding on? That is what I ahve been doing our whole marriage...fighting...holding on...wishing he would be there for me...knowing in my heart of hearts that he didn't love me the same way that I loved him...<P>That he's right...he's right...he's right...he isn't good for me, for our family...he could be...the possibilities are there, but if he doesn't change his thinking we will keep on repeating this pattern forever...<P>And I am tired...I put a lot of energy into our Vegas weekend and when he walked out the door last night and said he'd be back early in the a.m. for church...my heard squeezed...A whole week of sleeping next to him, dancing with him, being intimate with him and we come back and it's 'back to business?'<P>Sorry to get off on a tangent...I am off to read the link...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

I've often pointed others to this same article.<P>I love this article . <B>It saved my life. </B> I swear I thought I'd rather die than have to be told one more time that I needed to PLAN A HARDER if I wanted my marriage to survive.<P>At one point, while on these boards, someone told me that if I kept on with my "pissy attitude" then I could just kiss my marriage goodbye, because I wasn't doing my fair share of the rebuilding and that I needed to create a safe environment for my WH....<P>...and, I remember being appalled and thinking, "A safe environment for my WS????? !!!!!!" What does H need to feel safe from? My healthy, home-cooked meals? My clean, pressed and starched laundry? My taking care of the children? My clean, wholesome, attractive body? My willingness to participate and enjoy sex with him? My willingness to allow him to golf, go out with friends, play softball, tennis, etc. etc. etc.? OH MY!, YES, I'M A FREAKY, SCARY WIFE...RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, DEAR HUSBAND!<P>I didn't need a marriage counselor, a stack of self-help books, or this site for ME to realize/understand that I WAS GIVING TOO MUCH ALREADY....to the point where I almost lost *me* during my 20 year marriage. To the point where I honestly, to this day, believe my H's affair is very much my fault: I allowed him to do whatever he pleased-- and he took full advantage of it. He walked all over me and we both smiled while he was doing it: he-- because he was *getting away with it*, and I-- because I was *none the wiser* and thought I had the fairy-tale marriage.<P>Upon first finding out of my H's A, I felt *invisible*-- for who was *I* if I wasn't Mrs. X ??? What was I supposed to do? Where would I go? Who was I supposed to love and care for? What happened...how did I fail? What did I do wrong? Where did I fail?<P>I had loved to the best of my ability. I nurtured and cared for my family to the very best of my ability. I was there for my H-- body and soul. I believe that with every fiber of my being-- and NO ONE can convince me otherwise.<P>Finally, I came to accept the following: <B>MY H WAS NOT UNFAITHFUL BECAUSE OF WHO I AM, BUT BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS.</B><P>Today, I do less of everything. Heck, for the first year (YES, year!!) of my personal recovery I did nothing-- MAJOR MELTDOWN. I didn't clean, I didn't do laundry, I didn't cook. I got myself a fulltime job. I delved into my new job. I reinvented myself...or so I thought.<P>Almost two full years later, I'm still searching. Searching for answers...searching for hope...searching for meaning to my life...searching for the *real* Marie.<P>Peace, ~Marie <P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20

Okay, I am sitting here looking at my filthy house. . .I spent the day yesterday, Sunday, working. My husband had the day off. He got out of bed, and went straight to the couch, turned on the tv. . .and then didn't budge for the rest of the day. <P>I came home on my lunch break and snuggled up to him on the couch and petted his chest, tried to kiss him, even as funky as he smelled. He didn't touch me, he was too busy watching the history channel.<P>I came home at three and he said "We don't have any groceries. . .and could you take my car, cause I need you to gas it up."<P>I am laying on the bed when he says this, kinda tired from work. I tease him "I'll gas up your car if you do me." He says "Nah, I am right in the middle of a video game."<P>I came home at 630 with food, no gas because the one gas station on post was closed, and he proceeded to eat half a package of oreos, some deli meat right out of the package, all of the of the cottage cheese I got for a recipe, and drink four cans of rootbeer ("I haven't eaten all day because there wasn't any food in the house.") and continue to lay on the couch. I feel bad because his gas tank is on empty. I leave my car in his parking spot for him in the morning. I take his car and clean it out, dump the kazillion cigarette butts and bring in all the dirty pt cloths that have been on the floor of the car for the last week.<P>I get ready to go out for a run and my little son begs me "Please mommy, don't leave me here. I'm lonely and there's nothing to do here!" My husband just looks at us--I really need to run. Husband says "I'll take you to do something tomorrow, ok?" Kid cries, so I load the kid up and we go play video games and drink a bunch of soda. Husband is laying on the couch watching "Bloodsport" for the five millionth time in his life.<P>Nine PM--I really have to go run, so I take the kid back. Husband is still on the couch. The rootbeer cans are lining up on the coffee table. I go out to run, come back at 10 PM. Husband is on the bed. Fully dressed, laying on top of the bed, right in the middle. I'm like "Uh, I would like to go to bed, too. . ." He says, "Oh, yeah."<P>He gets under the cover, rolls over to face the wall, and starts snoring. I am really ticked off now.<P>Finally I say "Did I do something wrong again?"<P>He says "Well, you were acting so pissy all day, I didn't want to fight."<P>I say "I was acting pissy maybe (I don't think I was--I didn't say a single hostile word to him) because you were blowing me off."<P>He says "Blowing you off?! Hell, I work all week, I am tired and I need a day off! Jeez, what do you expect?!"<P>I could say here: "Yeah, well, I work too."<BR>or<BR>"You could have thrown in a load of clothes here and there"<BR>or<BR>"You couldn't take the kid to the park today?"<BR>or<BR>"You drove two hours to meet that ugly old woman at Motel 6 so you could f*** her, but you can't spend ten minutes just talking to me, huh?"<P>No, if I said any of these things, it would start a fight so I stifled it.<P>My husband is the WS. He said he had an affair because he didn't think I loved him or paid enough attention to him.

Hi Marie,<P>It's because of posts like the one you just wrote let me know the reason why I am still here. Thank you! ( I also saw your "link" post over on the recovery board and laughed harder than I have in a long time! Thanks for the smile.)<P><BR>Realizing this....Quote "Finally, I came to accept the following: MY H WAS NOT UNFAITHFUL BECAUSE OF WHO I AM, BUT BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS." has helped me immensely in the personal recovery of the damage that was done to my soul. Just wanted to let you know that others are still searching too <P>

Bernzini, this is ridiculous, your husband (assuming your portrayal is accurate) needs a serious kick in the a**. This has nothing to do with marital harmony, or deep philosophy, this is just plain rude, controlling (as in passive/aggressive) behaviour, and until you hold him accountable, I doubt anything will change. I guess you have to decide how bad you want to be married (meaning how much crap will you endure, not to mention lack of effort in reconcilliation). But for starters, I'd stop doing anything for him, and do the bare minimum until he is willing to start reading MB type stuff, and taking positive steps showing he really does value you and wants to be married.

Oh, it's accurate alright--it's gotten to be pretty humorous actually. Even his mom agrees that he's a spoiled brat--but she only says that to me. To him, well, let's just say that at 38, he is still coddled and fussed over. I wonder how he got that way, hmmmmm, let me guess.<P>I think it's funny that she says she hoped he would married an oriental woman who would follow him around and pick up after him and wait on him. All the oriental women I know are hard chargin girls that don't take any crap, so he would be out of luck there.<P>Well, Sad and Lonely, I married him, I have a child by him, even after all, I can't just walk away from this marriage. Call me weak, I don't know. It's just now, I am doing everything that I can to make myself a good person, and if he wants to go along for the ride (as long as he doesn't cheat again--he was still playing with girls on the pc up until a few weeks ago) then I will hold on. Maybe one day he will get the point. I believe in marriage, and until he divorces me, as he threatens to at least once a month, then I will stay married to him.

I really don't think that I have an extreme case here, do I?

Yeah, I think maybe you might have an extreme case. Tell me, how do you know you are married anyways? I have asked this alot in the past, and won't post another treatsie, but one can make the argument that if a relationship doesn't meet the standards of a functional marriage, it in fact is not a marriage. I personally don't believe a piece of paper means anything at all, I think it is what is in the hearts BOTH hearts that makes you married, and it only takes one to make a lie of the marriage. However, when one spouse feels like you do (to your credit) the other is empowered to do.... well....... nothing if they so desire, and sadly many do just that......nothing. So what do we call it if it is not marriage? Well we do have a word for it, indentured servant, a form of slavery. But what do I know, I am just a moose worm infested ws. Good luck on your strategy, btw did you get my response re the fbi book.