Hi averybody,<P>Hopping that line would get some eyes. This is my first post. Lurked for a couple of months. <P>Here's a little background. Me 35. Wife 36. Both our parents divorced when we were teens. We will be married 15Y on 8/9/01. Kids 11(b),10(b), and 4(g). 2-3 years prior to DDay we really grew apart. I had several opportunities to cheat(never did) as I'm sure she did. I'm the one that started the wheels in motion towards working to split up. She went back to work last fall. On or around September W woke me up to ask where middle S was. We couldn't find him. Police, Helicopters, everything. Most tramatic experience on my life (well a tie actually). Anyways, we found him about an hour later curled up in bottom of YD bed. This was my turning point and I suspect W's also. I wanted to try. W was already in EA at least. She went the other way. I didn't do much but I was starting back. DDay was 12/10/00. Wife broke down and told me about her "mess up". Told me that she was emotional attached and she slipped up and they (he's co-worker) slept together once. I found out later that was a lie (one of many). I basically got us through the night and then broke down hard the next morning by myself. We spent about two weeks LB each other. <P>I met OM or should I say "other child" (he's about 10 years yonger than us. My exact opposite. I had lunch with him and immediatly saw that he was playing her (she'd already heard this from her friends and his). No confrontations (hard as hell) but we had an understanding. Either he was going to step up or back off. Needless to say he's quite the sneaky coward. <P>Even though I knew there was no way that relationship was going to go anywhere and yes, I did ask my wife if that is what she wanted (she has repeatedly said no, you are 10x the man he is - that's BS, I'm 100x the man he is). I started counseling. I asked wife to come along but she said she needed to work on herself first. I found a good counselor for me. My exact opposite (I'm type A). He had me start working on myself and I started making a lot of changes in the way I treated my W (I have always treated her good just didn't meet her needs - she still hasn't told me). I took responsibility for the event/affair because I felt I led us down this road. That was a mistake (should have only accepted 1/2), it just made it OK for her to continue. Meanwhile W was dragging her feet. I finally set up counseling for her with her shrink. She basically told my W that is is hard to get back those feelings for me. I didn't like that at all so I asked her to go to my shrink (yea, I know). After the first session he wanted her to see a psychiatrist. She had also lost a lot of weight and was throwing up. W never went to psych. but went to the counselor a couple of more times before he basically told her not to come back until she made some decisions. I knew what that meant.<BR>The first three months I did nothing but kiss a**. I really fell in love with her all over again. She was responding to me but said she was still trying to get over the emotional part of affair. Well, PA was continuing and I figured it out. That hurt more than the first time because of how she was responding to me. I literally thought of suicide for the first time in my life. What hurt even more is that she was still lying about it. I knew and she wouldn't even tell me the truth. <BR>Anyways, promises were made again and I went right back to kissing a**. Couple more months go by and the end of the school year is coming (W is teacher). She's still in contact but I think PA is over because we are having sex again (rarely). She decides to quit her job. I didn't force her but it was obvious that we wouldn't make it if she didn't. Score one for her. <BR>After school gets out in late May we go on a trip to Vegas together. Great trip, things start to get better again. I had told her that we wouldn't talk about or work on our relationship for a few weeks. A few weeks go by and things are going so good (not perfect but better than they had been in years) that I just decide to keep my mouth shut. This lasts another few weeks.<P>Then it happens. She gets distant for about a week. I finally had to ask her if she had talked to OC and she admitted to it. Crushed again but no LB. Tell her I'm still fighting and want this to work. She promises no more contact again. <P>Things go OK for a couple more weeks. Then a couple more weeks of distance. I ask again. Yep, they're talking. LB all over the place. Kick her out. She comes back with more promises. I have no trust left at all. We have been living in limbo for about 3 weeks. <P>W is beautiful. One of the most beautiful 36 year old women you will ever meet. Great mother. Terrible wife (right now). She has low self esteem, is depressed, selfish, and is definitley in MLC. I'm not blaming but she definitely has issues that are in the way of our marriage.<P>I'm far from perfect. My anger rises pretty fast. I've always expessed it then assume everything should be OK. I'm just now learning how to really controll it and how to look behind the anger to find hurt, fear, or frustration. I think that I've done pretty good considering the circumstances although when I LB it's not pretty.<P>W internalizes everything. Only gets angry in self defense or if kids are involved. That's why I think she has self esteem problems, eating problems, and seems to have the emotions of a 14 years old. OC doesn't want kids and she knows there is no future there. Why can't she move on?<P>Here's my question. How do I help her get help and help her to make changes? I can't do this on my own. She has to be the one to want it and do it. Everytime we go to couseling the shrink will end up in private sessions with her taking her back to her childhood. She always comes home bawling and saying that they just tell her "don't throw up". She has a bad attitude about couselors. She seems to bail when it starts to get tough.<P>Looking for anybody that has/had a spouse like this or better yet anybody that had/has these problems to teach me how I can help. I'm going to drag her to couseling one more time and that's it for me. I'll give it my all but I'm exausted.<P>Thanks,<P>whothehellisshe<BR>

you can't make her change. thats been said so often it should be in the mast head of the discussion forum, but we can't help but try. she has to change and in order to do that she will have to hit bottom. that probably means out on her own alone she will have to be dumped by lover and flounder emotionally this will take time maybe a couple of years. its enough to cause you to lose almost all hope I understand that. the pain is so terrible sometimes one can offset some of the pain with anger, however that doesn't last long enough to get us through the night. constantly talking to oneself can , in some cases bring about fortitude so sustain the distance. a type of self hypnosis the talk is ongoing almost compulsive. sadly, by the time the wayward spouse has hit the skids the betrayed spouse has healed and doesn't want to go back into the situation. its so horrible to have to stand by and watch a loved one self destruct. God bless you

I was in much the same predicament as you, W, 39, involved with a much younger man.<BR> <BR>She would recommit and things would go fine for a while and then, bang, just like you, backwards again, and it got that way I knew when contact was being made without even asking.<P>I became frantic each time this would happen, not knowing who was initiating the contact. Eventually she revealed to me that he was initiating contact. This guy was a slime, playing games with her emotions my marriage, and our family.<P>I guess I did something that went against the MB principles and finally took matters into my own hands. OP (he was no man) was well aware I would not get violent with him, and WS while agreeing to no contact was not strong enough to refuse his calls. So I merely rang him and told him calmly that all of my numbers were being monitored and that if he rang any of our numbers again I would take it to the police and have him for harassment. 4 months - no calls. And I don't have to ask WS spouse about contact, you just know!

You don't.<P>You can only change and control you. The sooner we, the BS, figure this out, the sooner we get strong.<P>When we chase, they run.<BR>The stronger we hold, the more they struggle.<BR>The more we fear, the more they project anger.<BR>Out of our desperation comes their ambiguity.<P>Turn it around and you might change the reaction.<P>Move on. Move forward.<BR>Let go (and let God).<BR>Love without restriction.<BR>Believe and have abiding faith.<P>Cali<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joell:<BR><B>you can't make her change. thats been said so often it should be in the mast head of the discussion forum, but we can't help but try. she has to change and in order to do that she will have to hit bottom. that probably means out on her own alone she will have to be dumped by lover and flounder emotionally this will take time maybe a couple of years. its enough to cause you to lose almost all hope I understand that. the pain is so terrible sometimes one can offset some of the pain with anger, however that doesn't last long enough to get us through the night. constantly talking to oneself can , in some cases bring about fortitude so sustain the distance. a type of self hypnosis the talk is ongoing almost compulsive. sadly, by the time the wayward spouse has hit the skids the betrayed spouse has healed and doesn't want to go back into the situation. its so horrible to have to stand by and watch a loved one self destruct. God bless you</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>--------<BR>joell,<P>Thanks for the reply. I used the title "how do you make them change" to get some replies. I really should be asking how to motivate. She is defenitely unhappy. Even though she's getting everything she wants she is still not happy. You talked about getting dumped by her lover. No way that's going to happen. He will not commit to her because he doesn't want kids. I've even tried to get her to leave the kids with me and go give that a shot so she can see he won't be there. That's the way he plays her. He says all the right things to get what he wants then gets out when she starts talking about a future. He says that she needs to be with her family (and sets himself up as a good guy by sacrificing his happiness for her good. Yea - what a crock.)<BR>As soon as she comes back to me he starts making contact again.<P>I really think that she is making progress. Everything she has told me in the past has been lies. She's broken down the trust so bad that I really don't believe anything she says but I have to give her credit for the past few weeks. She seems to be telling the truth and is answering some of my questions. She has for the first time since DDay started to at least crack open the relationship books. She even went to the psych. that the counselor recommended. She made the appointment and went on her own. She had been mentioning it for a month and I was encouraging her but she wouldn't make the appointment so I didn't even respond the last few times she mentioned it. Learned a little lesson there. Although she went she came home crying and said she spilled her guts again and he didn't really tell her much.<P>Thanks again,<P>whothehellisshe<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trying-hard:<BR><B>I was in much the same predicament as you, W, 39, involved with a much younger man.<BR> <BR>She would recommit and things would go fine for a while and then, bang, just like you, backwards again, and it got that way I knew when contact was being made without even asking.<P>I became frantic each time this would happen, not knowing who was initiating the contact. Eventually she revealed to me that he was initiating contact. This guy was a slime, playing games with her emotions my marriage, and our family.<P>I guess I did something that went against the MB principles and finally took matters into my own hands. OP (he was no man) was well aware I would not get violent with him, and WS while agreeing to no contact was not strong enough to refuse his calls. So I merely rang him and told him calmly that all of my numbers were being monitored and that if he rang any of our numbers again I would take it to the police and have him for harassment. 4 months - no calls. And I don't have to ask WS spouse about contact, you just know! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>----------------<BR>Trying-hard,<P>Thanks for the response. Many of my counseling sessions are spent getting control of myself with regards to OM. The only time I LB is when it comes to him (I've trached him pretty good). I really believe that he is never going to leave this situation alone. Why would he? That being said I know if my W is going to get out she needs to do it on her own. I believe I am a pretty smart person and that I could do some pretty devious things. Hell, I can't believe some of the things that I've come up with. In the end it won't be real to me if she didn't make her own choice.<P>Q for you. Does wife know you did this? Do you think it was worth it? <P>Thanks again,<P>whothehellisshe<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JustPlainCali:<BR><B>You don't.<P>You can only change and control you. The sooner we, the BS, figure this out, the sooner we get strong.<P>When we chase, they run.<BR>The stronger we hold, the more they struggle.<BR>The more we fear, the more they project anger.<BR>Out of our desperation comes their ambiguity.<P>Turn it around and you might change the reaction.<P>Move on. Move forward.<BR>Let go (and let God).<BR>Love without restriction.<BR>Believe and have abiding faith.<P>Cali<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>----------<P>JustPlainCali,<P>When I first started counseling my C would tell me to let go. It took me a few months to figure out what that meant. I thought he was crazy. Looking back the best thing I could have done is to separate (something she asked for). We had a pretty tough night two nights ago. I think that we are both tired of the past few months. I LB'd the day before. I told her that I'm just about done. She things to much damage has been done but agreed to break off all contact (says there has been none for about a month) and go to couseling. I was setting up an appointment with another counselor and she asked to go back to mine. Suprise. I think I might have got through to her a little that night. We were talking about why counseling was so tough for her and she said that they don't seam to help. They listen to her spill her guts out then make small suggestions. I told her that even though she doesn't realize it, they are helping. I used her self-esteem as an example. The C told her to say thank you to me when ever I paid her a complement (which is quite often). I asked her to think about how she would feel if she followed that advice for the past few months. If she had to say thank you then she would start feeling that she has some worth and at the same time she would see how much I cared for her. The next day (yesterday) was when she asked to go back to that counselor.<P>We're trying to lay some ground rules. We both want this to be about moving forward from here. I still have questions about affair but have told her I will let them rest if she will give it her best shot and avoid contact. We have both agreed that if this doesn't work for either one of us the other will let go. I never wanted that before because I thought it could be manipulated. I guess I have to trust. I am struggling with wanting to know if contact happens. The only time I LB is when I find out about contact. She is now to the point were if I ask if contact has been made she tells the truth. Even when I don't ask I can tell when it happens. I am thinking that it would be best for our recovery to not even question her and just plan A while we are in couseling. Opinions on this please.<P><BR>Thanks,<P>whothehellisshe

The best chance you have to motivate her to change is to change yourself. You said you kicked her out once. It may be time again. Let her look to him for all of her support. Do not offer her anything. Let her know what it will be like to lose you. Do not LB, just let her know you will no longer sit by and let her have you both. It sounds like she is the perfect candidate for Plan B. If she is willing to talk to some one more time, try Steve Harley. He may be able to get her to think about things differently.<P>I went to Plan B with my H almost three months ago. He called yesterday and wanted to sit down and talk. He is not back, but things are changing. I let him see the changes I have made since he has been gone. Do not tell them about the changes, let them see them. Get away, work on yourself, then when they are ready to talk (and they almost always come to that point) sit down and talk. Stay calm, show little emotion, let them see the strong you. Funny how after my meeting with H last night he wants to get together again to talk more. <P>I am ready. If he wants to look at how things can be fixed, we can talk; if he still is unsure at the end of the talk, I am ready for more Plan B. But at least he knows what he is missing and I gave him the chance to talk about reconciliation.<P>Hang in there and keep posting here.

whothehellisshe,<P>I am finally starting to learn with help from other here and reading that I can NOT change my WS. It has been 12 mos. since D-Day for use and I continue to learn, learn, learn....<P>"The Monogomy Myth" was a good book for answering alot of questions for me on the Big Picture of how an A works and the process for healing. <P>Someone sent me a quote which hits it on the head for me: "Happiness is like a butterfly. The more you chase it, the more it will elude you. But if you turn your attention to other things, it comes softly and sits on you shoulder." <P>My WS is also a teacher. Our stories are very much the same. You can check out our story in: PlanA/Plan B Topic: Is This Working?<P>positive

Sinkingfast,<P>Thanks for the reply. Where could I read up on your story? I have thought about plan B several times. Plan B will be messy. That is probably why I've avoided it for so long. I think we could plan B except we can't agree on the kids, who would leave, etc. When I kicked her out she was only gone for a few days before coming back and that was only a month ago. I felt bad and let her come back because I asked her to be honest with me about contact and she told me that she had been talking to him. I screwed up by not making it safe about her revealing there was still contact. When we start talking about seperating a battle to hurt and control is started. She's not happy with this but I told her that if we didn't end up working out then I was going to get joint custody, 1/2 the $, and the house was going to be sold (We seem to fight over the kids and the house which she'll never be able to afford). I know this sounds controlling and admitted that to her even though I was just setting my boundries. I just wanted her to know that she needed to think about this because it was a fact. I would not be accepting anything less that that. Another problem I have with Plan B is that I know I'm not going to be patient enough to wait. If this doesn't work then I'm going to get on with life. Sure, I'll hope that she gets it together and wants me back but I won't be holding my breath. I want her to want to be here for me not because it's easiest for her.<P>Thanks for listening,<P>whothehellisshe

whothehellisshe,<P>my/our story is in the Forum: PlanA/Plan B and the Topic is:Is this Working?<P><BR>positive

Positive,<P>Thanks for the response. The butterfly analogy made me think. I know that I have put to much effort into this and neglected other parts of my life. One thing that I have to say is that the A was one of the best learning experiences of my life. Painfull but I am a completly different person. One of the most frustrating things that I think we all share is the fact that others think we are weak for hanging on. The think we have no self respect. It pretty easy to start down that path but the weak people are the ones telling you to quit and give up. <P>You are right about our stories. They are very similar. My W's other man is different though. He is pretty selfish and has no interest in a future. He just wants to take what he can. I had a pretty good session yesterday about OM. Even though I can see what is going on this is really about my wife. She is a good person (weak but good) and she wouldn't have done this if he didn't have some good qaulities about him. She also pursued that relationship because there was a part of her that she couldn't be in our relationship and I need to encourage her and make her feel safe to be able to show that side of herself in our relationship. I was kind of excited to figure this out. I hope she gives me the chance.<P>Pretty easy to see why it's called a rollercoaster.<P><BR>Thanks,<P>whothehellisshe

Yes, the OM in my case is different. W once told me that she thinks he is infatuated with her. That maybe the case. OM once came to our house. I think he came there to claim her. Just the other night I (like u) could tell she had contact. I asked her if it was over and did she tell him it was over. She said "what do you think after what happened". Meaning OM coming over. Asked her about writting a No Contact letter also. She said "where is that coming from?" I believe she thinks I have met w/ a lawyer, which I have not. Then she told me to write the letter. Well...I have drafted a letter based on Steve H's suggestions but I have yet to give it to her to approve/edit. She is in the Fog, on the fence, etc..<P>The past week I have stepped back. Still Plan A but, not crowding her which I believe I have been (Butterfly analogy). It appears to be working so far. She doesn't have the cell phone OM got her, of course we have been thru this before but, hopefully it sticks this time. The rollercoaster continues and boy what a ride it is.<P>I have improved myself also. Which has helped myself and the kids (W said so) It has been the only way to try and keep my head up.<P>When W has contact w/ OM I LB all over the place. How could you? Why do you? How could you do this to us? I have also asked W if she is "in love with me?" She has always told me she loves me but as for "in love" she says she is trying to to.<P>I will be hard if W go back to the same school as last year with the OM also working there. That's good your W left her job. I only hope mine will. Don't know if I can continue if she returns to same school. Plan B...I don't think it's for me. <P>let me know how you are doing.<P>positive

Sorry that I did not get back with you sooner. I was having some trouble with my computer at work yesterday and I did not get into the forum until this morning. <P>You can find my story under "Barely Above Water". There are some other posts that include info as well, but that is the main story. It is not a pretty story, but are they ever? The fastest way to find all of the posts I have is to search under my name. It will bring back everything I have posted whether I started the post or just responded. <P>I will warn you that Plan B is not easy, but it does seem to be working. The problem I have with my H is that right now he feels that I am strong enough to take care of myself, deserve better than him and that the OW is having a hard time and needs him. He does not see that the pain he has caused me does not stop just because I am getting stronger and that the only way to get rid of the pain for good is to rebuild the marriage.<P>While I have been in Plan B for almost three months, when I got a call from him on Tuesday because he wanted to talk I decided to go. A close friend of mine, who also happens to be a preacher and fully understands the Harley technique, has been in contact with him, so I know some of the things that he is feeling. I talked to my friend about me meeting with my H and he thought that with all of the changes I have made in my life and the doubts he is having about the choices he has made that it would be a good time for my H to see me. His thought was how could he know the changes that I have made if he can not see them first hand.<P>I actually thought that I may get handed D papers that afternoon that I met him because that threat has been there for some time now and he had just informed our friend that he was working on them, but I did not get any papers and we have decided to sit down and talk again. If the talk does not lead to him sending a no contact letter or agreeing to talk with Steve Harley about the possibility of sending a no contact letter, I am willing to go back to Plan B full force. <P>I have not heard from him since our meeting on Tuesday, but the plan was for him to call me later in the week for lunch. Since it is now after 10:00 on Thursday, I guess the call will come Friday if at all. Part of me is afraid to answer the phone every time it rings. I wonder if the papers will be in hand for this next meeting or if he wants to just talk more. <P>The biggest lesson that I have learned from all of this is that I need to be more patient. I feel that from everything that happens to you in life there is something to be learned and that this was God's way of teaching me patience. Plan B takes a great deal of that. There are times you want to pick up the phone and call because you have no idea what is going on in your spouses mind, there are times you just want to see them, there are times you never want to see them again and there are times you just want the nightmare to end regardless of the outcome. But with Plan B you must have patience. Patience to let Plan B work, patience to let yourself change, patience to let your spouse realize those changes and decide if they will or can change themselves and patience to let them come back. If you push, they push back. If you demand, they run. If you walk away, they stand up and take notice. Let her take notice.<P>Hang in there and thing about what plan is best for you. If you are quickly losing feelings for her Plan B is in order, if there are a lot of feelings left, maybe you can still Plan A. The decision must be one you are comfortable with and believe you can accomplish. But keep in mind that if your end goal is to win her back, you can not afford to lose all of your love for her.<P>Sorry this is so long and rambling. I wanted to give you a taste of Plan B.

SinkingFast,<P>Thanks for the insite on Plan B.<P>So far I still retain enough love to continue Plan A with a little modification. I am backing off a bit. Not alot but enough to hopefully start her thinking. Still leaving notes, flowers, doing housework and fix-its to the max. Maybe I am still doing to much???? But I feel OK doing it! <P>Yesterday I bought W a gift certificate at a salon to have her hair done or what ever she wants. When I bought the certificate the lady at the salon she remembered me as getting W these in the past. The lady said "You really take good can of your W. I wish my husband would do the same." I guess this conversation got me started on "am I doing to much."<P>I know we have to address the No Contact issue still. I do want a letter and her to not return to the same work location. Will have to work on a good Plan A approach for this.<P>any input?????/

whothehellisshe:<P>It sounds like your wife's psychologist is working on psychotherapy. That usually isn't much good for marriage counseling. <P>I would strongly urge you to give one of the Harley's a call (888-639-1639 for appointments), and start counseling with them. Your counselor seems to be doing an excellent job with you. I'd like you to work with Steve or Jenn for a while, so that they can assess whether you ought to be in Plan B or not (I'm guessing that you're close, but not there yet). In addition, they're very effective behavioralist who can start working with your wife on changing her marital behaviors. The first step will be getting her to end the affair, and buy in to an accountability plan.<P>I struggled through my wife's affair for about a year, through some pretty trying circumstances. The single best thing I did was to call Steve and start counseling with him about a week after D-day. If I were you, I'd give them a try.

Whothehellisshe,<BR>Please do not think you are weak for waiting for your wife to return, I do however know where you are coming from, although none of our friends / family know of the A several have suggested to me that it is time to move on (D day was 4 months ago). I believe WE are the strong people in the A game, we are the ones who are prepared to work on ourselves and the marriage so that it works out for both parties. The easiest thing for us all to do would be top throw in the towol, but we are not like that - thats why we are here!<P>As to how to deal with your wife, and the fact that contact still appears to be taking place, I have never tried to break the affair personally, only tried to plan A and meet her needs. However I know from a comment last week that he has broken it off (wife still says however that she will not return!), and by the sounds of things found himself another person!. This just goes to show what sort of foundations these people try and build a relationship on, I beleive as I think Steve H states somewhere on this site, the OP will eventually get fed up with all the bagage that the WS is carrying, i.e. the BS.<P>Keep plan A'ing, paying her the compliments and limit the love busters, I know its hard I'm there like you are, but we just have to hope the WS will start to see the light as the fog lifts.<P>mands

Thanks everybody!!!<P>I've had a problem getting into this thread until know. I don't have much time right now but I would like to thank everybody for there responses. You guys/gals are awesome. I just wanted to post a little update about a phone call I just had with one of our friends. <BR>I've talked to this friend (she is real close to my wife) off and on while the A has been going on. A few months ago I met her for lunch to tell her I was going to get out. I just couldn't see it working. She basically begged me to stay in it for W's sake. Said that W will totally distruct and told me I needed to stay until she at least gets a little bit stronger. W was really having eating problems and weighed less than when we were married. She probably lost about 30 lbs. at that point. She told me that if I was going to leave that I needed to take the kids no matter how hard I had to fight to get them. I knew if I took the kids that would destroy her. So I stayed with it for awhile and she and the marriage started to improve a little. During that 6 week stretch when everything was good I talked to this same friend and told her that things were going good and I thought we made it. She told me not to get my hopes up because she didn't think she hit bottom yet. This upset me and I was even arguing with her about it. I guess I wanted it to be real. Well, she turned out to be right. <BR>Fast forward to today (our 15th anniversary BTW), I talked to her again and told her that I'm happy that we are going to counseling again but I'm not expecting much. She was the opposite. She said that W still needs to deal with her own issues but W told her she was going to give C 110%. So I'm pretty encouraged by that. <P>Keeping my fingers crossed,<P>whothehellisshe

Who:<P>I hope things are going well for you. I have thought a lot about what you said your friend told you about the kids. I agree 100%. If and when yuo decide to go to Plan B, it is very important that you keep the kids. If that means filing for a legal separation to do so, I feel that it is very important that they have you consistancy and not your W's wavering behavior as an example to see everyday. It will also lead to a much stronger Plan B. It will show her not only what it is like to be without you and your support, but what it would be like to not have the kids all of the time. I talked to Steve Harley once about people only coming back for the kids and he told me that it does not matter what gets them to the table, but that they get there and you go from there. I was concerned about that attitude at first, but he explained that while that may be the initial reason they return, it is not why they stay. They start to see you for the changes you have made and the new and better person that you are and they stay for the marriage. I hope it never comes down to Plan B for you, but if it does please keep these things in mind.<P>Positive, <P>I am glad to hear that you feel enough love to continue in Plan A. I think when it works and you do not have to go to Plan B, the WS goes through a lot less stress. But if it is necessary, please do not be afraid to make that move. If I can do it, anyone can. I was a mess when I moved to Plan B. I have alway been a very strong person. The A pushed me not only to the edge, but I was left hanging on with only one finger when I finally got help. I would go for days without eating and sleeping and I would spend a great deal of time crying on some friends' couch. I really don't even remember a lot of these times clearly. I just know that I could not go on letting someone tear me up on the inside and act happy when I saw him. I literally began to eat me up on the inside. Always being the strong person I thought that I could get through this on my own. It took nearly crashing my car on the way to work one morning while crying my eyes out to realize I needed some help. I called my doctor and got some anti-depressants. I took them for only two months and stopped, but they got me through the really bad times. Looking back I never could have gotten through those first few weeks of Plan B without them.<P>Three months after starting Plan B I feel like a new person. I know that if he returns he will see all the changes I have made in my life and if he does not return that I will live and move on. But I am still a better person because of what I have been through. <P>Good luck to both of you and hang in there. There are plenty of people here to help.

SinkingFast,<P>Thanks for the reply. I read your story. So sad but it is obvious that you are a very strong person. Now that you are in plan B are you still "waiting" for the marriage to come around? You seem to be getting on with your life but still have hope for your marriage. When I started plan A (didn't know that was what I was doing, just following my counselor's advice) I thought it was going to be real hard. After a week or so it was pretty easy, in fact, I learned that I love to get rid of the crap and just love my wife. Plan B looks extremely difficult for me. I can't see how I can avoid contact with my W because of kids, $, etc. I can't see how I could preserve the love I have. "Hope" seems like a dangerous thing in plan B. Maybe I have more work to do on myself.<P><BR>Thanks again,<P>who