Well it is certainly possible I am in a fog. But even before A, I have um....... somewhat different philosphical opinions than many on various subjects. I am more a realist than an idealist, and therein lies some of the difficulty methinks.<P>wat....SNL - I can't disagree more with you on this. The temptation and attraction to the opposite sex is normal,<P>snl...Ok, but it is more than that, it is life itself. It is like saying foos is desireable, then locking up a starving man for "stealing" someone elses food...should he just die? Maybe there were other options, but at that moment in time he did not see them.....does that make him immoral? It all depends on intent. That is why one can never concoct a set of moral rules to judge against.<P>wat...but the betrayal requiring deception and dishonesty is not.<P>snl...the deception and betrayal are not generally the best solution, but rarely is this a plan, it is more a response to the exigent circumstances. Don't misunderstand, I am dead set against any pre-planned affair type activity, and I would expect that once an affair reaches full-blown relationship status, the affairees should recognize that.... Houston....we have a problem. I don't understand those who maintain long-term, and/or multiple affairs. Likewise the starving man above will try to conceal his theft, for obvious reasons.<P>wat...I would counter your argument further by taking it to it's logical extension: if affairs are normal, then lies and dishonesty is normal, so then must be crimes and other uncivilized behavior - chaos would be normal and our civilization could not have flourished.<P>snl...Yes, lies are normal, and dishonesty is oft times in the eye of the beholder, the underlying driving force for human behaviour is survival, and that must be satisfied before any moral choices make any sense. Many moral choices don't, are just philosophical deadends proposed by those ignorant of human behaviour. We (humanity) have experiemted with, and discarded many moralities over the millenias. Marriage (as we know it) will soon follow, I doubt it will last more than another 100 years, 200 at most. <P>wat...Sure, making mistakes is a fact of life, but continuing to live a lie is a perpetual mistake, which requires a certain amount of conscious effort to keep from facing the fact that a mistake has been made. Continued deception of one's self cannot be "normal."<P>snl...I agree wholeheartedly. If I ever have an affair again I would philosophically support a law that incarcerates for life, anyone having more than 1 affair. A harsh consequence, but effective in removing from the gene pool unstable individuals (also their children if any are not allowed to reproduce).<P>I am feeling philosophical again, and have been musing over many of the bs feelings, as well as my own re affairs, so perhaps I will do a post sometime. I hesitate somewhat in deference to peoples feelings, my analytical efforts are troubling to some, but it is how I cope. I am trying to find commonground with my w, so I appreciate responses to my particular way of coping, thx for yours. My w has to deal with these efforts for hours on end, day after day, she is doing pretty good with it, although occassionaly she just gets an awful look on her face and says maybe she should just divorce me. Still it is the most she has ever listened to me in decades, and I kinda like it (talking with her).<P>

Hi SnL, I understand what you are saying, but, no matter what was happening in the marriage before the A, it does not and cannot ever justify the A. It makes it easier to understand the how and why's, but not all people that feel like that go and have affairs, so it's not cause/effect. The way the WS CHOSE to deal with the problem, by giving in to their desires and no longer thinking of the hurt/pain they will cause the person they pledged their life to is wrong and is something the WS must take responsibility for. <P>It was wrong because of the immense pain and suffering it caused all involved. Period. Accept that as one of the many mistakes you have probably made in your life, forgive yourself, help your wife to forgive you and move on. To continue to try and justify how it was "okay" for you to do it, because of society or WHATEVER will just prolong the time it takes for you and your wife to heal. <P>My husband is going through similar things as you right now, so it is nice to hear your prospective. I hope you can understand mine. Your wife did not DRIVE you to the other woman, she did not force you to let her meet your needs and she did not force you to have sex with her or lie to your wife to cover it up. It was all you and the OW's doing. <P>Yes, I know it FEELS like you had no control and it was human nature at the time, but you DID. You CHOSE to go down the wrong path. At some point in all this you must have said to yourself "I know this is wrong and hurting my wife, but it feels so good and so right, I have to keep doing it." That's where the lies and deception comes in. I KNOW this is how my husband felt because he TOLD me as the affair was happening (when it was still EA and he was living at home). The addiction had such a powerful control over him and he just didn't have the willpower/morals to stand back and say "STOP!!". <P>No matter how good the affair felt or how "right" it seemed AT THE TIME. It was the wrong course of action to take. We ALL screw up at some point in our lives, so you just need to accept it and get over it.<P>Even if it brings your marriage to places it's never been before and you are the happiest two people alive, IT WAS WRONG. You could have gotten to that same place using other means. Yeah, you didn't, so we all need to accept it and move on, but having an affair wasn't the ONLY action that could have made you marriage better.

Had to jump in, this is soo close to what happened to us after his A.<BR>He didn't like me either...NOW a year later, he knows it was himself he didn't like. <BR>He said all the right htings at first and when the going got really tough, he began contact with her by phone and computer because he didn't think we were going to make it and he didn't want to be alone.<BR>He lied about contact for 3 months and finally ended it because he realized he was getting right back into it and NOW didn't want to...if he had wanted to,he would have.<BR>He didn't tell me about the conatct and never would have if I hadn't snooped on the computer but I knew something had changed. <BR>A year later, he realized it was ALL a justification, the A, his anger at me, his dislike of me,ALL OF IT.<P>He wanted me to take some of the blame for the A,at first.Kept asking me what percentage I thought I owned.Sounds like that;s where your H is.And his attitude was "hey, I'm home, what else does my W want?"<P>When he ended the continued contact, I imagine he told her many of the same things your H says that he did. WE called her together, in March, when she didn't know I was on the phone. Because she kept rying to get back in, because she felt they were star crossed lovers, soulmates, kept apart by ME, as the evil whatever. He never told her he never loved her and it kept her going.He didn't want to hurt her more than he had to, but he did when he let her think they had "true love" still<P>He called her and I listened in. Dday was Aug 20,00 and the contact ended Nov 10.AND her calls have stopped. Hopefully, your H will reach that point, after the anger passes and clarity has a chance to grow. I have to say that I would want to be a silent listener on ANY phone conversation my H ever has with her. NO MORE SECRETS, I need to know what he says to her.<P>If she calls him, I'll have him call her back but I want to HEAR it. Maybe it's sick on my part and I know the right thing to do is not respond. BUT I'd love to hear him tell her what he REALLY thinks of her now that he is back to the man he wants to be again.<P><BR>