I made giant leaps backwards last night...<P>I told him I am afraid to be with the boys...I am on the edge...NO I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO MYSELF OR THEM...but I can't focus...I feel like I am ignoring them...I am sharp with them...inattentive...they don't deserve either of as parents right now...this is not why I had children...this isn't why I got married...I WANT MY FAMILY BACK.<P>I told him that my mom went from one man to another w/no real 'break' and I won't do that...but that I neeeeeed to be close to someone...(we all know that it's him...)<P>I continued begging, pleading...talking until I was blue in the face...<BR>He referred to both OW and I as manipulative b******...guess he's not too happy w/her either...I made the grave mistake of laughing...I'm sorry if I am amused that she is turning out to be exactly what I said she was...He even said, "yeah, your right again...you're alway's right..." <P>we ended up in bed...I told him I was thinking what it would be like to sleep with someone else...cause I am...then we had sex...I HATE IT...I love it...I HATE IT...<P><BR>I feel like I am being drawn into the fog...confusion is reining in my life...I want order...I want control...I want focus...<P>I just want it all to go away...I just want it to stop...<P>I'm getting to the point where I don't want to be around him...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali, I just your post and I wanted to reply with at least something. I'm fairly new here, and i've posted some, but i've read more than posted,so here goes. Your not the only one who feels like your about to lose it big time!! i too have 3 boys and i girl. All under 11. This was suppose to be the best summer because their all at and age where we can do stuff without me having to nurse a baby. Not so!! this is the worst summer for me. My D-day was june 17th, but i knew way before than. I too cannot get ahold of my feeling of not wanting to be a mom to anyone, let alone my 4 kids. I have pushed them all away the last 2 months. I don't even want them to even touch me or come near me. And i know they need me, but i've got nothing to give them. I'm completely drained of everything. My mind, body and spirit need a MAjor time out!! I guess one could say i'm one of the lucky ones because my husband confessed early on and the A has been over since the end of April. BUt is it really? yeah he may be here but he really isn't. He's says all the right things but you know what?? i sure in the hell don't believe him. He is not backing up anything with words. And yes, like you, I am very lonely right now. To have someone to actual took an interest in me for once would be very welcome. Yes my H and i have sex but its the on;y affection i get, and i'm starting to lose even that for him. I'm almost at the point of telling him to move out and lets get a divorce. I know that sounds so harsh, but i am not staying in limbo land forever, and i'm never going back to the marriage we had before. He just doesn't get it. I guess for me, i'm more mad at myself than at him. Funny when you think about it. He had his cake and he ate it too. and when the OW broke it off with him, he knew that he could just say a couple of words and i'd let him back in my life. what an idiot i was. I made it soo easy for him. I basically weas like a dog and wet between my legs. Ya know? anyhow, i do know what part of what your feeling right now. PAytonrose

My dear Cali,<P>Hon, please listen to what I have to say. You know what is coming. You have seen others go through this and been there for them. It does feel worse when it is happening to you. <P>You feel like your world is crumbling out from under you and helpless to stop it. Your H is not saying good things about you and you don't like it. He is not liking himself much either at this point. Cali, you need to ground yourself and settle a bit. <P>Am I right so far with your feelings? If yes, please continue if no, then skip the rest........<P>Is your world crumbling? No, it just feels like it. Your situation is making you feel dizzy and disoriented. Just reading your post is making me feel dizzy. Ok, but I can (along with others) help steady you. Are you being a bad mom and want to give up? No, you are not a bad mom, but you are tired and being dizzy makes you wonder how can you be stable for your kids. Your children can help you get grounded and more stable. Hang in there, help is coming, just keep reading.......<P>Do you want to give up? Probably, I did. Did I, would I? The final answer is no. While I tried to put myself in H's position/viewpoint/shoes, etc. I could not. It was not in me to do what he did. It is just not part of my make up. Almost like forcing myself, I tried. I puked at the attempt. This thought helped ground me. <P>Now, I am going to share something with you that I helped me tremendously but will take time to absorb and settle before you can implment it and see benefit (for yourself first, then maybe your H). <P>After all was said and done about where my priorities were. At first I wanted to know all about the OW, what they did etc., then tell him how to fix himself (hm.... I mean the situtation), then tell OW where to go and how to get there.... I learned that my real real need was to get OW OUT OF MY LIFE. Even if that meant losing my H. Oh yes, I finally learned MY NEED, OW out of my life at all costs. For me that turned out to be more important than keeping a man who was going to leave me anyway. <P>So the question I ask you Cali is: Do you really want your H back as 1/2 a man or less than what you need? If yes, skip the rest of this post. If no, please continue. <P>There was my 2nd settling point, I needed my H back as 100% no less. Anything less was not acceptable and I told him that. <P>Now you need to realize that my H has done what your H is doing now. My H needed to realize that I meant business. Why? Because I took him back 2 times before..... My credibility was shot. Both he and OW felt I would always take him back...... <P>This time? Wrong. I did not want him back. And I was settled in my heart about it. When did this revelation hit me? About 3 weeks ago. Just before I kicked H out of the house. He went to live with OW for about 10 days. The first day out he asked to come home. I said no. Every time he showed anger to me, it made me see the need for him to stay out. His anger towards me was not because of me but because of his frustration with him and/or with OW. <P>As long as I did not have contact with H, I was somewhat settled. Yes, I had my moments of weakness and feeling loss. Frustration did set in but I comforted myself with the fact that OW was NOT in MY LIFE. <P>I became very weak when there was contact with H, even a phone call to say he wanted to come home. I resisted. It was hard. However, there were some people here who encouraged me to stay strong. I needed to if I wanted to heal. Not because they told me to, because I knew (like you do) what it would take for me to heal. <P>Eventually H's anger subsided. His requests to come home grew less but he still kept asking. He was getting more comfortable at OW's house yet he wasn't. Despite his condition, I still had a strong desire not to have OW in my life. This became my driving force. This thought sustained me. <P>For 4 days, he promised to leave her and come home. I did not beg him to come home, just wanted to know when. Eventually, I got tired of his broken promises and said, that's it, don't come back. I meant it. I was at the end of my patience. What was H doing in the meantime? According to him and OW, he was spiraling down to break up with her. In their weird way, he tried to let her down gently. You & I both know there is no gentle way to break up but he had to learn that the hard way. This woman is relentless even to this day. So there is no gentle way. I knew that but he refused to acknowledge that. But that was his problem not mine because I just needed to keep OW out of my life. <P>H has been home for 3 days. OW tried to talk to me and she supposedly even wrote down a list of things to tell me. I refused to give her an ear because again, I do not wish her to be in on my life telling me what to do or how to act towards her. I told H that I hoped she would eventually learn from this mess, not do it again and become a better person but as far as us talking, right now there is not too many others that rank as bad in my books for personal affronts to me than she. In fact she places #1 there right now and H is a close 2nd. Her I can exclude from my life but H can be forgiven depending on how much effort he makes. H has asked for that chance and is working on it now. Time will tell. I will not bet on all going well but will be pleasantly surprised if it does. <P>Cali, I tell you this so that you can see where to focus your thoughts right now. Honey, you need to cry, vent, rage but you also need to love your children. Let them give you the support and love you need. Be glad you have them. Yes you will need assistance. Use whoever is available for that. <P>Try to find your settling point. Remember this is your settling point not your H's. As you know he has to reconcile with himself then with you. You have to reconcile with yourself then with him. <P>If you have made it this far in the reading, I have a big<BR><<<<<HUG>>>>> for you. <P>If you want me to call, send me your #. I have a meeting tonight and will be home around 8pm PST. <P>Take Care,<BR>L. <BR>

Can I make a suggestion?<BR>When does school start?<P>I ask because: You took time off with your H, to take a vacation with him, w/out kids. Since D-Day you have not had enough time for YOU, alone, to sort out yourself.<P>I know the raging feelings, emotional swings in the family. . . So do you. You know we go through this, some of us more than others. Trust me, bad times can bring it out in the sanest of us. It does get better, you just have to wait it out. (Remember Mom sitting in the kitchen, by the table, alternating between sobbing and screaming, crying and throwing things?) <P>You are NOT on self-destruct. You are simply having a mood. And you certainly deserve to have a mood, if that's what you need at this point. You'll be fine, in the end, dear--keep that in focus. The women in our family always seem to make it through, you know?<P>My suggestion, from personal experience: When you are "having a mood," especially the snappy, short sort of mood--you need time for yourself. Have Grandma call up little G and ask him if he and his brothers would like to spend Friday night and a good part of Saturday with her and Grandpa. Ask her if she'll take them and spoil the hell out of them for a good 18 hour period. Because they're being invited to a "funny" with Grandma, they won't worry about you, won't feel like you're trying to get rid of them.<P>Tell big G he isn't really welcome at the house in that period of time. Tell him that just as he needs time away to gather himself, YOU need time to gather yourself. He can't squawk at that, can he?<P>After the kids have left, go to a dollar store. Spend about fifteen bucks on anything breakable. Go home, go into the back yard, and break the stuff. Not quickly, but one at a time. Drop it, hard. Stomp on it. Grind it into the concrete with the heel of your shoe. Remember, it's important to do this one piece at a time! Be methodical in your madness. . .<P>Then, go inside the house and cry, scream, or whatever makes you feel drained and tired. Take a bath, go to bed. You'll feel better in the morning, and when the kiddies come home you'll be able to look at them without wanting them to just go away. Really, I promise.<P>I can't offer you any promises, other than this:<BR>Regardless of how this all pans out, no matter what the outcome of the drama that has become your life: You'll be fine. Flossie's girls always are.<P>------------------<BR>I choose to hold hands, rather than point fingers.

Cali:<P>I empathize with how you are feeling: I felt that way as the BS, particularly with the kids.<P>It does eventually get better, one way or another. In the meantime, just as you are Plan A/B-ing your husband, give time to "Plan A" the kids. They are victims in all of this too, and don't have the outlet(s) you have: it manifests itself in their behavior.<P>The emotional stress of the situation will make you feel like you are currently feeling. It is only human; it is normal. I wish I had known about MB and had the benefit of all the wonderful folks here.<P>Hang in there. One day at a time, one step at a time.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Well for what it is worth, think your feelings are perfectly normal, and consistent with the stages folks go through in recovering from emotional injuries. First is the shock, numbness stage, as your emotional systems try to cope with the life threatening injury....then comes the lost stage, anger, etc.... My w is kinda in the lost stage, she is getting more productive, stuff done, but is forgetful and gets distracted easily, but before that we had the manipulative stage (what am I doing to the family, the kids, and how I am destroying her). This makes the ws very very angry, and rightfully so (IMO), but anyways we lash out with very hurtful stuff, calling my wife a b**** was one of the nicer things I said (I never call her names in any ways). Then we feel pretty bad, and figure it is just all over, and women aren't worth the effort (or men in the reverse). It is not a good place to go marsha, try really hard not to do this, and saying I told you so was (as you know) really bad, and it did set you back......but hey, the good news is, time heals this stuff if you just quit doing it before he is gone alltogether. And finding out he is becoming unhappy with the ow was a plus I guess.<P>Personally I would not have sex until rules of protection are in place (no contact with ow) tough love, and it must be used. In my case, I was the one who said no, cause IMO it was not right to have physical interactions with 2 women, and I had chosen the ow. My wife kept pressuring me after D for sex, but that was cause for next 4 1/2 months I lied and said was only ea. Now she wants nothing to do with me (so she says, but I am not so sure), that will sort itself out in time, no big rush. I wonder at your love/hate with sex. I think you know you should stop, and make H choose. But you want to keep some connection so continue, I think that is ill-advised in a human behavioural sense, sends wrong message to H. You have a delicate balancing act, you need (and recognize) the need to give up control (as in surrendered wife, which we just got my the way, and the secrets of vine book), and let your H decide how to proceed for better or worse, but you are weak (and confused?) with how far to go in holding him accountable. In my estimation (which may be worth nothing) your H is pondering something. He may have felt um.... like 2nd fiddle, you in charge, but now you have revealed the possibility you really do need him, just for being him. You have made yourself vulnerable, but everytime you start the "crap" he wonders if it is really true, and not just a game. This is what happens with my w, and I wonder the same things, is she for real? Also when she slips up and goes back to the "other" terry, I find myself getting really angry. We had a big fight yesterday morning. It started innocently, just talking, but she started making requests (demands), and the conversation started being about her. My attempts to get back to me (which was what it was supposed to be about) were rebuffed....anyways all went down hill, she said maybe she file divorce papers, I said excellent idea, she said you really don't care then, I said yep.... I verbally assaulted every such attempt at "reaching" me, cause it was all blatant woe is me manipulation. I left the house, she called in a little while and said sorry, and started arguing again!!!! All this cause I disclosed the pa a few days ago and she just can't "handle" that. I am suppose to be caring and sensitive...... but I am not, and I certainly don't want to be made to be so. I will in my own time, and I am in my own way.......do you see? <P>It isn't fair I know, but there is something about the bs saying woe is me, I need help, that makes the ws go ballistic. I don't have an answer for you, can only tell you this is what we feel, and we have little control over it. I think though it has something primitive to it, we want to be won back, choose to come back, we don't want to be guilted, guilt is a lousy basis for doing anything.<P>If you truly don't want him around, I think that is the criteria for plan B. Just look deep cali, be sure what is motivating you....you have done good, but from a um........ grading standpoint I would give ya a b-... room for improvement. What seems to be missing is staying power, and consistentcy.......I know it seems like forever, but your efforts do bear fruit, then you get eager (understandable) and become susceptible to LB (from disappointment). Have you truly given up control cali? Do you even want to give up that much control? And btw, don't let H manipulate you either, by LB he keeps you off balance, and by controlling how and when sex occurs he controls your relationship in an inappropriate way....but on the other hand, it sorta shows you are willing to give up some control...I dunno, sex is so confusing.<P>

Hey Cali,<P>I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Just wanted to let you know I'm here and praying for you.<P>Anna

Cali,<P>HHH probably has the only real option for you right now. You need to step back and breathe (literally and figuratively). You aren't likely to make good decisions in this state. (like PLAN B, or even Plan b-o-u-n-d-a-r-y). Put off doing anything else until you can regroup.<P>--Jeffers

I think the hardest thing in all this is that I am used to being 'normal.' I had an 'abnormal' chaotic childhood and I vowed not to let that happen to me...<P>I built (yes, I note the 'I') the family I always wanted. Two parents...kids...homework...family dinner...friends...career...I was always held up as the example (sorry, sisters...not that I wanted to be the yardstick...)...but after all that happened I just wanted normal...<P>I still just want normal. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want my children to choose between Christmas w/Mom or Thanksgiving w/ Dad. I don't want them to have to get used to stepparents (and, yes, I know there are good ones...my stepmother has been terrific to me).<P>And my heart is breaking...just shattering...yeah...SnL, I was just numb before...panicked...in despair...<P>And, yes, Holding Her Hand, little sister, I am in a mood...one worse than the rages, because the anger is gone...and all I feel is hurt. I look into the future and it is dark, black, bleak....where are all my hopes and dreams?<P>I wanted to grow old w/ him. And he is in LaLa land...He doesn't get what divorce will mean...I said I will not be "IN" your life anymore...and he didn't get it...I said I will NOT be YOUR family and he said "What do you mean? Why do you have to go all negative...why can't it be positive?"<P>Positive? My heart is being ripped out of my body and I'm supposed to like it? You have taken my something special and rendered it meaningless and I'm supposed to be 'a friend.' This is worse than if it had happened in HS...at least those relationships are of rather short duration considering...I have had 14 years with him...next week is our 12 year anniversary...<P>All I want to do is run away...It is probably the anniversary thing that has me tripping....I don't even have to play our wedding tape...even after this many years the ceremony is clear as a bell...I can hear his mom & dad singing...I can see him singing to me and me crying...I can feel the Lord's Prayer sung as the last song....and he keeps saying that it wasn't true...he just went along with marrying me because he thought it was the right thing to do...<P>Yeah, I know I am torturing myself. I am in a mood. We are broke...broke...broke...I am scrambling for sub jobs and extra duty to make it through September...and God forbid I show emotion about it...then I am accused of not changing of staying the same..."see, there you go...ranting and raving..." Then I start thinking, maybe I would be better off....how different would my life be really? <P>In two words...No sex. I already don't have affection. I don't have financial support. I won't even comment on Honest and Openness. Domestic support is sporadic. Family commitment is pretty good. <P>So there you are. Cali's in crisis. And, yes, little sis...we both know I will be okay...I just need a little private time to rant and rage...take a bath {just like Ann }...and sleep for a really long time w/out worrying that the boys are getting into something.<P>Well, this turned out to be quite the vent...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Hey there sis,<P>Don't you worry about that 'normal' comment. Normal is overrated. <P>I wanted to let you know that I'm still listening. No magic wands here.<P>Hugs and kisses.

Cali, I realized alot about both of us from reading that book I just suggested to you. "The Control Trap" by Barbara Sullivan.<P>Cali, you feel a need to control your husband AND your family because you want to try and protect them from what you went through when you were a child. You feel like YOU are the only one that can make this happen, so you try to control it and MAKE it happen. You need and must let GOD handle it. <P>If that means you end up divorced, so be it. It DOES NOT mean your children will live your life, IT DOES NOT!!! God, will take care of you and your children, just let him do it.<P>You cannot make your marriage work and you cannot protect your husband/children from your pain. The more you try to force this to happen, the MORE YOU WILL FAIL AND MAKE THINGS WORSE!!!!!<P>One of the biggest things you will need to do now is FORGIVE your parents for what went on when you were a child. I mean, really forgive them. Only, when you are truly able to do that will your heart lighten up and you will no lnoger feel the need to protect your children/husband/yourself from that life, only THEN will they truly be protected because it won't have such a huge impact on you anymore. <P>Just so you know, I am there too. I was molested as a child (7) and my parents "covered" it up and just threw my uncle out of the house. We never spoke of it again because it was a "shameful thing" that happened. I have always harbored anger at my parents/mother for not taking that man to court, or doing SOMETHING for me. I should have been put into counseling, they should not have tried to hide it from the world (it lasted anywhere from 6 months - 1 year). <P>That feeling of NO control has passed into my adult life and I feel like I needed to control my life and the people in it. I was not able to control what happened to me as a child, so damnit, I would control what happened when I was an adult, and I would protect my children/family from harm, NO MATTER WHAT. But, you know what? I can't DO that. I can't protect my children/family by controlling them. Yes, I can advise and help them, but they need to make their own mistakes and if that means something horrific happens to one of them (it happens to everybody), then we let God help us deal with it and we move on. Sheltering a child from pain for their entire life doesn't help them learn to deal with it. If they don't DO anything wrong, they won't know the value of doing anything right...<P>Also, because of both our pasts, we BOTH have difficulties trusting men. That is part of the control, if we control them then we don't have to worry about getting hurt because we know what they will do. It is the FEAR of the unknown that makes us want to control them and KNOW FOR SURE that we will not get hurt. What we need to do is trust in God to protect us, NOT try to control our husbands to protect us. <P>Please read that book, it will help you SO much. I will mail you my copy if you want, but I would suggest getting your own to keep on hand, you will love it...<P>Kim

Marsha - I'm sorry I haven't been here to support you. You've gotten good advice. Please re-read Orchid's reply.<P>I can only add one thing: cherish your kids.<P>Dave

JustPlainCali:<P>OUCH....I'm sorry you are going through so much right now. I'm going through H*LL myself. <P>Sometimes I wish I did have children now. This is probably a selfish thought. I raised my child from my first marriage by myself. It seemed easier to get through, at that time, more so then now...maybe because I was younger...or maybe because I had my child to focus on. Later I had two special needs foster children to take care of. After that, H and his children. Now I feel so all alone. <P>I don't know what I can offer you...I'm not doing to well myself. I know you are overwhelmed and tired of going through this H*LL. But, your boys need you and you need to take care of yourself for them. It's hard to do...when you feel your on the edge. <P>Something reminds me to tell you of the situation, when I had the foster children (for 3 years). The one child was really out of control, extremely destructive and even had self-destructive behavior (the worst), the other was a little nervous wreck couldn't be still to save her life. They both had vast problems and adverse behavior for us to deal with. This was all I did 24 hours a day...my life was dedicated to them. The one child actually acted like an animal when I got him, couldn't talk, growled and clawed (age 3). You would have thought he had been raised among animals. <P>I had a meeting at a Therapeutic Nursery he was to attend. I had to take him with me. He went off, acting out, it took me over a half hour, of dealing with him, just to get him to the door of the building. As I finally got him to the door, while trying to get him to put his coat on, I got him to laugh...relieving him and me from his angry outburst. The Head of the nursery had been following me around this entire time. As she stood there...she looked at me and said "you have an awful lot of patience...don't you ever get angry with him". I just looked her in the eye and told her "NO I don't get angry with him...he can't help it...I feel for him and what horrible pain he must have been through to make him act out this way...NO I don't get angry at him...I get ANGRY at the people that abused him and whatever they did to make him this way" at that point she looked at me and said "that's good way to look at it"...I told her "that is the ONLY way I can look at it". <P>I guess I'm telling you this...so maybe you can try and put yourself in your children's shoes...try to look at it from their point of view. I always tried to put myself on the child's level...looking at it from their eyes. They don't understand (not that we do) but, they have to feel very insecure and confused right now. IMO (for what that's worth?) if you focus your efforts on your children, you can accomplish at least two things. 1. Give them the love, support and attention they need right now...to help them get thru this 2. focus your attention on them, instead of H and this will help you through this also. H is an adult, although he's not acting like one right now. But, the children need your comfort, they already have one parent that abandoned them, they need the security of knowing...Mom is with us 200%...their stability. That no matter what happens...we have Mom. It's difficult, but you need to be strong for them...if they see you falling apart...they will feel more loss. And you probably know...children are very perceptive. <BR> <BR><B>I continued begging, pleading...talking until I was blue in the face...</B><P>When I read this...it reminded me of something I had read...<BR>This is part of the Article (I put the link below...please go read this)<P><B>Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away.</B><P><A HREF="http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0011702.html" TARGET=_blank>Dr. Dobson's Article</A><P>Just my 2 cents. Take Care!

Thanks sis(LibbyDoe),<BR>HbH...I am pretty much over the childhood stuff...forgave my mom a long time ago...it is me I have to forgive and understand that I had no control over then...just like I have no control over now...It is my need for control over my life that I have to let go of...<P>WAT--I just hope you had a good time! I know I did when I was in Vegas! Thanks for caring.<BR> <BR>H2Y--You really should explore writing too, maybe you could write a really good cop novel ...Yeah...I don't want to let go of him...but I need to let go of the idea that I can control all this...that I even need or want to...I'm struggling w/setting boundaries and giving him the space to figure all this out on his own...without my subtle manipulation.<P>Hurtwife: thanks for the Dobson reminder...I just need to keep those books around me and mark pages and reread stuff!<BR>You keep you chin up too...this stuff just sucks rocks!<P>Cali

Hi Cali, I am so glad that you have been able to deal with those issues with your mom. I guess I was sort of going off on a tangent (had just finished reading a bunch of chapters in that book) and felt the need to share my experience and how I never dealt with it...<P>I re-read my post to you and it was like I was TELLING you exactly what YOU have to do. Like I know?!! Hmm... I guess this is part of my controlling side coming out again, or maybe it's my domineering side, try to help others by MAKING them see your point... hmmm<P>Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I was happy for you and that I hoped you could read the book because it really does do wonders to explain where the controlling side of us comes from and what we can do to change...<P>HbH