While on vacation, I did have a session with Steve. He agreed to relax my Plan B communication rules to comply with the legal separation stipulating "direct contact" for "smooth family functioning." <P>We went over the letter from W's attorney. We agreed that I should follow the separation agreement to the letter and instruct my attorney to ignore the tone and factual errors in her attorney's letter.<P>He also recommended I write a Plan B reminder letter, giving the concession for more direct contact and even allowing her in my house to take away the accusation of the "deplorable" conditions.<P>This morning my wife called and I implemented the new communication rules because I knew she was calling for <son>. In essence, I ended up verbalizing the Plan B reminder Steve suggested I write. We discussed our just completed vacation trip and then she changed the subject to the financial summary I sent her right before we left. She did not quibble with things I refused to pay, recognizing that the separation agreement doesn't require them. But she thought it was appropriate for me to pay some things, such as joint Christmas gifts I had previously agreed to. I agreed to this, but just couldn't tell which expenses these were. I explained to her that I was inclined to take a hard line after receiving the nasty letter from her attorney. She backed off right away and explained that her attorney chose most of the language. I told her I understood that and I will direct my attorney NOT to respond in kind.<P>She then discussed our options as she sees them to proceed to divorce:<P>1. Run up a bunch of attorneys fees letting them haggle and sling mud.<BR>2. Get a mediator to assist in resolving the financial issues.<BR>3. We work out the financial stuff ourselves.<P>I offered number 4: We don't get a divorce.<P>She then went into a lengthy explanation of why we NEED to divorce. Here are her main points:<P>1. She doesn't love me and doesn't want to live with me.<BR>2. I haven't changed for the better the way I claim I have.<BR>3. I continue to try to control her.<BR>4. We could never be happy together.<BR>5. My much improved relationship with <son> only occurred because she left, if she came back, it would reverse because I would return to being unhappy with her.<BR>6. She accused me of being mean to her.<P>Because she was in the listening mode, I took the opportunity to fully explain my position. As Steve advised, I explained that the communication rules were to protect myself from further pain and she acknowledged this. I really emphasized the pain and discomfort from directly associating with her, but I can endure some of this for <son's> sake and if it promotes more openness from her. I went on to explain that my changes were real, that she had acknowledged them before she moved out, and I had never heard the "controlling" accusation until recently. So I gently inquired how I was controlling, trying to be sincere so as to show my willingness to continue to change. She didn't really have any good examples, other than my resistance to the separation and my refusal to agree to a divorce. She called this controlling. I countered that I was trying to preserve the family unit, and if this is "controlling", I admit it. She went into a long explanation of how it's better for the three of us to get a divorce. I respectfully disagreed. I countered that it may, in fact, be better to divorce, but neither of us knows this for sure because we haven't tried to resolve our problems. She stated that she's given it a year, and nothing's changed in me. I calmly explained that she hasn't seen the permanent changes because I haven't had a chance to demonstrate them continuously because we haven't spent enough time together.<P>She continued to listen, but continued to also state that we CAN preserve the family by being friends after the divorce. "<Son> needs this." <P>I continued the conversation because I felt I was making some progress in demonstrating my improved communication and I didn't think I was LB'ing - she was not getting mad and she even called back once because our cell phones disconnected. I gave a brief explanation of what I tried to do in Plan A - fixing the things I could fix in me to eliminate all the reasons I could for her decision to leave. I asked her what further changes I needed to make. She didn't have a very good reply and instead, went in to a discussion of how she "had to leave" because I wouldn't. Her whole rationale was classic WS stuff and her conclusion was that it just wouldn't work. I explained that through the help of my counselor, I have made permanent changes and that I am sure we have an excellent chance to recover if we only try. If we don't try, we'll never know. She said that it's possible that someday she could fall back in love with me - she can't say it won't definitely happen - but she also said she can't definitely say she won't get hit by an asteroid tomorrow, either. She just really wants a divorce. I explained that I understood this, and calmly stated I didn't want a divorce.<P>I also inquired how I was being mean to her. Again, the same story - I wouldn't move out and she had to. I asked about recent examples of my meanness. She explained again how it's mean for me to not agree to the divorce. <P>I validated her divorce reasons from her perspective, but explained that I had learned so much from my counselor, that I knew we had a chance and she doesn't believe this perhaps because she hasn't had the benefit I've had from the counseling experience. I explained what I saw as the steps necessary for us to have a chance. First, was willingness for her to see my changes and a willingness to try counseling. Second, OM had to be removed from the picture. <P>For the first time, she didn't flatly deny the affair, maybe because I called it a "relationship." She admitted going on a business trip with him last July (2000), and "legally," this represented an affair. But she changed the subject back to me and said she doesn't trust me. I said I understood and validated this feeling. I went a little further down the "affair" path and explained that I have already forgiven her, that we can put this behind us, that I won't throw it up in her face for the rest of her life, and that many couples recover from situations worse than ours. I stated that I believe OM is not the problem, that we had pre-existing problems. I explained that I've been working on myself for over a year and I've simply been waiting for her relationship with OM to die out. I validated her feelings of not feeling in love with me and having strong feelings in her relationship with OM. I further explained that our old marriage is over and we can have a clean slate to start over. She listened, but didn't agree. I asked if she had received the book I sent her (I ordered a copy of SAA and had it shipped to her address before we went on vacation). She said she hadn't received it. I asked her to look at it when it arrives. I had mentioned this to Steve as something for which I had nothing to lose and he agreed at this point, it makes sense.<P>In the end, we got disconnected. The conversation lasted about 45 minutes. She was in her car and even pulled into a parking lot to continue the conversation. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I felt she listened and this was the longest conversation we've had about us since last summer. On the other hand, maybe she's willing to do anything to placate me and get the divorce over with. <P>I expect we'll talk again soon about financial stuff after she files.<P>I know this was a big departure from Plan B, but not communicating after she files will result in turning it over to the attorneys. Steve suggested a meeting after she files. Since I will not agree to a divorce, we have no choice but to communicate directly and it gives me more face time with her in a listening mode.<P>WAT

Hey Dave,<P>I think the conversation was very positive no matter which was this goes. You are at least planting the seed. If she opens that book when she gets it, I have no doubt that she will recognize herself even if she can't admit to what she has done.<P>I have a friend that tried Plan B and also could not do it because of the children. She abandoned it alltogether. I am glad that you have a modified version.<P>You have amazing restraint and I expect your next conversation will be equally as productive. No matter what her motive is in having these conversations with you, she will end up knowing how much you care and have been trying.<P>take care,<BR>cleo<P>

Hmmm...FWIW I liked it Dave. It felt safer. If (and a big if cause I don't know you or wife) you two really do fit, and can have a mutually rewarding passionate marriage, then you are right, you (both of you) deserve a chance, nothing really to lose, and she (we ws's) know that. What either ticks us off, or scares us, is investing time and emotional energy back into something we have finished with, done with.... some of us (people, and if one happens to be a ws) are psychologically um...... conservative, and when our mind is made up, it is MADE up, usually after a long period of contemplation (or effort). It is very very hard to turn around...... my wife has successfully um......persuaded me to reconsider (not without a lot of contention (LB), but she has still demonstrated a significant change in her behaviour, one that is um....... interesting. <P>Still everyday is fraught with opportunities to regress (unlike you though, her ws is still at home). I have tried to analyze this (in myself) cause I don't want to feel like maybe this could work, I mean that would require a whole bunch of hard work for me, and taking a new risk I will be disappointed, not to mention that maybe I screwed up. I have found that I reject her fastest whenever she starts focusing on me, or dissing the ow, or wanting gaurantees, or going back to any of her pre-affair behaviours (criticism, disrespect, not listening to ME). I just want her to do whatever she thinks she should about HER and leave me to me. I don't want any guilt, or sadness, or despair, or anything that feels like emotional manipulation (whether true or not). I am not defending this, I do care about her, I am just saying that when a bs goes there, it causes violent emotional reactions in us, maybe someday I will understand that. But for now, my advice to bs is always avoid such things at all costs.<P>I said nothing positive to my wife for a long time re her efforts (well she LB a lot too), but finally I have been telling her the positive effects some of her stuff does. This usually goes ok, but sometimes it seems to get her then talking about us, or other dangerous stuff, and I feel myself pull away, and/or get angry. If your wife acknowledges anything positive, just say in one way or another thanks, you appreciate her noticing. Avoid at all costs thinking that means you can talk about the relationship, or her.<P>Re the charge of controlling because of resistance to divorce. That is ok, you responded well, and we ws know that is not controlling. That she said so was cause you were pushing her a bit for reasons...DON'T do that. We don't want to explain ourselves, nor do we want to TELL you how to be.......BUT if you don't ask, sooner or later we will tell you this kind of stuff......but we have to feel safe first. I have started recently doing this a little with w, it didn't go too good, she starts comparing herself to ow, and my A, and how could I do such a terrible thing...and goes downhill from there, but she is getting better, we talk out what went wrong, and she is learning. One of her biggest "deficiencies" from my viewpoint was the frustration I had being heard, she is an emotional controller, and used anger all the time to avoid dealing with anything she didn't want too. It is sooooooo strange now to see her thinking more, and responding with more discussion and less anger. Your wife will notice too, if you have truly changed. Listen to her dave, she is the mirror, no matter how you think you have changed, it didn't happen till you see it in her eyes, hear it in her voice. I think you got a tiny peak in the conversation, she didn't sound quite so sure you haven't changed, but don't argue with her, plz plz plz, do not argue with her about this stuff. I hate it when my wife does this, she might as well take out an ad in USA Today.......H your feelings DON'T count....ya know?<P>You did good in just asking for continued chances, noting nothing to really lose, she does need to participate, but do it in baby steps dave. I relented and started taking my w on service calls [I am the boss so can do stuff like that ]. I was apprehensive, and didn't want to feel like I was just doing it....but as it turns out I find I kinda like having her along. She is interested in the work I do, is helpful (and it is not faked, never fake anything dave), so something positive has occured. Had we found that we didn't enjoy this activity that would have been sad, but ok too...you see? The goal of the ws is not reconcilliation, it is finding the truth, whether we really are in-love with you or not......that may seem a subtle differnece from the goal of the bs (which is reconcilliation), but it makes all the difference in the world, and conflict over these goals causes much of the trouble I think. If you can agree with, and communicate so it is believed, that you understand this, your wife will feel safer....and not feel like property, or being trapped.<P>I spend alot of time with you cause I think I feel similarly to your w. Of course we aren't identical, no one is...not the bs, or the ws. But she seems to have made up her mind, she does not want the old marriage, and is scared of being trapped in it, so resists. But on the other hand, there are ties to you, and a new you changes things. She is not sure if it changes enuf (compared to what she feels with om, or by extension some op who would make her feel safe), but she doesn't want to make a mistake either. This is what you must deal with, and anything that makes her feel threatened gets a strong defensive response. I also feel like you are motivated, but you give off mixed signals (my feelings again, remember maybe I am all wrong), that you truly do want control of your relationship, and won't quite let yourself be completely vulnerable to her. This is hard to articulate dave, but the best recent example was the lawyer letter, had you responded with anything defensive (even if for all the right reasons) you would have pushed her away. <P>If you want a suggestion of how this works consider this. She told you she felt controlled by you "making" her move out (so to speak). Ok, maybe the right move at the time, but perhaps now you could say you are willing to revisit that issue, that if she wants to move back in, and have you move out, you might be willing.......the message being you are willing to relenquish control over the power you exert by having custody of son.......a powerful message, and I know what you are thinking now. But perhaps you can find other ways to demonstrate your willingness to consider her...and not just rely on coversational habits, or checklists of counsellor accomplishments. Don't ask her to tell you what to do, find ways to focus on her, put yourself in her shoes, do what she would want, even if it scares the bejeepers out of you. To the degree you are truly scared, you have successfully given up control, your wife will notice, and if there is anything to save, it will work to that end. My wife has terrible issues with emotional risk (FOO issues, not form me), and she wouldn't do this MB stuff or anything without a gaurantee from me that my vows would hold if she tried, made changes. I told her no, I won't give her that, (and I was honest, I can't give her that, no one can and I am tired of being manipulated into promises I can't keep, cause I am a conflict avoider...yada yada yada). She resisted for several months and we had many bad fights. But finally she stopped making that ultimatum, and just started doing the work. She still periodically says things like I don't know how you can call yourself a Christian, and we will have to deal with that someday I guess (my understanding of Christian marital doctrine has changed some since I looked hard at it, marriage is not an absolute, and one may not be spiritually married at all, vows [are manmade] don't make it so, but that is another issue). In so doing she made herself vulnerable, she doesn't know if it will work out for us or not, and she will be hurt a whole lot more if she does all this for nought, but in so doing she has gained some trust from me.<P>Anyways, some more food for thought, and be very careful how you present yourself when "fully explaining your position"....communication is good, but actions are far far more important to the ws.<P>

Dave,<P>I think you did terrific. Remember that Plan B is still about saving your marriage---and one aspect of that is to hammer home the points you reiterated in your conversation. That was basically a verbal "plan B" letter---you discussed Plan A, you listened to your wife, you let her know that you weren't punishing her, that you wanted a "new marriage".<P>And no lovebusting, too!<P>A+

I hate to mini-crash WAT's thread, but I just want to thank snl for his perspective:<P><B>I don't want to feel like maybe this could work, I mean that would require a whole bunch of hard work for me, and taking a new risk I will be disappointed, not to mention that maybe I screwed up. I have found that I reject her fastest whenever she starts focusing on me, or dissing the ow, or wanting gaurantees, or going back to any of her pre-affair behaviours (criticism, disrespect, not listening to ME). I just want her to do whatever she thinks she should about HER and leave me to me. I don't want any guilt, or sadness, or despair, or anything that feels like emotional manipulation (whether true or not). I am not defending this, I do care about her, I am just saying that when a bs goes there, it causes violent emotional reactions in us, maybe someday I will understand that. But for now, my advice to bs is always avoid such things at all costs.</B><P>Thank you for a possible glimpse into my WH's mind. I do tend to forget that he is different than me, and won't necessarily come out of this "ready to learn, study, work, and commit". Honestly, I have not read many of your posts, because they are so.. um... long. <<<ducking>>> but that is ignorance on my part. I have missed out on some very good oppurtunities to open my mind and learn something from a different perspective. I believe I will be going back and reading some of your stuff.<P>thanks, again. <BR>

Hey Dave,<P>Think you did good. Your W (for once, sorry for the catty remark) sounded like a reasonable adult.<P>glad you are back,<P>

Thanks for the support, folks.<BR>SNL - Her moving back in and me moving out doesn't seem like a viable option. She can't afford the house payment and wouldn't come back to within shouting distance of OM's wife, right down the street. Also, just to make sure you understand, we have 50/50 custody of our son, so I don't really have any power to flaunt there.<P>A few items from the conversation I didn't mention:<P>1. She "never really thought of OM's wife as my best friend."<P>2. She still demonizes OM's wife as a big problem and accused me of getting bad info from her.<P>3. Really has a big case of revisionist history - she's really trying hard to make me look bad with her criticisms, thus justifying her "conclusions" that she's right.<P>4. In numerous statements she tried to play the "I'm being fair" and "I have bent over backwards for you" ploy in describing her treatment of me for the past year.<P>5. She tried to get down to minute details about the circumstances that led to her decision to leave.<BR>Her: I had to leave because you wouldn't.<BR>Me: I understand your perspective, but I didn't ask you to leave.<BR>Her: Yes you did!! You said, "I'm not leaving, you have to."<BR>Me: I understand your frustration, but I didn't ask you or tell you to leave. What I said was, "I'm not leaving <son>. If you feel you must leave, I can't stop you, but I don't want you to, either."<BR>Her: No, you made me leave because you wouldn't.<BR>Me: OK, OK, I'll not quibble over who said what at this point. My feelings are that I want you back and it doesn't matter who left whom. We're both responsible for what got us to that point.<P>All this adds to my conclusion that she's being the typical WS. I know, I know, I'm probably over analyzing, but this is the most stuff I've had to work with for many, many months.<P>WAT

Good job, Dave.<P>It sounds as though you are laying some good foundation for some long range thinking by your wife. Who knows? Maybe she will never actually file.<P>The one thing I find ironic in your situation, and the mainpoint I have a major disagreement with in Plan B, is that going into it does not in reality protect the BS from the WS. You seem to be doing more thinking, and communicating for that matter, about your wife than ever before. You do seem to be more in control of yourself and at peace with what you are trying to accomplish.<P>These are just views from someone who is hoping to avoid Plan B in the long run. I know that even if I went into it, like you there would have to be some contact and therefore I would always be thinking about her. So take them with a grain of salt.<P>Keep up the good work. You are an inspiration for many here...

Hi Dave,<P>Welcome back. Catch any fish? We missed you. <P>Well, you certainly have been busy. You were able to have a progressive discussion with your W. This is good and you kept your stance with her at the same time allowing it to end in a civil manner. Good for you and your W. <P>Even though she may have a ways to go, this certainly does look like progress. You are doing good. <P>Hope you have had time to unpack and settle back in. This board has been busy this past week. We need you back..... <P>Aloha,<BR>L.<P>

WAT - hang in there - I think you're doing great. Keep the communication going.<P>SNL - While I applaud your effort to figure out your own mind, for some reason you are really irritating me. This whole controlling issue is annoying. Why can't you just try to make your wife happy and then she might want to make you happy. You're the one that f'd up. Live with it, suck it up, and apologize! <P>Sorry I lb'd right here on the board but, bad night....<BR>

Hi WAT. This is very interesting. I wanted to thank you for helping me realize that I am not crazy.<P>That conversation you spoke of with your wife, is EXACTLY what I am going through with my husband, althugh he takes it one step farther and makes me believe that he is right and that I am remembering things the wrong way (does a trip on your mind I tell ya'). Sometimes he is successful, sometimes not, but we tend to get in alot of arguments over this. <P>Thank you for giving me my sanity back... <P>I hope things go well for you, as usual, I think you handled things about as well as possbile. <P>HbH

Hi Dave...<P>I hate to disagree...<BR>...(but as usual... I will)<P>My attorney told me to wait with the Plan B letter too!<BR>I did... up until about 6 weeks before my divorce was final.<P>But once in Plan B...<BR>...minimal contact... (conforming to legal necessity) is the rule.<P>Trying to educate her...<BR>...bring her up on the MB concepts...<BR>...etc....<BR>...during Plan B... is counter to a "letting go" of the relationship.<P>These <B>nodified</B> Plan Bs... tend to drag out the process... making it an extra long rollercoaster ride.<P>If you don't want the divorce...<BR>...great ... don't file... wait until she does...<BR>...when she does... go the "moderation" route...<P>You have my prayers.<P> <P>Jim

welcome back wat!<BR>Nice post to read, thanks for sharing. <BR>cl

WAT:<P>Interesting dialog. Is there, I wonder, a Plan A minus or B plus? It seems you are on that kind of cusp.<P>So a good strategy is the modified Plan B ... and whenever you have direct contact, Plan A your a$$ off. Can't hurt. Could work.<P>In any case, good to see you back and that you enjoyed your vacation.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hi Jim, I respect your view.<P>In my situation the divorce can either go quickly, if I don't disagree, or it can wind up in court where we end up paying for the attorney's kid's educations. So I have a motivation to try to prevent her from filing. I know it's a desperation move counter to Plan B. <P>In my wife's mind, the legal separation dated last November was the moral divorce, the final one is just a legal formality, so I let go a long time ago. Granted I didn't do Plan B then, I should have done it last August when she moved out, but I didn't discover MB until late September.<P>Her thinking and behavior is so typical of WSs who finally see the light that Steve agreed that I had nothing to lose by sending SAA. <P>I plan on continuing Plan B, but we have to dialogue about our son and resolve financial issues. She sees Plan B as vindictive and I understand this because she still is grasping for reasons to continue her life apart from me. The vindictive parts to her are the minimal direct contact regarding our son and the prohibition of her entering our house. So I'll send a Plan B reminder, modifying the things she sees as vindictive.<P>I have another issue I'm preparing a post for later. I'd appreciate your views.<P>Dave