Just want to poll for an opinion from both men and women, BSs or WSs:<P>Ok, this is the situation; you hold a party at your house. Some of the guests come without their partners. It’s a great evening and your wife spends most of the night dancing with one of two guys who are at the party without their wives. <P>You’ve had to leave for an hour or so to take care of one of the kids and you return to the party at around 2:30am. Everybodys gone but you walk into the room to some slow music playing and to find your wife dancing closely with one of the two guys. There’s one other couple in the room – the other guy who’s dancing slowly with another married woman who’s husband left early. <P>So, my question is, what’s your opinion about this scenario? Do you think it’s perfectly ok? How would this make you feel? How do you think you’d react?<BR>

NOT okay. I would probably turn off the music and turn on the brightest lights and yell, "PARTY'S OVER!"

A definite NO NO!! I would have a major problem with 4 married adults slow dancing without their spouses in my home in the wee hours! Sounds like party's over to me!!! I'm curious as to what your W had to say about this little incident? <BR>cybil

Hi Cybil,<P>I discussed this with my W the day after the party. I kept the discussion within my Plan A and didn’t LB once – which I was proud of.<P>I just asked her how she felt about the situation and what she thought was going on. Her answer was that she thinks it’s perfectly ok and that nothing missappropriate happened – like kissing or stroking. She said it was just fun. She said she knows the guys (I don’t) and she’s friends with their wives. She said she just felt really comfortable in the company of these men. Unfortuneately her sister agrees with her position ;-(<P>What I then said is that having fun is fine but it shouldn’t be at my expense. I also told her that I felt very uncomfortable with the situation even though nothing missappropriate happened. I told her about the Harley principle of being enthusiastic about the behaviour of a partner and I told her that as hard as I was trying I just couldn’t get enthusiastic about this situation and behaviour. I also turned the tables and asked her what would happen if I was dancing like that with another woman, at what point would the behaviour become unacceptable for her and what she’d do about it. <P>At this moment, meaning today, we’re in a stalemate position. She gets angry and annoyed even contemplating modifying her behaviour and missing out on her fun. I’ve told her that I want to find a solution which would work for the both us and that the both of us could be happy with. One of my ideas is that if I’d been present in the room then it may have been more acceptable or if she’d cleared it with me before. This was seen as being a father figure or a controlling influence.<P>Now, this whole situation is very dangerous because I see her whole line of argument and the way she’s behaving as (intentionally) inviting the attentions of other men. And this she’s enjoying at my expense and at the expense of the other men. She knows that these guys can’t or won’t do anything and in my opinion she sure is egging them on. I mean, if I turn the tables and think about if I were at a party and some guys wife starts flirting and dancing with me – what do you think I’m going to think about her?<P><BR>

No way Jose, that this is even a topic of discussion (with difference of opinion) with your wife is crazy. No responsible, rational adult could possibly think this was ok, therefore the conclusion is obvious....your wife has serious issues with marital committment. For all practical matter the 2 couples were having an affair, a one-night stand, ea, with a little pa. Now if they are professionals, and practicing their craft...ok...were they?

Freddy:<P>The short answer: anything that even suggests inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior.<P>At the least, it borders on infringing on the rules of care and protection. It may be as she says: innocent. However, since these were people <I>you</I> did not know, and in light of recent history, IMHO, that makes this scenario a big no-no.<P>Bottom line: turn on the lights, party's over.<P>Thanks for a thought-provoking thread: the initial take was <I>it is wrong</I>. Your question forced me to sit and think about <I>why</I> it is wrong. This important for all of us, particularly WSs ... having been exposed to the fog, tendrils of it can linger or creep in from time to time.<P>Again, thanks.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Wow, your wife sounds just like mine. And it gets worse every day. She's a flirt and I'm starting to think she doesn't belong to me anymore.

Godly Man:<P>I wonder if "flirtatiousness" is an indication of the emotional need for attention and praise? Perhaps one that is not being met?<P>Just a thought.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeenTheLight:<BR><B>I wonder if "flirtatiousness" is an indication of the emotional need for attention and praise? Perhaps one that is not being met?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It could also be an indication of an extremely selfish self centered person doing whatever they feel like doing and to hell with the rest of the world.<P>At what point do these "needs" cross the boundaries of "defensible, reasonable, and rational"? I think she's waaay over the line. Some days, this "needs" line just burns me up. Pedophiles and ax murderers can also claim to have "needs". <P>Bob<P>

STL,<P>I've thought about that a lot - and you could be right although I do think I'm giving her a lot of attention and praise. <P>If I think back, it's since the birth of our second child, that my W has really grown in confidence. I've encourage her to get back to work. I've encouraged her to loose weight and support her when she wants to go to the gym. She's lost weight. She wears great clothes and looks fantastic. She's a very open person, does exagerate, gets over-enthusiastic, and is somewhat gregarious.<P>She seems to need the attention of other men. Not just anybody but good looking, intelligent men that make her feel comfortable. She says she can control the situation and won't get into any trouble. I think I'm a good looking, intelligent man but I'm her H. I'm not somebody else. So, this is something which I can't give her - just need to find a way to live with it.<P>However, I do think she's living on the line and in this, lies the danger.<P>

I just emailed my W the Harley text about being recreational companions with the suggestion that if she wants to dance then how would she feel about dancing with me? meaning, slow dances at 2:30am should be exclusive to the two of us. What do you think?<P><BR>

Freddy, you and I are very much alike! I also consider myself an intelligent and good-looking guy, and I get attention from plenty of women, including my wife. But her flirtatiousness also has coincided with weight loss, increase in self esteem and an overall "reform" of her life. She also never wore makeup much before and now does.<P>SeenTheLight, could all this mean that our wives is starving for attention and we arent' giving it to her? Yes, It could. But I don't think that is the case here. Both Freddy and I have said that we go out of our way to show affection and desire for our wives. <P>I have a feeling that, at least in my case, my wife has gone through a real change in her life. She is only 20 years old and I half-expected this when we got married. She has changed herself and maybe she feels she can do better than me? I don't know. <P>But this type of behavior is unacceptable in a marriage, to me. And if it was as simple as unmet needs, then I would be happy to talk about them. But I think BamaAngst is closer to hitting the nail on the head. My wife suddenly knows what she wants and to hell with the rest of the world (me, her friends, her own parents, everyone but the OM)

Freddy:<P>Some people have extroverted personalities (like me, for example), and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. However, when extroversion begins to seek companionship (recreational, or otherwise) elsewhere. Therein, as you said, lies a big danger. Particularly for former WSs.<P>Here is where the rules of honesty, care and protection work jointly to establish parameters of behavior. If something is an issue with your spouse, and they articulate in an honest, caring and protective way, then you have an obligation (within the Harley/MB way) to adjust your behavior accordingly.<P>Slow dancing at the wee hours, without spouses present at the moment, at the least gives the impression that something is amiss. Ergo, it is behavior, within the rules of care and protection, that should be avoided.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeenTheLight:<BR><B>Here is where the rules of honesty, care and protection work jointly to establish parameters of behavior</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>STL, sorry, but I have to differ with you here. Not with the POJA, but the implication that one would have to negotiate such a thing as:<P>"no slow dancing with other men at 2:30am with the lights out and your husband away".<P>just blows me away. Of course, I also thought that "no sex with other people" didn't need to be discussed either... <P>Am I the only one who wants to yell out, "Jeez, put some duct tape or something on that thing"? [that was rhetorical, you don't have to respond]. <P>I guess it's just not as obvious to some WSs as it is to the BS. Would you suggest that they negotiate things such as:<P>candelight dinners with the opposite sex?<BR>caresses of/from the opposite sex?<BR>slow dancing with the opposite sex at 10pm?<BR>slow dancing with the opposite sex at 8pm?<P>If she's determined to screw around (or too self-centered to bother considering her husband's emotional state at all), POJA just ain't gonna happen. <P>Bob

Ok, this is exciting news and I just want to give an update here.<P>When I got home today, I asked the W what she thought of my email. I told her that I’d posted the issue on this website and I’d asked people for their opinions on the sitaution. I told her what those opinions were. She then told me she thought Harley was exaggerated ((crap basically), didn’t accept his advice and still thought her behaviour was ok. She also didn't agree with of any of you ;-( <P>So, I told her that I’d thought about the situation over the past few days and that I’d reached a decision. She said 'what decision?‘. So I said that I didn’t want to stop her having fun but her fun was at my expense, it was very hurtful and making me very unhappy. I've told her that I’d like to find a solution we can both be happy with and I repeated this too. Then I told her that I didn’t know if I could continue to live with somebody who didn’t take care of my feelings (and I absolutely mean this too).<P>Well, she flipped. She got really angry and started accusing me of controlling her and treating her like a little girl. I told her not to get confused and that I’m not telling her to stop anything just that her behaviour hurts me and that I don’t think I can live with somebody who does things like that.<P>Now she gets really angry, I mean we're talking about climbing the walls, so - I left. She screams at me 'where are you going?'. So I said, I need to leave because she’s tearing me apart, she's destroying the love I feel for her and I WILL NOT get angry at her. <P>Anyways, I’m gone about an hour (went for my run) and when I come back she’s waiting for me. She says (with a BÌG smile on her face) I’m sorry. I didn’t want to hurt you and if it does then I won’t dance with other men like that.‘ And then she says 'you’re more important to me anyway‘<P>Get that – I haven’t heard that for years. And I told her that too. I told her that those words meant so much to me and that she’s just made my heart melt.<P>If I knew how to imbed a smily here, you'd have lots of them :-)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freddy:<BR><B>Anyways, I’m gone about an hour (went for my run) and when I come back she’s waiting for me. She says (with a BÌG smile on her face) I’m sorry. I didn’t want to hurt you and if it does then I won’t dance with other men like that.‘ And then she says 'you’re more important to me anyway‘</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Time to get back on the horse that threw ya, cowboy ;-))))))))))<P>Bob<P><p>[This message has been edited by BamaAngst (edited August 06, 2001).]

Wow, what an interesting thread. <P>Freddy, do a colon and a parentheses : ) together . THat's the basic smile. ; ) will give you .<P>My H is very extroverted as well. A flirt. He loves attention from women, and loves to be sweet to them. I always admired this quality, and I felt lucky to have such a romantic husband, but I never thought he would cross the line. He never did anything before that made me uncomfortable. I trusted him. P.S. Freddy, that's : ( <P>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 06, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 06, 2001).]

Man, that is the THIRD person in the past 7 days that I've seen get positive results from standing up for themselves! <P>I am noticing a trend that other BS's might want to take careful notice of! Are we too weak?

GM, am I one of the three? kidding.<BR>I agree with everone, this is totally inappropiate behavior and should not be excused. Talk about, but in a caring respectful kind of way. this is what I couldn't/can't seem to get right. <P>My W and I are both extroverts and I never thought it was something that would get us in trouble and I'm still not sure it did. I think that individuals know the difference between right and wrong and some choose the wrong way and don't think of the consequenses.

Dear Freddy,<BR>Respectfully, I don't think it is a good idea for you both to be ganging up on each other with outside opinions, because the bottom line is that if something is important to YOU it should be important to your spouse, if for no other reason. It doesn't matter what her sister thinks nor what we think--the policy of joint agreement is between you two and the boundaries set for yourselves. Period. It's not about one controlling the other. It's about respect for our individual comfort zones.<P>If something makes either one of you feel uncomfortable, then it means there is not mutual enthusiastic agreement, whether it is slow dancing with someone else's spouse in the dark at 2am or jogging with a friend of the opposite sex at noonday!