I know many of you don't know my story, I am at the end of my rope. <P>Two weeks ago when my H revealed that his EA had turned PA (four weeks before our talk), I was very upset. I left him at the hotel room we were at. In between this time he had sex with me without telling me that it had turned PA and it really, really upset me. I left him a note that night and told him I NEEDED him to do a no contact letter to show me some respect and stop putting her feelings above mine.<P>We talked about this often over the next two weeks, he kept saying he wanted to call to end it. I explained to him how hurt it would make me feel if he called her and that it would mean SO much to me if he did the letter instead, please talk to his counselor on Thursday before he does anything. Today is wednesday and he called her up anyway to end it.<P>He says poor, poor OW was really upset and so was he. Oh, I feel so bad for her. And to top it all off he says that he told her he is ending it "for his kids" NOT to get back with me. He says he is telling everyone that because he still harbors alot of anger towards me right now.<P>AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! He is angry at me because HE MADE HIMSELF ANGRY AT ME.... I didn't DO anything. He let other people influence him and he read into things and made himself believe that I was this horrible, horrible person and he just hated me (this is how he justifies his A by the way). <P>For instance, he took my plan B letter as me USING THE KIDS AGAINST HIM. Even though I've explained that I DID not want to see him, it had nothing to do with the kids. In the letter I explicitly set up visitation for him, said for him to call the babysitter to rearrange the times, AND I had his mom call him 6 times to try and get him to see the kids!!! Instead, he just didn't see them for a month and blamed me.<P>And he says I was OUT TO GET HIM and that I was telling everyone he was a danger to the kids and badmouthing him. I WAS NOT DOING THIS!!! I have explained myself to him many times, and how it's not my fault if people make up their own conclusions, but he says he can't believe me. (because he went off and badmouthed me to everyone he knew ON PURPOSE when he THOUGHT I was doing it from HEARSAY)...<P>I can't get a seperation because he doesn't want it, I can't go to plan B because he thinks I am deserting him and using the kids against him (because I insist on visitation) and out to get him. I can't ask him to pay for anything because I MAKE ALL THE $$ (4x as much as him) and I CAN afford it. Everything I DO, everything is taken the wrong way. If I don't do a certain "favor" for him, I'm out to get him and not keeping him "on the right track". I can't win. He refuses to see my side of anything. He thinks what he thinks and that is it. <P>I am so mad right now. Not only that, be he starts talking about all this resentment he had for me before the A and how he disliked me SO MUCH and all this other crap. I am sure it is true, but he is taking it SO FAR out of proportion it is ridiculous. HE NEVER TOLD ME WHAT WAS IN HIS HEAD, so how the he** was I supposed to know or change??? Okay, so he doesn't agree with the way I raise/discipline the kids because it is very similar to the way his parents did it. Fine, I say, help me change and we'll find a better way to do it. No, he just resents me for it. AAAAHHH!!!<P>He shows me NO respect, none whatsoever. He puts OW feelings ahead of mine and it pi**es me off. I should not have to take that. He gets angry if I tell people we are "working it out" or insinuate that we might get back together. I'm not allowed to talk to ANYONE about this and he's not here supporting me, he wants to stay in his apartment and "figure things out" because he is just so freakin mad at me for stuff I didn't even DO. I told him to at least get mad at me for STUFF I meant to do, not stuff he made up in his head.<P>I have been through so much hell and he just does whatever he feels like doing, EVEN though he KNOWS how much it will hurt me. <P>I told him that calling OW to end it really hurt me, he just gets all mad and says "I told you I was going to do it", and I say, yeah and I explained to you how much it would hurt me. He just said he was really upset and had to go and that we shouldn't talk because we are just gonna fight.<P>AAHH!! He is coming over tomorrow morning to see the kids. I don't know how I am going to face him. I want it over with, I am sick of doing whatever he feels like at my expense. I explained how much the phone call would hurt and he chose to do it anyway. I give up, he is never going to stop hurting me. Never. <P>This man is too cruel to me, I need to divorce him. I will not be his #2 choice, I will NOT. He needs to put MY feelings above OW. I hate her. Why does SHE get to think that my husband is not working things out with me? Why does SHE get to believe that she was perfectly right in doing what she did??? Why can't she get hurt too?<P>I am so upset. I don't know what to do. Am I just supposed to sit back and let him blame me for EVERYTHING and just wait for him to get counseling and realize I didn't fu**ing DO anything!!!I didn't have the affair, I didn't lie about it. I didn't even try to get him back or use the kids against him or anything, all I did was take the brunt of the pain and post on MB for help. Yes, I did some things that contributed to our marriage being bad before the A, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW I WAS FU**ING DOING IT BECAUSE HE NEVER TOLD ME!!!!!<P>Okay, he SAYS he knows I was not fully to blame and that part of it was his fault too. But, he also says he refuses to believe the A was all his doing because he will never be able to forgive himself if he did.<P>Oh, and I can almost guarantee that he didn't say anything about no contact (even though I explicitly asked for this), and probably even agreed to stay friends with the bit**. I don't know for sure, guess I'll find out in the morning, if I even talk to him.<P>AAHH. I don't know what to do. How can I keep going. Am I just supposed to HOPE that one day he will start treating me with respect and actually TELL people that he wants to work it out with me? Oh, he says it and was starting to do alot of stuff to prove it to me (he also says I don't understand and I'm reading in to things too much). Am I just supposed to wait here for him while he's off in his apartment doing god knows what, "figuring himself out" when I can't even trust him???<BR>

hi, hbh. i'm here if you need to vent anymore. I'm mad for you!!!! grrrrr..... <P>I'm sure a lot of MB'ers got frustrated with GQII today. I'm sure they'll be joining us soon.<P>I don't know what to say to make you feel better. it definitely sounds like you are at a cross-roads. Were you able to talk to Steve yet?

Would it help you to know that what your H is doing is pretty darn normal? Here's my analysis of what I can remember from reading your posts:<P>You make more money than him, he probably resents you for that. Possibly even seeing it as a method of controlling him. And if he's upset at the way you raise the kids, where the hell was he the whole time? They're his kids too.<P>There is a LOT of resentment he feels towards you (for whatever reasons.. he may not even be aware of them himself). There is nothing much you can do about that, except to work on changing what needs to change in you. You've been doing that, he obviously sees it, or else he wouldn't keep on coming back to you.<P>How much do you want to bet that his calling the OW against your wishes was his way of trying to control the whole situation? Nah, all bets are off. We all know that's the case.<P>You can turn that LB around though. You can tell him that you are very happy that he has chosen to end it with the OW. You are still upset that he didn't seem to want to even consider the no contact letter, and you wish you two could have talked about it more so that you could understand why he was so against the letter. This is a great opportunity to talk about POJA, and perhaps set up some guidelines that the two of you can follow.<P>Although the letter is ideal for the BS, it isn't always so easy for the WS to do. Sometimes, a phone call is better for them. Heck, my H didn't even do either. He just stopped contact altogether, no reason given to her, nothing. That worked for us (but OW#1 also knows from me that for H and I to work on our marriage, she is NOT to be in the picture).<P>I can certainly see your anger, hurt and frustration. The damn roller coaster ride hasn't stopped yet, and probably won't for a little while longer. Can you handle that? <P>You've come so far with you and your H. I don't think now is the time to call it quits. Just take a break for yourself if you need to. It's quite possible that if you get a good night's sleep tonight, that may help you too.<P>Karen

I talk to Jenn. I am in the process of trying to make an appointment.<P>Thanks. I hope others will join us soon. I tried calling Orchid earlier, but she was not home. I have calmed down a little since then, but I am still pretty upset. I need to figure out what I am going to do when I see him in the morning.<P>HbH

Thanks Karen, you are absolutely right, 100%. But, why does he have to tell people that he is ending it with her "for the kids" and not for me???<P>I am sorry my husband resents me, I truly am, but what could I do?? I talked to him about this, SO many times, and he ALWAYS said, I am fine with it, he is very happy with his life, he just is "missing" something. I even offered, SEVERAL times to give up my high-paying job and stay home with the kids because MY FAMILY was more important than my job. But, he always said no, we need the $$, he's fine. He's fine, he's fine, he's fine. But he wasn't!!!<P>And why does the OW get to think everything is fine and that she was perfectly justified in what she did? Why can't she feel like my husband dumped her for me? That's what he did to me!!! Why can't he hurt her like he has hurt me all these years??<P>Karen, I don't know if I can take the rollercoaster ride anymore. I really don't. <P>He had WEEKS to end it with OW his own way, and he didn't. Then when I finally stick my foot down and say "I need a letter, for me, I need to know you care about MY feelings, etc." and he deliberately does not do it, even though he knows how much it will hurt me. Once again, he chooses her over me. I know you don't NEED a letter and that many times the WS does a phone call, but I TOLD him how much it meant to me and how much I needed it. And yet, he still chose to call her.<P>HbH

I am with you Hbh...<P>I can't call...H hasn't 'left' yet.... <P><BR>BOUNDARIES...You are simple setting boundaries and insisting that you be shown respect...this can be done without LB...I hope mthrr responds to my other post...she has been pushing me towards this for a long time...search her posts...<P>We have little children...I'm not sure a full-on plan b is either possible or necessary...but there must be elements of plan b we can use to protect ourselves from the hurt.<P>We deserve to. Part of it is our mindset...we need to recognize that this is all about them...FINE...but that does not mean we have to be pulled into the drama and chaos of their dream (or fog, if you will).<P>So...think with me...how can we plan b, but not?<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

hurtbyhubby,<P>I usually read and post on the In Recovery board and came over tonight by chance. I am glad you have a place to vent and that you take the opportunity to do it.<P>My H did many of the things your H did, met OW for coffee to end it the first time, thought about her feelings and not mine, when he wrote a letter to end it the second time it said he needed to stay in the marriage for his kids and that he would sacrifice his happiness (with her, evidently) to give his kids the life they deserve (barf!), then he called her to "soften the blow". H told one of our very close mutual friends that he was only trying to make it work because of the kids. As for resentment, boy do I know that tune! He resented me for everything, even things that did not happen, I did not say and I did not do. I certainly did not know he was thinking the things he was and unhappy about them, because I surely would have done something about them. H, too, was all too happy to be intimate with me without telling me that he was being intimate with OW. In fact, he did not tell me - I guessed it, he denied it, then he got mad at me for bringing it up, then he shouted at me "are you happy now?" to confirm what I had guessed. All through this he kept saying he did not know if he wanted our M or me or anything to do with me. He even had the gall to ask whether if we separated I would agree to him having custody of the kids (Can you spell "not over my dead body"?).<P>What I am trying to say is that things here were ugly, very, very ugly - from d-day #1, when I first found out about the A, through the first end of the A, through d-day #2, through the second end, through the day I realized they had an EA which turned into a PA between d-day #1 and d-day #2, through his resentment of me for at least six months after that, through his long drawn out withdrawal (when btw he told me that what kept him from resuming the A with her was his responsibility to let her get on with her life - umm, what about your wife and kids who you just sent to hell?), through his continued infrequent contact with OW for business reasons which went on for 9 months after the end of the A, through more lies and half-truths, through his various phases of "I need to move out and be alone to think things over", through all of that thick, alien fog. Oh, boy were things UGLY.<P>Yet, here we are, three weeks from the one year anniversary of d-day #1, living in the same house, rebuilding our M, with me having done it alone for about 10 months and him joining in only very recently, our children have survived the initial trauma without long term damage (we think), and we are committed to doing everything we can to rebuild a better M than we had ever imagined. Of course, all of this has come at a cost, to everyone involved (but permanent separation has its costs too), and the story is far from complete. But, I would never have thought, when we were where you and your H are that we would still be together today, fighting to remain a family, working at being a happy family.<P>Talk to Jenn about plan A and plan B. Come up with a plan of action and follow it religiously. Execute the plan you come up with as perfectly as you can, for as long as you can. It does actually work.<P>Plan A worked for me and many others on these boards. Plan B has worked for yet others, such as BrambleRose very recently.<P>I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that you keep posting your vents here. Remember that your H is completely fogged and venting at him does absolutely no good - it falls on deaf ears, he will only use it against you, and you won't even feel good about it. People here, on the other hand, will read you vent, will not judge, and will even try to help.<P>Your H just simply cannot fill any of your needs right now. It might be a while before he even makes like he cares what they are. It is wrong, it is hurtful, you do not deserve it, and he is being cruel. If you make a plan and work hard at implementing it, with the help of the Harleys, you can turn your M around. Then he will care, will acknowledge the hurt he has caused and will want to work with you to make things right.<P>------------------<BR>Never give up. Never, never give up.<BR>~ Winston Churchill<BR><p>[This message has been edited by OneDay (edited August 08, 2001).]

Thank you Oneday. I wanted to mention that I printed out your post the other day about "what I learned", it really inspired me. My H actually printed it out for me and delivered it to me this morning.<P>I just feel like a doormat. At what point do I say "enough is enough"? I have broken past this point, at least 6 times. Oh, if my H does THIS, that's it - I'm serving him papers. Then I come here and I'm not sure anymore. Why is that a good thing? My husband will continue to walk all over me if I don't make it stop. At this rate, my husband will have multiple affairs/etc over the lifetime of our marriage, he will just keep hurting me, but I'll just keep TAKING him back or trying to work it out. I have no backbone.<P>I don't feel love for my husband anymore. I think of him and it makes me crindge. I can feel myself starting to despise and loath his very being. I know exactly what is happening, but all attempts by me to prevent this have failed.<P>I have been in plan B 3x, all three times my husband has gotten past my guard. He later uses plan B against me saying I was just trying to hurt him, or it means I don't want him, whatever. HE adamantly refusing any type of visitation agreement, so basically I either adhere to his every whim regarding him seeing the kids, or else they don't see their dad. You can't do that in plan B. I don't believe plan B can have the effect it is meant to if your husband just does not understand what you are doing (no matter how hard you try to explain). <P>Thank you for your post though. I still don't know what I am going to do in the morning. Just be happy and "pretend" everything is fine. Show my H how much I am hurt, but just don't talk about it. Try to avoid him?<P>Hopefully I can talk to Jenn next week and she can help. Hopefully my husband talking to the counselor tomorrow will help as well...<P>HbH

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:<BR>[B] But, why does he have to tell people that he is ending it with her "for the kids" and not for me???[B]<P>Because that could very well be how he is feeling right now. He's afraid of the commitment to you (just as you are to him, or else you wouldn't be asking advice, right?). Would it help you to focus on the fact that he's ending it, period? And how is it that ending it with her is for the kids? Because it means he'll be working on the marriage with you, for the kids.<P>[B]I am sorry my husband resents me, I truly am, but what could I do??[B] <P>There is nothing you could have done, if he didn't tell you he was resenting you. On the other hand, you could have looked into some courses on mind reading... I'm sure it might have worked. (sorry... sarcasm comes out in full force in the late night hours for me).<P>[B]And why does the OW get to think everything is fine and that she was perfectly justified in what she did? Why can't she feel like my husband dumped her for me? That's what he did to me!!! Why can't he hurt her like he has hurt me all these years??[B]<P>You are totally justified in thinking and feeling that way. I'm right with you on that one. But something you have to do for your own peace of mind: you have to learn to accept that he may NEVER look at her as a bad person in all of this. He may always have a special place in his heart for her (kind of how you may for an old high school friend or something).<P>I know all too well how much I would love to know if OW#1 is hurting b/c my H is with me and she's stuck to deal with her own H (such a shame, isn't it?). The truth of the matter is that we'll probably never know. We have to stop giving them our emotional power, and direct that energy into positive and constructive means for our marriages. (another one of those easier said than done things).<P>It can get better though. It was the same for me and my H, where he wanted to end it his way. He eventually did that. It took a few weeks longer than he said originally (I found emails that they had exchanged), but the point of the matter is that it DID end.<P>Even now, over 2 months into recovery, I still have some doubts about my H. No one can blame me for that, not even him. He has given me many reasons to have those doubts. But I also know, that he is now focusing on us, and meeting my needs, and each day, those doubts are diminishing.<P>I can hardly believe the changes I've seen in my H in the last month or so (is it ironic that the changes starting taking place after 3 weeks had passed where he had no contact whatsoever with OW#1? I think not! grin).<P>You obviously need some time for you. You at least need some time away from your situation involving your H's A. Unless you can talk to him about it in a totally non-LBing way (using the rules from here), my suggestion is to let it go for a few days. If your H is coming over to spend some time with the kids, try to enjoy that for what it is. Family time together. <P>Karen<P><BR>

Thank you Karen. You have made me think about alot of things. You are right, my husband may never think of her as a bad person and may always "love her". She is the devil's own and does not deserve this.<P>I cannot and will not accept this. I refuse to live in her shadow. I don't care if I have my husband/marriage or not. <BR>That is my problem, that is why this bugs me so much. I don't want my husband if he is going to keep a special place in his heart for her, at my expense.<P>So, you are right, I need to find out if this is the case and deal with it. Thank you for enlightening me. It is just not something I am capable of accepting.

Right now your H claims he loves her. There is some truth to that. And it is possible that you may never hear him say anything bad about her.<P>But again, things can get better. It was only last night that my H told me that it obviously wasn't 'true love' with OW#1. We had been talking about the 'crap' after he had told me (without any coaxing from me whatsoever) that he loved me, is in love with me, that I"m his best friend and can understand him better than anyone, etc. It was me who veered the conversation onto the other women, primarily OW#1. <P>I told him how confused I was that he had told me that he was in love with her, and now he doesn't even think about her (unless of course, I bring her up). How could someone be so in love one day, and not think about that person within a few weeks after that? That's when he said to me that it probably wasn't true love to begin with then. It took about 2 1/2 months into recovery before he could tell me that! And you know what? I bet he told me sooner than most other WS's could.<P>He still can't say anything bad about her. He still rationalizes her actions and reactions towards me as 'defense' for whatever tricks I pulled on her. The only thing is, that my 'tricks' were only telling the truth about them (the fact that I did so in a public forum and she lost a good number of friends because of it.. oh well!). Too bad for her that the truth hurts. In fact, I'm glad.. and I hope it has made her life miserable.<P>Sorry for venting in your thread here... but I obviously need to get this out too (grin). (note to self: STOP GIVING THAT WHORE POWER!!!).<P>Okay. Done. (for now??? grin).<P>Now, you say that you cannot accept that he may always love her in some way? Then why are you here? You know how the EN's work, right? The love bank? I know you do. All the OW did, was fulfil your H's EN's when you couldn't, or he wouldn't allow you to. It just means that she hasn't been able to LB to him enough for that love to be gone. I don't know if she will or not, but should she contact him again, and if he really told her that he needed her to stop doing that 'for the kids', then that will be the start. Keep that in mind. (OW#1 LB'd in H's books bigtime after she replied to me with a NASTY email, telling me to 'get a ****ing life' after I wrote her nicely, asking her to stop contacting my H - another something he told me last night).<P>Karen<BR>

I'm a long time lurker. After reading this thread, I thought I would share with HBH my Unsent Letter to the OW, entitled Be Gone, Bi***. This letter helps me deal with my anger towards her, and I hope it helps you too.<P>Memo to Other Woman:<P>I can't even bring myself to write your name. Your presence in my life, in my home, in my brain, is eating me alive. You cheat on your husband and deceive your children. You are truly the pond scum person I suspected you were when you were friends with [a close female friend of mine] all those years ago [before the A]. Your influence on her was so blatant and transparent – we all saw the way she behaved under your influence, and it was despicable.<P>I don't know why you feel obliged to suck people into your cynical world, and make them say things and show behaviors that are foreign to themselves. I have no doubt you used those behaviors to suck in a depressed [WSO] and gave him hope that you would leave your husband and marry him. You gave him presents that were personal, rings, and who knows what else. Well, I don't know, but you and he both know. What were you thinking? You know you never planned to consummate that relationship, you just used him to make you feel loved and wanted. It's a game for you, and you have now played it with 2 of the most important people in my life.<P>I've had enough of you. The business cards, the butterfly patches – these were your way of rubbing my nose in your illicit and ****ed up relationship with [WSO]. He apparently ate them up with a serving spoon, and would have walked on fire for you. And then you had enough and found another man, once you realized all your objectives with him.<P>He was a stupid fool and you are the lowest form of life anywhere. I can't even insult pond scum again by comparison. Get your sick and twisted influences out of my house and my life and be gone. Go suck some other unfortunate soul's d**k and stay away from the [my neighborhood] completely so I can regain my own sanity and get my life back. I'm incredibly sorry that you have had any influence on me as well – your actions and his managed to suck my brain out with my heart, leaving me stupid and heart broken. It's a feeling that won't go away until you are completely gone, and maybe not even then. I find myself in complete meltdown, unable to do anything, more times than I care to admit.<P>I need an exorcism of your destructive spirit from my house. Be gone, b***h. Everything about you must be removed – the emails, the poems, the letters, the gifts, the business cards, everything with your fingerprints, your name, your warped and perverted touch. Be gone forever so I can be myself again.<BR>

Thanks commonlaw - maybe I will write up my own letter to OW...<P>I am pretty sure OW called my husband last night and that is why he ended it with her. He said "I wish I would have gone with you to the barbecue cuz' then I would have missed going through that horrible experience."<P>It was the first time they had talked in 2 weeks and since he had told me he had agreed to end it...<P>I asked about no contact and he said, yeah I told her, well not exactly like that. She asked if they could still see each other casually and he said no. It's all or nothing and that wouldn't work. He said the conversation wasn't very long but she was upset. (yeah, good, good, good, good, oh and did I say good??)<P>So, I guess I don't feel so bad. He was not going to go to the counselor today and I ended up taking the day out of work and took him there (he didn't feel good). He kept saying thank you for me doing that...<P>Then we talked about us and he says we are going to start dating casually on Saturday (we have plans). I said, that doesn't make sense (he just got through telling OW it was all or nothing, yet, I guess I have different rules??), I asked if that mean we are exclusively only dating each other? He says yes. ???<P>He just kept saying, it doesn't matter cuz' we're over. (meaning him and OW).<P>Weird. So, I'm not WITH my husband and can't tell anyone we're working on the marriage, but we're casually dating now exclusively...<P>Karen, thanks for the kick in the a** by the way. I am here based on the pretense that someday my husband will see the affair for what it really was. I really don't think I could live with him if he kept a piece of the OW in his heart like she was some goddess. But, I understand what you are saying, it may take a long time for him to realize that...<P>It still hurts though. I cried alot today and was visibly distressed when with my husband. I tried, but love songs were coming on while we were eating, etc. <P><BR>

IMHO, Your H is copping out in the so called blame game. My H tryed this also. All hell broke lose then, We are now rebuilding and things are going well. If you allow him to essentially push the blame for the affair onto you, then he does not have to feel the guilt over what he has done! And he is the one who is wrong. If there where problems within your marrige, it was his responsibility to come to you to work them out, not anothher woman! He needs to push her completely out of your marital equation and deal with the reality of what devastation HE has caused. GOD BLESS AND KEEP YOU!!!

Glad to be of some a**kicking service to you my dear! <P>Karen

HBH - trying to catch up here.<P>Based on many, many posts from former WSs on the forum, it sounds like your H is still following the script perfectly. This is normal stuff before getting down to the humble phase. Jenn should back this up. All of these excuses (for the kids, not you) is because he's not yet ready to voice the full reasons. Just like he needed lame excuses for having the affair in the first place, he needs them now to end it.<P>Please support him and validate his feelings. Your feelings are justified, but you still have to be the giver now. OK?<P>WAT

Thank you WAT. You are right, I need to be the giver now, I will keep trying, it is so hard when you hear all these horrible things coming from your husband and directed at you. I have to remember, MOOSE BRAIN WORMS!!<P>I hope my saga is helping SOMEONE out there. I never read anything on this site about the BS going through the blame game as bad as I have. You think that once they start to re-commit that the moose brain worms have dissipated, but it takes a while for them things to work their way out!!!<P>I have been reading "the control trap" by Barbara Sullivan. It is a good book and does help because one of the things I do realize is that I was controlling/manipulative before the A occurred. BUT, I am definately the LEAST controlling out of all my friends, and I definately did NOT know I was doing it or how it was perceived by my husband until now. I think this will have a major impact for both of us. I just wish my H would have chosen a different way of bringing this to a head instead of going and having an affair...<P>I think that had very little to actually do with it though, but it will be nice to change and modify this behavior. I think most of it has to do with things going on inside my husband that he needs help for, and he's getting it, so I can't complain...<P>My H has been much better since the counseling appointment. We still argued a bit because he said I told him that if he didn't end it with OW by the time school starts that I was moving far away and taking the kids with me!!! First of all, it was HIS suggestion that I move so he could FOLLOW me and get away from OW. Second, he told me it's been over for the past 5 weeks, so why would I threaten him with this If I thought it was over? (he was waffling in his head and telling me something else)... Maybe he is just using this to justify him ending it with her... Hmmm... Thanks for the tip. I told him I would have love to have had the balls to threaten him like that, so, what the hell, let him believe what he wants...<P>We have our "date" tomorrow/Sunday. That should be a blast. He keeps telling me "don't worry, everything is fine and will be alright".<P>Tonight I went out with some friends and he called 3x to find out if I was home yet and he left me a note in the door telling me that he came by and wanted to let me know everything was fine and that I shouldn't worry so much. It feels nice to see he cares...<P>And don't worry, I'm not letting him blame me one bit for the affair. I do agree I participated in things BEFORE the affair, but I frequently tell him that the affair was all HIS and OW's doing - not me. I am very clear on this, but that's for making sure I don't waffle here. <P> <BR>HbH

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:<BR><B>I just wish my H would have chosen a different way of bringing this to a head instead of going and having an affair...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen, Amen, Amen.<P>Isn't this the crux of almost all BS thoughts?<P>Dave

....I just wish my H would have chosen a different way of bringing this to a head instead of going and having an affair...<P>I can understand the sentiment, the what if, coulda, woulda, shoulda, that we humans all like to torment ourselves with.....but I suspect few (and certainly not me) ws set out to have an A, or do so as a concious attempt to illuminate a marital problem. Rather the A is a normal and predictable consequence of human behaviour. That behaviour being the human propensity to form relationships with the opposite gender. It is only an A cause of labeling, we impose cultural expectations on our social organizations, marital customs being the body of expectations and behaviour we try to organize this relationship forming with. An A is a simple outcome of a complex psychological mix of the individuals involved, and the nature of the existing relationship (marriage). IMO A happen cause they must, the nature of being human demands it, it is only in hindsight would we do something different (as would I). IMO the frequency of affairs is not about a moral breakdown, or a division of people into responsible or irresponisible labels, but rather a wake-up call to the woeful job we do educating our children in human psychology and behaviour, as well as the lack of adequate social controls on entering (or leaveing) marriage. <P>So what does this all mean? That one should just say oh...an A.... perfectly understandable.... No, of course not. Still hurts, but I am saying the focus (as does MB so say) must be on successful efforts to uncover the root causes and act responsibly on them. That is why I will probably never feel guilt or remorse, and why efforts to make ws feel same generally backfire, and focus on that is not good, and feels controlling (cause it is controlling). I know why the A happened, I know I did not initially seek, or consider it a possibility when the friendship developed. I know I violated my own morality, and now I know why. There was a conflict between my learned morality, and the realities of being a human being, and when it all added up, the A won. That will never happen again, cause now I understand how it happens, and the price is too high, so my cognitive awareness will not allow a repeat, I would divorce first.<P>Your H could not get your attention first, cause that is not how it works, the A was how he got your attention (in reality terms), it has had an affect no other attention getting device could have, it is mother nature at her worst (or best depending on how you look at it), and was exactly what was needed. I think maybe if bs look at an A as a tremendous opportunity it might help some to mitigate the pain.

SNL - I can't disagree more with you on this. The temptation and attraction to the opposite sex is normal, but the betrayal requiring deception and dishonesty is not.<P>I would counter your argument further by taking it to it's logical extension: if affairs are normal, then lies and dishonesty is normal, so then must be crimes and other uncivilized behavior - chaos would be normal and our civilization could not have flourished.<P>Sure, making mistakes is a fact of life, but continuing to live a lie is a perpetual mistake, which requires a certain amount of conscious effort to keep from facing the fact that a mistake has been made. Continued deception of one's self cannot be "normal."<P>WAT