We've had two interesting conversations since our return...<P>The last one blew me away...He reached back 14 years to before we were engaged... he said he didn't know me. That he has told me everything about himself, but I have not told him about me...<I> How could he be compassionate towards me when he didn't know me?, he said. </I><P>He's right...but then he never asked. (He was surprised at this...but really he talked, I listened.)<P>Now as to why I didn't talk. When I was 10 my mother left my dad for someone else. It wasn't a pretty time. Step-dad was a raging alcoholic. He died 4 years later at age 32! of cirrhosis of the liver....He started my 'programming' that I was overweight...It was a very ugly time...little money...welfare...the push-me/pull-you syndrome of divorce...new adults in my life...some of them not very nice...I was painfully shy...low self-esteem...you know the beginning of adolescence....<P>It got ugly the last year...mom tried to leave him...it got violent...I have a vivid memory of being in the car w/ Mom and siblings and him pointing a gun at us...I remember Mom trying to commit suicide & me finding her drunk & telling me she had taken pills...I remember running and running for help...<P>We finally moved to UP of MI w/ her sister...and w/in months she found someone new...(stepdad died a couple months after we left). We moved to his house and what do you know...he was an alcoholic too...even way more violent...mostly verbal...ugly...ugly...ugly.<P>He continued my 'programming' that I was fat, ugly, worthless. I remember him telling my younger sisters somedays that I was 'forbidden' they could not talk to me that day. I existed in that house for 4 years until I escaped to college....the only thing I had was my brain. I got really good grades and did a lot of extracurricular stuff plus worked 2 part time jobs (who wanted to be home?)...<P>So I was smart...and because of my programming I didn't feel anybody would ever be interested in me...so believe it or not I did not date...there was a guy towards the end of HS, but we played the "just friends" game...even though I had deep feelings for him. Our 'friendship' ended a couple years into college...during which he sent me songs, poems, beautiful cards, stuffed animals...but we were 'just friends.' <P>So...I left college w/no relationships. I lived in a co-ed dorm and became everyone's 'sister.' I baked cookies, helped them study, listened to their girlfriend troubles....but that's it.<P>Enter my H. I actually met him on the first day of my first job out of college. We didn't get together until months after that...but he acted interested...he left a note on my truck...came to my apt...<P>Then was the infamous Monday night football game....my roommate & I hosted Monday night parties...and the first one he came to...let's just say he left really late...<P>He was my first real kiss...my first real everything...<P><B>and today he told me he doesn't believe me...that he doesn't think someone could get through HS and college and have no relationships...have no sex....</B><P>What does this mean? anything? nothing? I tried to tell him a few things. I've pondered what to do...write it out...my personal history? all the gory details? Would he feel bonded to me then? compassionate towards me?<P>Just my thoughts,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Hi Cali,<P>Wow talk about traumatic childhood. You are a survivor. <P>No virgins in high school and college? <BR>While that might not be the norm, it is a possibility. <P>OK, I took out my story because.....well I was embaressed. You all know way more about me than even my parents!!!! LOL. Maybe I should change my name to Mrs. Prude?!?!?!?<P>I still believe that when young it is important to save one's self for their mate. <P>L. <p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 06, 2001).]

I'd say his asking is a good sign, just tell him, but I would suggest not making it a speech, just a bit, then let him ask more, see where it goes. Asking someone about themself is a good thing, is about you, if he wants to know more about you, that means he is thinking about you, I guess that is good. If he sounds incredulous, be accepting, hey, it is a little strange. I was a 22 yo virgin male in the 70's, and ex-military, I would expect that to be viewed as unusual. But tell him if your veracity is an issue, you are willing to take a polygraph

Dear Cali,<BR>It sounds like he's unwilling to believe you because of his own history. I think it would help him understand a side of you that he has not known if you told him all the gory details.<P>Don't forget about Harley's policy of radical honesty about our past... For me, it helps me to understand my mate's current ways when I understand what he went through growing up. What we have gone through shapes our outlook on life and our ways of thinking. I believe it is important to know how one's values have been programmed, if you are going to get to really know the person.<P>Perhaps knowing how your self-esteem was verbally attacked as a child would help him to put some pieces together about your personality today. I was also called names regarding my weight and it is tough to get rid of the negative self-image--actually impossible! When I was running marathons and half-marathons and in the best shape of my life I still viewed myself as overweight and there was no way that was true?!!! Because no matter what we look like, we still think we are what they said we are--even if we are not. Bottom line: Your father was wrong.<P>Maybe the next time you guys have an opportunity to sit down and talk rationally, you could bring all of it up and explain to him WHY you never felt attractive and that is what kept you away from boys. Am I right? I'm sure this will help him understand you better, since he's interested. He challenged you in a very insensitive way, but he needs to know what you endured, IMHO. Tell him!

Cali,<P>I'd go with the principle of radical honesty. On the face of it because of today's day and age (you know the P word), it's difficult to believe that somebody remained a virgin for as long as you did. However, if you understand even a little of what's happened to you, my heart melts.<P>If you explain the context to your H, then if he has the slightest bit of compassion and love for you, he will fold. If it was me, I'd be on the floor in front of you, holding you and wanting to protect you. That sure awakens the Knight in me :-)<P>take care,<P>

Cali:<P>The others have expressed it mostly: radical honesty. In pursuing radical honesty, zorweb and I did the Personal History questionnaire. We then discussed everything about ourselves. Answered any questions.<P>Have you and your H done the PH? It can go a long way toward giving each of you the opportunity to express your pasts. Particularly the why's of any significant events.<P>Let your H digest what you said. It will sink in, now that it appears he is listening, I hope.<P>You have grown immeasurably, despite your traumatic childhood. That, in and of itself, shows your character and true mettle.<P>Keep up the good Plan A work.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Cali,<BR>tell your husband it is totally possible to be a virgin, through HS and college, and then marry the "only" man you have ever been with. I was the all american Cheerleader in HS and College and very popular, there were a ton of parties.....I was the "the mother hen" I took care of everyone. I too had "friends", and even had a boyfriend for 4 years, But he also thought it would be "cool" to marry a virgin. <BR>I did not have the childhood you had, I had the all american family thing. Unfortuantly, I dont think any of it prepared me for the pain of life. Your husband has to realize (like mine did) That NOT having other men in our lives is NOT an issue, It is not something I feel I have to go out and expirence. My H always thought I would/will get to a point that I would be curious, NOPE..not interested.<BR>Cali, at one time I thought I was a freak, most of my friends (married) had a hard time believing my H was my one and only. But I am proud, I am proud that somewhere I had enough self worth that I didnt "party" like the rest of my friends did in school, I was in college for an education, the Cheer stuff paid for more than half of it. I looked at it as a job, not a social outlet. It actually lead to a real job in the summers, and was offered a career after college. WE (cheerleaders) had reputations, for not being too smart and for being loose...So trust me, my H when we started dating (senior year), did not believe me when he "tried", and I said NO I am not ready. Well the rest is history we married, and to this day he is my "only".<BR>I think (but dont really know) it makes all this infidelity stuff so much more painful, It's like you gave this man something so incredibly special, and he did not take care of it. It adds to the confusion. JMO good luck. There are a few of us out here<BR>

Cali,<BR>I'm going to recommend a book that I just finished reading called <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932194257/qid=997108851/sr=2-1/107-9719473-7939701" TARGET=_blank>Struggle for Intimacy</A>. I grew up in a home with a father who didn't drink, but was what most alcoholics consider a "dry drunk" - which means they act like an alcoholic.<P>Some of what your husband may be asking for are things that you as a child of alcoholics, are afraid to give. Trust, intimacy, "control". There is a section in the book that your h should read, also before you have your big life discussion with him. Part of the reason you probably fear opening up to him has to do with the reaction you get from him. Like his denying the validity of what you told him was a truism - that you were virginal and had had no relationships before him. When he said that that couldn't be true, did you want to just stop telling him anything else?<P>He will have to learn to validate you in order to get your trust, and you will have to learn to trust. BUT in a safe environment!!!! If he is not safe (which he seems insensitive from this one post that I read, but maybe safe), this is not an area that you want to "go" into without professional help. If he doesn't respect and validate your efforts, it will drive you deeper into your self-protecting mode of just living on the surface.<P>Children of alcoholics are very warm, giving, generous people, who have strong empathy for other's pain, and are either very capable or very irresponsible. Your H is very lucky to have you.<P>Anne

Cali, I agree with most everyone else, do the radical honesty thing. <P>Hugz<BR>HbH

Another layer of the Cali onion.<P>I read this post early this morning and it started so many thoughts zinging through my head, about so many things, that I know I won't get a bit or work done today until I let some of them out. I can't even make sense of all these thoughts so they're going to come out as a dump, I hope none offend you.<P>This is the MOST IMPORTANT thing you've ever told us here. Your H doesn't like you coming here, maybe for this kind of reason. He KNOWS you're spilling your soul to us and he doesn't understand why he didn't hear this long ago. <P>You "escaped" after high school. I bet you look at that as the point where the "real" Cali was born. Everything before was a bad dream. Certainly when you first met your H you weren't going to tell him this stuff. This is the key to destroying Cali in the wrong hands. How did you know what he would do with it. <P>He knows that there is a huge piece of your life missing from his database. He feels he shouldn't have to ask. OTOH it's easy to see why you would be unwilling to tell him what he needs to know without gentle prying on his part. <P>I know nothing about my W's HS relationship history. It bothers me, but I think I know almost everything else about her. She grew up in a small town in MI (LP) and even though we go there A LOT she's never, ever attempted contact with anyone she knew. To me this is bizarre.<P>It's a little thing that she keeps secret, but it's starting to have repercussions cuz our kids are getting into HS and I don't know where she's coming from. I feel she doesn't want to hear about my HS stuff to avoid talking about hers (also, she tore me away from my HS sweetheart so it's hard to untangle all that stuff).<P>So, you've got to tell your H about this. I can see now why you seemed to chase after him so desparately. Maybe this would help him understand that. It's going to awaken powerful emotions in him (ala Freddy's post). But, you may see anger instead of protection. Maybe you do want to write it for him and let him digest it by himself.<P>This is absolutely a trust issue. Control as well???? You're controlling what he knows about you. You know more about him, than he, you. That will ALWAYS put you in the drivers seat.<P>"Will he feel bonded to me then?" More desparation? You have to tell him this, whether it has that effect or not. Remember Plan A.<P>Compassion? I personally don't know how anyone hearing this could help but be compassionate. But his anger over not knowing this stuff all these years may be stronger. You've got to be prepared for hurt. Let the bad stuff wash over you. Anger usually dissipates, the compassion should remain.<P>Could your sisters verify this stuff to him (your H). I bet you got the brunt of it, being the oldest. You do seem to be warm and giving (ala Harlequins comment) but, I bet you're not revealing of your own internal state (you would learn to hide that well). You've certainly revealed a lot to us, but to your H? Even to us it took you a long time to reveal this deep layer of Cali.<P>Your H claims that he doesn't believe your relationship history. You didn't tell him enough about yourself so that he could believe and understand it. He's trying to extrapolate from his own experience and it's not working. I also think that he might be trying to extort more information from you. He wants the WHOLE story (and he deserves it) before he's going to let you off the hook. Or maybe he's holding back his compassion until he gets the whole story. <P>Frankly, this conversation sounded like a good (great) thing. He will realize what a precious thing he has with you. Let him ALL the way in to your heart!!!<P>Best wishes,<BR>--Jeffers

Tell him. <P>Stuff like that happens. I didn't date until college, and that was only 3 or 4 dates - didn't amount to much. I just didn't have time to fool with it I guess. My H came along when I least expected it. My first real boyfriend. It turned into real love, and I knew it.

Wow! I can't reply as I am in training today...we're on a quick lunch and I was checking in...<P>I have lots of thoughts to organize to respond to you. I am overwhelmed, but have to stay focused on this training...<P>I feel that I am on the brink of a big turning point...personally<P>I don't want to slight anyone because I appreciate so much all your comments...<P>Cali

Cali,<BR>I'm on my business trip - I was thinking about you. I wondered how your trip was. The computer I am using is really slow, and all of them around have been for several days, I think there are firewalls for the worm. I'll try to go through the back threads I see how your trip went.<P>I am really glad to hear the tone of your thread, promise. I feel the same sometimes - that I didn't know my H as well as I should. I know about that reaching back into time.<P>hugs, aftershock

My H was also my "one and only" and I didn't meet him until after college. He was my second boyfriend, and I had exactly one date in high school. That was in the late 60's, early 70's, and few of my friends dated in high school either. We were too busy studying and protesting the war. <P>I think there is a lot to be said for NOT dating in high school, and for the concept of "courtship" instead of dating.

All who have told me to tell him:<BR>Well, I did it. I filled out Personal History Questionnaire and left it for him to read. It was in the bathroom when I returned from training, so I know he read it.<P>Then I wrote all night long...for about 5 hours...all the stuff I could remember off the top of my head from the time I was born until I met him...plus some of the thoughts I had during our early times together. I gave it to him and he 'groaned.' I'm not sure if it was a good groan or a bad groan...<P>I guess I was surprised that after 15 years he is expressing incredulity about my sexual history...why would he doubt my veracity after all these years? I wonder if OW has been putting doubts in his head.<P>Harlequin99...knowing my propensity for reading, I will be picking up the book you recommended...but I have thrown so many books into his path, I will have to hold off on giving it to him.<P>Jeffers...offend me? your replies to me are so sensitive and thoughtful..thank you! That you take time to make such a complex reply...it means a lot.<P>You all make me feel less crazy...and give me such wonderful insight into what is going on...<P>As Paul Harvey says, I gave him the rest of the story...all the layers...the memories...the thoughts behind them...the actions and reactions...I wrote 20-25 pages...it took 5 hours...If nothing else, I have a good start on an autobiography ...start thinking of titles... <P>Thanks again,<BR>Cali<BR>

Bump to top (now that we can get to the board. . .)<BR>