I LBed major last night but I believe it got spun in a positive light/direction when everything was said and done. I didn’t sleep much but wanted to reflect on what had happened before I posted. It’s long but I’ll try and leave a lot out to shorten it up.<P>Pre LB<BR>I took the afternoon of from work to spend with W to run errands around town. Well I saw Gods hand at work, almost everywhere we went some we knew or a stranger had to stop and tells us what a beautiful family we had and how wonderful our kids were. I watched my W as people told us what wonderful parents we were and how they wish they knew more like us who thought so much about their children. Needless to say the W was more than happy to get away each time tickled me to death. Well as we shopped at different places I noticed that she was picking up some unusual items, then it hit me what was going on. As we loaded the groceries into the car I stopped looked at her and said, so that’s why you’ve been asking me about where the tent is, she looked away and would talk. I let it go and we took every thing home and the kids took naps. Later I went back over so we could finish up and sure enough when we were shopping again she was picking up stuff to go camping this weekend with OM. I pushed it aside and went on with things.<P>The LB<BR>After dinner she needed to go to OM (he’s out of town) to feed the animals. I stayed with the kids, my D had a book we had purchased earlier and I noticed some pages already dog-eared. It was a wine book and pages with Italian wine were marked. OM is Italian, that flipped my switch; she had gone on about that book as if it was for us. When she got home I confronted her (LB) and she went off. She said that was not the case and what she had said was true (felt real bad now) and if I had such a problem with this what was I going to do when we got divorced. I said well if this is where things a going why are we dragging our feet lets get it over. She said because she wasn’t ready for that and she shouldn’t have even said it but why did I keep coming around if it hurt so much? I said because I love you, I love my kids and I want my family back. Next thing I know we are falling all over ourselves trying to apologize for the entire incident. She reminded me that she had made me a promise not long after D-day that she would let me know when to give up on her that she had no more hope that things could ever work out for us. <P>The aftermath<BR>We cooled of a bit and she began to cry, she said she wished this was all over, that she could have me come home and let OM go. She was afraid that if she made that choice that she would resent me for the rest of our lives because she didn’t know for sure the other wouldn’t have worked. She was afraid of making a decision that she knew either way she couldn’t go back and undo. I told her I understood that and I was trying to give her the space she needed but I couldn’t know how she felt and that made it hard for me sometimes and she replied the same to me. She that she knew what she was doing was wrong but she needed to do it her own way. She said she’s been making pros and cons list lately, been comparing the two of us and just can’t commit either way yet. She finds herself saying, “when I’m mad at OM I say H wouldn’t have done that or acted that way and when I’m mad at you I say I don’t think OM would have done that or acted that way”. Wow, for the first time she actually opened up to me and told me how she feels. She stated that it was tearing her apart and she was getting very tired of it. She said that her getting mad wasn’t my fault that she was angry with OM (she had called him when she went to feed his animals and he wanted to know why she was doing it so late, “like I don’t have my on life”) and she just took it out on me, that she understood how I felt and wasn’t thinking when she had done those things.<P>She finally mentioned me wearing my wedding band that part of her felt I was rubbing her nose in it but the other half was happy to see me wear it, that gave her hope. I told her I was wearing it because I still believe in our marriage and was still committed to us and as long as I was it’s staying on. So I asked her about those bracelets she wore, one on one wrist from me and on the other wrist from OM. She said that was how she felt. We chatted some more then she went to take a shower and get ready for bed. When she came back my D and I were picking up, W said you don’t have to clean up my messes, I need to start cleaning them up myself. I told her that I wasn’t cleaning her mess up I was just helping her, taking some of the load off her. I know this is long but please bear with me, what were only a few hours last night has turned out very long on paper. We chatted some more and we mutually agreed that she would try and be more considerate of my feelings, that she would be as honest as she felt comfortable with and I would let her know when something was bothering me. She wouldn’t say hear we go again and I would respect her decision even if I didn’t like it in regards to what was bothering me. I thought this to be a positive step in the right direction. Then she said sense neither of us had the energy to fight she had something to ask me. She asked if when OM got back from vacation that he wanted to take her and the kids on a trip for a few days. I sad NO, she persisted alittle saying that for her to figure things out she needed to see how OM and the kids got along, if the kids could accept him. Then went on to say that she was only thinking of them, that they needed a break and they were going to an amusement park. I said NO; I didn’t believe that it was fair to ask of the kids, that if things worked out and I came home that we would be confusing them even more. That she should use them to play family with OM, it wasn’t right. She said that’s not what she meant, that her and I and the kids were family, not OM. But isn’t that what you (W) just said, she agreed that she had. I went on to explain how it felt to feel replaced as the father and husband in your family. One of the worst days of my life was when I found a picture of OM with my kids in his living room. It wasn’t so much the picture but that his living room looked like mine, all those toys on the floor as if they lived there. She has apologized for that over and over again but I still see that picture in my head. She had even said once that she had involved the kids because sense I wasn’t a good husband that I must not be a good father and she wanted a positive roll model for them, OM. After I explained how I felt she said she that has to be the worst thing she has ever said to me and that it’s not true, never was, you are a great father and they will always know that no matter what. That she never wants to know how that feels, and she hope that never happens (I read that as though she didn’t want our family to break up) and what ever I decided about the trip she would back me 100%. I told her I would consider it but for now the answer is NO. I thanked her for asking me about this and let her know how much it meant to me. I told her I was going home, she asked me to stay longer but she understood we had both been through a lot tonight. She gave me a huge hug and whispered in my ear that she was sorry for all the pain she was causing, I said not you that we are causing. She said well then for the pain she was causing me. I said if I wasn’t willing to put up with this, with the pain, I wouldn’t be here, that she was worth it. That I love her and she is worth all of this. She started to tear up and said here I go pros and cons. We said good-bye and I went home.<P>What do you make of all this, I think it turned out to be positive. At least she finally told me some of how she felt. Do you think I did the right thing about the trip? I was honest in how I feel. What do you think about me helping her sell that #@%$ bracelet, I’m afraid it might come back at me later. I know you guys have been good to point out things that I don’t see. I plan to continue the way I was going and doing, I just have to control myself mare. Sorry it was so long. This is what happens when you don’t have any close friends to talk with and you write every thing down.<P>silwl<BR>

silwl,<P>I agree with your stance on the trip, the children shouldn't be in the middle of this mess. Yet,they are. I do think that a dose of reality with OM and children would probably help,but a few day trip with OM sends sooo many bad signals,even for your W to the children.<P>As for selling the bracelet, my take on this is if she wants to sell it she should do it. It is her bracelet. Perhaps you go with her, but I would have her do the whole thing. Personally, if I were you I would stay away from this. It is hers to sell or keep.<P>As for the rest, man she is a confused woman. I asked on your other thread, about your job search. How is it going? I suspect that leaving the OM behind will help all concerned if it comes to that.<P>Hang in there, but remember to consider Plan B before your bank runs dry.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL<P>Funny you should mention about the job search. From my end nothing has panned out as yet. The W even mentioned that yesterday, I just left it out. She stated that she was afraid that either OM or myself was going to just one day soon say I've got my new job or transfer so what are you(W) going to do. She's afraid she want be ready if/when that happens. I don't really get that. If he was leaving and she wanted to go, fine but the kids stay here. If I get a new job and she won't leave then I stay to be with my kids. I don't know of I mentioned that OM had put in for a transfer, guess where, east coast.... He should know around September or October and gone by first of the year.<P>I see what you are saying about the bracelet, I think you're right it should be something she does. As for Plan B, not ready for that yet, I think I'll know when I am. I am starting to feel much better as each day goes by, still have my ups and downs but seems better.<P>She is a very confused women, I honestly believe it has something to do with the medication (hormone treatment) she has been taking for Overian Cancer(sp) for about 1 3/4 years now. I've mentioned it to her because of her mood swings sometimes and she says she has spoken to the doctor but hasn't got any response yet, hasn't let me participate. I could be wrong be it seems strange because sometimes I don't know who this women is.<P>Thanks for your input.<P>silwl

she apoligized for the pain she is calling you. you said no that the pain was caused by both of you. not so she is the one causing the pain . do not take any responsibility for that. your marriage will best be served by putting her in her place do not be intimidated she keeps both of you on the hook simply because she can. hate to say this, but there is not much humanity to her. she may be ok as a mom, but even there when she has taken your kids to be with om she is so wrong. she cares mostly about herself. as long as you put up with this s--t she will dish it up to you. for you sake and for the sake of the kids. back off. file and ask for total custody. make her respect you. I know it is easy to say . so painful to do. she is messing up your childrens life, not to mention yours. if not for you then for the kids. tell her to go camping but don't bother contacting you again. she is playing you for the fool. the tears. crocodile tears. she doesn't really love you. love doesn't do that to a loved one. she loves herself first, her sex second, the om thirdly. if you are in the picture its as a safety net. God bless

Faith are you around today.

silwl:<P>So many of the things your W is saying are similar to mine, especially the "resentment" part. I think you are doing very well, actually. She seems much more in the middle than my W does... About the bracelet: ditto the others... it's her call.<P>Don't worry about it being so long. My posts are always so long that I think they scare people off! (Like my one today, "I'm Back and I'm Down.") Keep up what you're doing, Plan A until you can't any more. It's really hard sometimes... right now it's super-tough for me. But we will all get through this...<P>zen

I'm here. let me read your lloooonnnnggggg post , and I'll be right back <P>I saw this earlier, and saw good advice, so I thought I would come back to it. THen I lost my connection and had to log back in. <P>For real though, I wanted to let you know I am here, I'll read and think, and I'll be back.

zen<P>Thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks there post are so long. I don't know much about your story but I'm gonna go find out right now. Sometimes I forget how many others are going through the same thing, we will get through this...<P>Faith<P>I know what you mean, I've been having a bear of a time with my computer, just want to toss it sometimes. Thanks for making me laugh I needed it this morning. Hopefully I want get cut off like normal but if I do I'll get back with you tonight.<P>silwl

We don't mind your long posts. You need to get it out, and it's good that we have some details.<P>First, I would like to recommend you go to this link and read the link hbh has given us. I found the same post yesterday while GQII was down and I was looking for inspiration. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011466.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011466.html</A> <P>Overall, I think you have a positive thing going. Your W is communicating her feelings to you - she's admitting that she is on the fence. <P>The bracelet thing is just her deal. Don't help her do anything. My H moved out, but hasn't taken much stuff. I've asked him twice to come on and get his recliner (that makes me furious to look at - I surprised him with it when he was in ICU last July) and dresser. And he "just hasn't had time". I decided to drop it. I think he is scared to move more stuff. <P>I don't know how hard you should push the kids thing. I hope some others will respond with experience with kids. You should definitely keep your stand about her NOT taking them. puhleeeeezzzzzz! sheesh! "Trying out" the OM getting along with the kids!!! ugh. I don't think that's just fog - that's just - I don't know. But I don't know about WWIII over it. Hopefully she will honor your wishes without pushing it too hard. Just stand firm, but not rude or judgmental. SHe asked for your opinion. It's confusing for the kids and you think it would be difficult and confusing for her as well. <P><B>She that she knew what she was doing was wrong but she needed to do it her own way. </B> Yes. we know that's what our WS's are doing. You need to keep in your mind that she can screw up her life if she wants, but you don't have to do it as well.<P><B>we mutually agreed that she would try and be more considerate of my feelings, that she would be as honest as she felt comfortable with and I would let her know when something was bothering me. She wouldn’t say hear we go again and I would respect her decision even if I didn’t like it in regards to what was bothering me.</B> <BR>This is at least showing you some respect and consideration for your feelings. but DON'T count on it. "Don't expect" (my preaching lately). ok? <P>My suggestion is in the future, if soemthing is bothering her, listen to her as a friend. Try to put yourself in objective, "friend" shoes, listen, and try to only say things a friend would say. Good friends try to help each other think through their problems and come up with their own answers. THey do this by asking questions. "Why do you feel this way?, etc." If SHE asks YOU what's wrong, you might just say, "I just miss you and I want you to be happy. That's all." and then smile, and cheer up some. SHe won't want to be around you if you are sad and miserable. <P><B>“when I’m mad at OM I say H wouldn’t have done that or acted that way and when I’m mad at you I say I don’t think OM would have done that or acted that way”</B><BR>Do you know the things that she is referring to? What does the OM do that you don't? And vice-versa?<P><B>I read that as though she didn’t want our family to break up</B><BR>True. Noone wants to break up a family.<P>I gotta run. I may come back and give a few more thoughts.<P>OVerall, please stay in Plan A, and now that you know a lot of her feelings, etc., stay away from these types of conversations for while. Just appreciate her and enjoy your time/conversations. Keep it light. Like a friend. Like you are dating. <P> You're doing fine. Hang in there. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

I read your post hours ago, but wasn't sure how to respond. I'm kind of in the same boat now (grin). Your situation about your W wanting to take the kids out with her and the OM hits far too close to home. It reminds me of when my H wanted to take our 2 yr old out with OW#1 and her dd (little brat) to a children's museum here in town. I DESPISED the thought.<P>I told my H that he could always take Eric out, no problem, but I did not want him to be exposed to her. Not that I was worried about them acting inappropriately (lovey dovey) in public, but I know what kind of things she would say about me to my H, and I sure as hell didn't want my son to hear it.<P>I also realized that I couldn't stop him. That fact hurt like hell. I too, shared my feelings on it with my H. And as it turns out in my case, OW#1 had to cancel b/c her H was sick and she was taking care of him that day. WHEW!!!<P>So, in your case, the brunt reality of it is that you cannot do anything about it without it being an LB. You've already shared your feelings to explain why you disagree with it, and now it's up to her.<P>As far as the bracelet goes, ditto with everyone else. It's HER problem to deal with. If/when you two are headed into recovery, it would be a great closure tool for her to sell it.<P>Without a doubt, she's playing with you in order to stay on her fence. How much can you handle of that? I'd say she's acting rather typical for a WS spouse who doesn't know what they want. But do believe her when she says she doesn't know. She really doesn't, and can't be any more truthful than that. You should definitely consider yourself to be very fortunate that she opened up to you as much as she did. To me, that's an excellent sign. Just don't push for any more info right now. That will only steer her away from you.<P>Karen<BR>