Hi guys.<P>Signed separation agreement yesterday. It really upset me. W didn't seem too bothered.<P>Took step-daughter to get a new bike yesterday after work... That was great. I had already decided that I was going to leave before W got home (SD's grandmother is visiting so SD would not be alone) but she got there before I could leave. Earlier, I had briefly talked with SD about maybe me coming over to help her get ready for 1st day of school on Thursday morning. I decided to talk to my W in private about it.<P>She immediately says it's a terrible idea and that it's not going to happen. I ask why not, she says it gives the wrong impression, that we're doing things together, the three of us, when we are supposed to be separated.<P>It turns out that she talked to her new therapist (been 3 times now) about this very subject almost exclusively the whole time yesterday at their appointment. The result is that W wants me to keep good relationship with SD, but completely separate from her (W).<P>She has reneged on our agreement that I will come to relieve babysitter after work until W can get home so I can spend time with SD, go over homework, etc. She now says I can "schedule" time with SD, but she wants me to interact with her as little as possible, and certainly not the 3 of us.<P>This is completely against everything we previously discussed. We told SD that I would be there to see her in the afternoons. I think that's what helped her to cope with the separation more. This is also a point that helped me to come to agreement with the separation. I would have not agreed to it if it had been presented like this before.<P>Funny how the timing is right on the heels of signing our agreement... I tried to get her to put visitation with SD in the agreement, but she cannot grant that legally without the consent of her XH, and she did not want to involve him in this, which I agreed to.<P>She told me that she felt like I was still always there. Apparently it's not enough that we live apart; it bothers her that I am there with SD when she gets home. Therapist said she should be taking care of child care issues without my help, for her own benefit.<P>W asked me: didn't I understand? She is having an A with someone else who she is in love with. (Day before said she "thinks" she is in love with OM.) She said she wants complete separation from me. Says she wants out of marriage. Said she would not divorce today, given the option, but wants to wait the year to see where we are, but does not want to work on M with me in any way right now. Just wants me gone, out of her hair.<P>She is sort of Plan B-ing ME!<P>How did this happen? A week and a half ago, she gave me glimmers of hope, talked about how it was possible, considered the possibility of moving and starting over, was excited about my apartment and wanted to help me decorate it...<P>She goes on trip with OM, comes back, total fog. Wants to me to be out of her life.<P>Lexxy, if you've read this... does it all sound on target? I read something you wrote recently about how the WS wants us to Plan B, really so that they can make their own choices...<P>Thanks to all,<BR>zen

zen:<P>The OM's hand in this can be clearly seen, though you can expect your wife to deny that.<P>As far as time with SD: take whatever time you can get right now, tell her that you wish you had more time to spend, but you are respecting her mother's wishes.<P>Prayers and thoughts with you,<BR>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hi Zen:<P>Sounds like a classic case of a confused wife wanting to end her confusion by removing herself from the source of the confusion....in other words....if she doesn't have to see you, talk to you....deal with you in anyway then she thinks it will make it easier on her....reverse Plan B so to speak.<P>All this would be quite clearly the activities of a wife who wants out of the marriage if it weren't for the fact that she apparently is not eager for a divorce. This indicates to me still some confusion as to what she really wants...although right now she thinks she wants OM....and she trying to give that relationship the best chance to survive it can...by limiting her contact with you. Sure it sucks....but I don't think you should give up hope.<P>Perhaps this is just a time for pulling back and respecting her wishes....setting her free (per Dr. Dobson) because you may not have any other choice and to graciously accept her wishes...while letting her know that you still love her and will be there if she decides it's not what she wants...may be the least LB way to handle the situation.<P>I think we often think that the only way to influence our WS is to be with them...trying to convince them of our worth...in their face so to speak...but I've found that a lot of thinking still goes on absent our presence....the key is to prepare yourself so that when we are in their presence we reflect the safe comfortable environment that she may need at some time in the future.<P>My one question is how marriage oriented your wife's counselor is...her advise seems to be supportive of your wife's continuing to be on her own...perhaps this is just indicative of your wife's needing to be stronger herself but it does sound strange.<P>Anyway, I know this is not good news for you...but sometimes continued exposure to OP is the best in the long run...because the cost of this involvement has got to be great for your wife...and she'll soon find out if he's worth it or not.<P>Faye

One week (day, hour, etc) she is committed to her future with you.<P>The next week (day, hour, etc) she is committed to her future with him.<P>And I suppose whatever is taking place in her life at that time will dictate what place she is in. If you are LB'ing she is more likely to be committing to him. If things are going particularily good with him she will be committing to him.<P>If for some reason he is LB'ing.....you'll start looking better. Your SD could play a role there too if she becomes unhappy about missing you. <P>Just my thoughts......

Thanks STL and Buffy - I really appreciate your help.<P><B>All this would be quite clearly the activities of a wife who wants out of the marriage if it weren't for the fact that she apparently is not eager for a divorce. This indicates to me still some confusion as to what she really wants...</B><P>Yep, she certainly believed last night (and maybe today too) that she wants out. She told me as much. Of course, she's told me this before, then said later that she doesn't know what she wants and that she hopes I'm not taking our separation to mean an automatic divorce. She'll probably keep reversing from here on out. STL, my therapist commented that she certainly gains steam in wanting out when she spends lots of time with OM. She's also the kind of woman (Zorweb mentioned this yesterday) that doesn't seem to be able to be alone, on her own... she always needs someone there supporting her. So much for her "figuring things out on her own."<P><B>Perhaps this is just a time for pulling back and respecting her wishes....setting her free (per Dr. Dobson) because you may not have any other choice and to graciously accept her wishes...while letting her know that you still love her and will be there if she decides it's not what she wants...may be the least LB way to handle the situation.</B><P>Yep. Pulling waay back. I can't figure out though how and if I need to keep reminding her that I love her. It seems to backfire; she already knows that I do. Also, won't she sort of take this for granted and disrespect me for it? (Lexxy - thoughts?)<P><B>the key is to prepare yourself so that when we are in their presence we reflect the safe comfortable environment that she may need at some time in the future.</B><P>Very well put. I think I was doing a pretty good job of this but have faltered a tad lately...<P><B>My one question is how marriage oriented your wife's counselor is...her advise seems to be supportive of your wife's continuing to be on her own...perhaps this is just indicative of your wife's needing to be stronger herself but it does sound strange.</B><P>This is a MAJOR issue that you have nailed. I asked her what therapist thought of her situation and our marriage. She said that therapist is focused on helping her fix herself, and that she sees my W as someone who is unhappy and wants out of her marriage, i.e. she is not at all going to take the approach of trying to fix the M. Now I know there are different styles of therapists, but how many support escaping or getting out of a marriage that is clearly non-violent, based on love and commitment, and certainly fixable? I also heard some warnings from others about this therapist... that in a similar case she did not in any way cultivate the idea of healing the M. I asked her what her therapist thought about her A with OM, and she said that she knew about it, but that they really didn't focus on that. This therapist could turn out to be a BIG hindrance to my W's growth... Of course, I can't say anything about that...<P><B>sometimes continued exposure to OP is the best in the long run...because the cost of this involvement has got to be great for your wife...and she'll soon find out if he's worth it or not.</B><P>You're absolutely right. I told her last night, if that's what you want to do, go for it. Don't expect me to be happy about it, but know that I want you to make your own decisions. This guy is bad news. I hate to sir back and watch someone I care so much for do this to herself, and of course, to me, but I can't control that. I'm going to focus on taking care of SD, and scale back trying to fill W's EN's. I will still be caring, compassionate, and will interject Plan A ops when I can, but this marks a change. Sort of cooler Plan A, not quite to B stage yet... And of course still work on myself...<P>Thanks so very much,<BR>zen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I will still be caring, compassionate, and will interject Plan A ops when I can, but this marks a change. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Zen,<BR>Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, here, so others? Please feel free to jump in at any moment if I'm way off base here! What about continuing to Plan A SD? I mean, this poor kid must be feeling "lost in the shuffle" of Mom's Infidelity Dance....<P>As long as SHE knows you are "there for her" even if by letter, then she will be grounded, and "connected" to you, which could *grate* on OM, and cause LB'ing.<P>You can Plan A W as much as she will allow, but my concern is totally focused on SD. Don't know why I feel so badly for this girl, since I know absolutely nothing about her, but it seems to me that W is using her to "pull herself and your previous life" away from you! This leaves the girl feeling like a piece of property, who doesn't know WHO is going to be there for her!! You certainly don't want it to be OM. In fact, I have a *REAL* problem with that!<P>So, please be patient, Plan A both of your "women" as much as you can, and take good care of yourself, too!<P>MHO, FWIW.<P>:Lupo

L:<P>You aren't off-base.<P>Zen: don't forget the SD is a victim in all this too; give her as much attention and love as you can.<P>As for your wife: the fog rolls in, the fog rolls out. Just keep up the Plan A for as long as you can. One never knows what will bring a WS out of the fog.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<B>I can't figure out though how and if I need to keep reminding her that I love her. It seems to backfire; she already knows that I do. Also, won't she sort of take this for granted and disrespect me for it? </B><P>Remember the dlm post I linked you to? Her H put a card in her car everyday! That may be too much for your W. But dlm's story really inspires me. Sometimes she ripped them up - sometimes she looked forward to them. <P>I think short notes, funny e-mails / e-cards, a Dobson/Plan A letter, a phone call every now and then... is the way to PlanA in separation. YOu have to take it real easy. but she does need to hear from you every now and then. Did you ever write that Plan A letter? I send about one e-card or one short "love" note each week. And I have recently realized I need to say more than I love you and I miss you. I've tried to describe why, and what I love and what I miss. The e-cards are only a light, friendly HI, have good day, thinking of you, kinda cards. Give her some space for a few days. YOu might even state in your first note, "I want to respect the space you want. I won't be pestering you. Please don't take my lack of communication as a lack of love or desire to reconcile. I love you, and believe we can work this out. I am here for you anytime you need to talk." something like that?? It's what I did, anyway, in my Dobson/Plan A letter, and it went over just fine. <P>just my thoughts. See how or if she responds to one or two. I bet she'll miss you pretty soon. <P>Try to enjoy your time alone, though, ok? Take care of yourself.<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 09, 2001).]

Hi Zen:<P>You seem to have a good grasp of what's happening with your wife...and probably don't need to overreact to what is happening with your wife right now. As STL said the fog ebs and flows and you'll wear yourself out trying to anticipate or react to each change. Remember you are the rock right now...steady, unmoving, reliable...the thing that she can count on {even if she can't appreciate it right now).<P>Although I like the idea of the Dobson like letter with the message that Faith suggested:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B> Original quoted by Faith1<P>"I want to respect the space you want. I won't be pestering you. Please don't take my lack of communication as a lack of love or desire to reconcile. I love you, and believe we can work this out. I am here for you anytime you need to talk." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Give her the note, message, etc. and then back off for a while. The cards might be a good idea but not at first...give her some space and a chance to miss you a little...then come back with your reasurance of your continuity. <P>I think you should continue to maintain your relationship with SD....she had nothing to do with your marriage relationship and deserves to be with you if that's what she wants....be careful, but protective of her with your wife. I think she will try to sever your ties to her...hold firm that that is not in the best interest of the child...etc.<BR>You have a continuing relationship with the child...she can't just end that without harming the child.<P>You don't have try to stop meeting your wife's EN (at least the one's she'll let you meet) but just need to be receptive to any chance she might give you....and I think these will come as she begin to miss you a little.<P>Faye<P>

Thanks again for your help... I've got a few questions for you...<P>lupolady and STL: Don't worry, I am completely focused on my SD. I went to see her last night and stayed for a few hours, leaving before my W got home (as she requested). SD asked if I was staying for dinner and I did stay while she and her grandmother ate since my W was not going to be home until 7:45-ish. SD did not want me to leave, we play this funny game where she basically attaches herself to my foot and won't let me go. I'm going to go see her this afternoon after school, again before W gets home...<P>I have not really "shifted the blame" to my W when talking with SD. When she says, "I wish you could stay" or "I wish you could come home" I've been saying that I wish I could as well, I haven't been pointing the finger at my W or anything. But I also haven't been taking the blame myself... I think she sort of knows I'm doing all I can...<P>Faith, Buffy, lupo, STL: Here's where I'm having trouble. I am going to continue to love/take care of SD as best I can, but I am very conscious of letting W do things I used to do, little things like taking care of school forms, big things like making breakfast, etc. My reasoning is twofold: 1) W needs to realize all I've done for them, and 2) W has paradoxically built resentment towards me for helping manage SD's life so successfully -- she needs to feel like she's fulfilling those responsibilities as a mom.<P>But what do I do with my W? She's made it clear that she read my Plan A letter (Yep Faith, I wrote it), knows what I want (her to end A, us to try to work on our M), and she has spoken that she does not want that. It seems that my recent Plan A attempts have done nothing but make her more and more uncomfortable. (Although they were working before she went on trip with OM.) This week she is pretty adamant about not wanting for us to have contact with each other, unless of course she needs something and she'll call me.<P>My gut says that cards, letters, really anything put forth by me will be met with disgust, aversion, etc. by her. But then I think about that story, Faith, and maybe that the way it's SUPPOSED to be... I don't know if I'm supposed to just press on and (feels like pestering her) or just back off and give her what she wants, which is chance to be with OM without me telling her I want her to stop and that I'm still there.<P>Maybe I'm regressing here, but I'm starting to feel like if I were to reject her, to take away my love as her safety net, she might react or respond.<P>OK, I know that's wrong, but how do I keep her from thinking I'm weak for still trying when she's telling me it's over and she's in love with OM... And that my weakness is just making me still push her and smother her, because I am unable to let go...<P>Wait.. I'm having a breakthrough... is it all in the attitude? Maybe I'm STRONG for still trying even when she tells me that stuff?<P>grrrrr- I'm confused. Need some time to think. Thanks for your help.<P>zen

Zen:<P>Your wife's reactions to your Plan A are normal. The anger you see is merely a redirection of her inner turmoil: the guilt, confusion, shame and other emotions that a WS must effectively diffuse in order to live with themself. This self-justification will lead to her making hurtful statements, invoking revisionistic history, etc. Just take that into account and continue the Plan A.<P>Thoughts and prayers with you all.<BR>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL (hope I haven't let you down as I feel like I've regressed after making headway a few weeks/months ago)-<P>I'm sensing that to continue much a Plan A with her is a LB at this point as she's asked me to stop... Do I keep doing it anyway? Just wait for chances?<P>zen

My only thoughts are, take it slow. I bugged the poo-poo out of my H at first. I was in my panic stage at first, but then, even for a while, I know I bugged him too much. He wanted his space. SO I backed off. Now that he seems more open, slightly remorseful (??perhaps??), seems the A is over, I feel less scared that I'm bugging him.<P>If your instincts are that she will be annoyed or see you as weak, then by all means, listen to your heart. I think if you take it slow, you will find a balance between bugging her and reminding her. Wait a few days before you do anything and see how this goes. Try a little light-hearted thinking of you note or e-card or e-mail once next week, and see if you get any resistance. I mean, we all want to be friends, so how can she really argue with a "thinking of you" or Have a good Day! or Hope you are doing well.... friendly thought? <P>See what the others say here.

Faith - You make me laugh!<P>Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I think there's room to interject a little "Thinking of You" here and there... Maybe... I dunno... She's just so got her mind made up it seems right now... I really think much of anything on my part will be perceived as weakness, unattractiveness, etc.<P>You know, when her XH made up his mind to leave her, that was it. He never looked back for one second... He was done. To this day, he avoids contact with her unless is has to do with his daughter. It's funny... before he did that, when my W was in the marriage, she said she was SO unhappy with him and their M... Since he decided to reject her so totally, she has in the years since I think become obsessed with the idea that that M should not have ended, even though she admits he was not good for her and even though he still to this day LBs! It's like she wants what she cannot have. And here I am saying, "Hey! You can still have me!"<P>zen

zen:<P>Think of this as a military campaign. As such:<P>1. Maintain contact with the enemy.<BR>2. Probe for information.<BR>3. Use gathered intelligence to fix enemy in place.<BR>4. Harass enemy often and keep them off-balance, look for weaknesses to exploit.<BR>5. Plan major offenses, but keep options open to shift axis of advance.<BR>6. Maintain a proper reserve, one that is poised to commit to exploit openings.<P>So how does this tie in with Plan A?<P>1. Keep up an overall Plan A by maintaining contact with your wife.<BR>2. Based on what you observe in her behavior and in your contact, begin implementing small Plan A measures (cards, etc. that you mentioned).<BR>3. Do not relent in the Plan A, despite her protests. Use discernment, however, on how much "pressure" to apply.<BR>4. Do EN fulfillment, love her unceasingly, and do the unexpected as far as Plan A-ing: small gifts, emails, etc. that emphasize your love and commitment to the marriage and to her.<BR>5. When appropriate, invite her out for dinner, major EN fulfillments, etc. Get-togethers ... sort of a "courtship".<BR>6. Maintain your reserves by venting here, gaining encouragement here, and rereading the material here. Use those "reserves" to continue the Plan A.<P>Hope this helps.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

just a question, for both of us, or for anyone else.....<P>Do you think the weakness and unattractiveness is what they see? Or is how you feel? Perhaps both? We can't change what they think, but we can change our attitude.<P>What we have to remember is that they are foggy. WS pledged their love to us. And now they've changed their mind. They "think" that just because they changed their mind, that we should agree, like calling a game a tie, and lets end it. No biggee. So sure - they would perceive ANY... I mean ANY action on our part as weak and unattractive "Don't you get it? it's over? I don't lvoe you anymore!! Stay away from me!" So what, we're supposed to roll over and pi$$ on ourselves? I don't think so. To me, THAT is weak and unattractive. <P>We committed through sickness and health. I think that me hanging on - for a reasonable amount of time - is holding up my end of the bargain. And I feel strong and ATTRACTIVE for doing so. WS may not think so right now. But you've seen enough WS's post on here THANKING GOD AND THEIR SPOUSES for not giving up on them in their time of confusions and weakness.<P>So... my question... I don't know? Just thinking out loud. I think as long as we don't bug the poo-poo out of them, we are doing the right thing. plan A is an attitude - more than action - TO ME. It's MY attitude toward the situation and learning about myself and how to love my H the way he needs me to RIGHT NOW - which is to give him space.

As I was reading your reply about your wife thinking you are weak for staying with your marriage I thought to myself "Who cares what she thinks? She's in the fog. Will she necessarily feel that way tomorrow, or next week or next month." What you're doing is right...the hard thing to do...walking away is much easier.<P>Then lo and behold you have an epiphany yourself:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B> OK, I know that's wrong, but how do I keep her from thinking I'm weak for still trying when she's telling me it's over and she's in love with OM... And that my weakness is just making me still push her and smother her, because I am unable to let go...<P>Wait.. I'm having a breakthrough... is it all in the attitude? Maybe I'm STRONG for still trying even when she tells me that stuff? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> </B><P>YES, YES, YES...Now you got it!!!!! <P>Faye<P>