The purpose of this update is to post the Plan B reminder letter Steve recommended I write to my wife, and to close the loop with her on her accusation in our conversation on 8/10 that I was reading her e-mail.<P>I have had access to her e-mail since I helped her buy a computer last September and helped her pick out an ID and password. I've monitored it, there really hasn't been much there, but enough to confirm suspicions. I am not proud of this snooping, but it has helped me keep up a little. Based on some phrases I used in our conversation when she was denying a continuing relationship with OM, she accused me of reading her mail. I know she is hopping mad about it.<P>Also, I have suspicions that <son> is telling lies to keep me from knowing that my wife has him around OM. I know I can't control where she takes him or who she's with, but there's something terribly wrong if he feels a need to lie about it to me or she asks him to lie about it. I have no evidence that she asks him. Please understand, I do not grill him. I casually ask, for example, what he and Mom did over the weekend and did he see any friends. He never mentions OM, yet I'm pretty certain they've all been together. I'd appreciate any advice on this.<P>Here's the letter.<BR>***********************<BR>Dear <Wife>,<P>I just wanted to follow up on our phone conversation of last Friday. I thought it was successful and productive, but it is very painful for me. I appreciated your candor and I agree that we should avoid lawyers as much as possible. <P>And, yes, I admit to reading your e-mail. <P>It's not something I'm proud of, but it's something I was forced to do because I couldn't determine the truth in the normal way and I knew your password. I'm sure you remember I helped you pick it out. This was just an extension of checking your cell phone, beeper, and the mileage on your car. In every case, I was simply confirming suspicions. This is all very normal, survival behavior for someone like myself on the betrayal end of an affair. Other people hire private investigators and set up keystroke recording software on computers. Searching for truth is a fact of life for threatened spouses, because hiding the truth usually marks the beginning of an infidelity. <P>I haven't and don't plan to use anything I've read against you. To the contrary, I used it for myself with my counselor as input for a complete understanding of what I needed to do to protect myself emotionally.<P>There is a bright side of this for you. I've been able to keep up a little with your relationship with <OM>, yet I still love you and my counselor and I are convinced that we can recover our family. Perhaps you thought that if I knew the real truth, that my view on this would be different? Our situation is very, very typical of thousands of other couples who have successfully recovered and gone on to having wonderful marriages beyond their wildest expectations.<P>You have every reason to be mad about this, but affairs bring out the worst in everybody involved. It's ugly, ugly, ugly. Everybody involved does things they wouldn't normally do out of desperation and has regrets about it later. I'm still hopeful that there is a constructive way out of it: "end the sordid situation" and cut the loses. These were your words in July 2000.<P>For <son's> benefit and because it conforms fully with the separation document, I will talk directly to you about matters concerning <son> and you may enter our house to satisfy your concerns about its cleanliness. Other than that, please do not contact me except to resolve financial issues. It is simply too painful for me to associate with you under the current conditions. Of course, when you want to discuss the recovery of our family and are ready to solve our problems, I will welcome you with open arms.<P>I will ask <son> to tell me the truth when I ask him about his activities when he is in your custody. I encourage you to ask him about what he does with me. I'm sure you agree that it is wrong and unhealthy for him to be dishonest about this. I have a right to know what he's being exposed to while he's with you, just as you have a right to know what he does while he is with me. In all matters concerning <son>, I believe honesty and the highest moral standards are imperative.<P>Everything else I said in my letter last month and in our phone conversation on Friday is sincere. I fully understand our problems were a pre-existing infection in our marriage, but your relationship with <OM> represents a fever due to the infection. We must treat the fever first, to be able to get rid of the causes.<P>Love,<BR>WAT<BR>****************<BR>One other question. What do you think of offering the MB web site and my user name in case she wants to see what I've been doing?<P>Dave (WAT)

Dave:<P>Two topics you mentioned: honesty with your son and giving her your MB user name.<P>I will address the second first, as it is the shorter response: go for it ... maybe your talks on Moose Brain Worms and alien abductions will jar her out of her Mothership seat. It's all about honesty, isn't it? You can set the tone here by beginning radical honesty: telling her about MB, and give her your user name will let her see what you have been doing.<P>As to your son and honesty: I am currently dealing with some very, very serious emotional problems with my two kids. Their mother had pretty much told them to "keep it secret." Unfortunately, it has manifested itself in very inappropriate behavior in them. The scars will last a lifetime, and require a ton o' counseling.<P>Emphasize honesty not only with your wife, but with your son as well. I have begun Plan A-ing the kids, to get them over their guilt, etc., by providing an atmosphere where they can be open and honest in a caring and protected environment.<P>I urge you not to let this issue fester, its long-term ramifications can be quite serious.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<P>

I am in total agreement with STL. Honesty is important and the only way to go. May I ask your son's age?<P>~TD~

WAT,<P>To further expand of what STL says here. We have not only implemented the MB concepts in our marriage, but also for our entire family. Take a look at the concepts. With a few modifications they are actually very good ones for an entire family to follow. Total honesty, Care, protection and time. We have explained these to our children and are teaching them to live by them too. <P>You are rigth, if your son feels he has to lie there is a big problem. If you can let him know that he is safe telling you any and everything. Kids protect their parents in many ways. I am sure that he feels that he is protecting you. He's seen you in so much pain. Let him know that you can handle anything he tells you. That your family's need for total honesty is more important then "protecting" people with lies. <P>This is very important because lies become a habit. If he learns to lie about this one thing to protect you, then what will he lie about next to protect you or himself. <P>He is torn between you and his mother. He needs permission to love both of you openly and honestly.<P>I hope this helps.<P>Z

Dave,<P>I just read this and have input. I'm at work right now tho, dang it!<P>I'll try and get back to you this evening, it's 1:44p PST here.<P>I'll say this, the content is good, however the overall feeling of the letter feels just a tad intimidating, I'll have to read again and post what areas lend to that tone.<P>Lv,<BR>Jo

Dave,<P>Me and my input here again!!! Here goes:<P>1. About your son's possible lying. I am dealing with that also but on a lesser scale. My H has not asked my son to lie but son is learning it anyway. Now H is upset and wants to undue the damage before it gets worse. <P>On that note here goes, I would present to W the need to for a unified stance in raising your son. One that would prohibit S from learning such bad habits as lying. Without pushing her face into it you can mention that if he picks up these habits, what would stop him from hurting his parents and others that care for him? Neither parent would want to be resposible for that right?<P>2. About letting her come here? Well like yourself, I have been very vocal on these sites. My comments about H and OW are strong and may be more than they can handle. However, they (H & OW) know that they have done more than what has been posted. If they can get past the fact that their antics have been posted on this board (anonomusly(sp), then maybe but I think not. If it is a trust issue, then yes, but caution them that what they are about to read is real and may sting. Irregardless, it is the truth as it was written with the feelings and emotions allowed at the time. <P>Just my 2 cents. <P>L. <BR>

dave,<P>I don't have an opinion believe it or not.<P>If you get your wife your user name here let me know so I can edit my comments about her. I don't think some of them are very nice. :0

Thanks everyone. I feel like I need to pull out all the stops. OM's divorce is almost complete. On the other hand, my wife exhibits all the classical WS traits and an argument can be made that I should withdraw and let nature takes its course.<P>I have always written my posts with the thought in mind that one day my wife will read them. There is nothing but unabashed honesty in them. My view is that if she's open minded enough to look, she's probably open minded enough to take whatever is here.<P>At a minimum, I will have a talk with my son and explain the value of honesty - that it hurts me more for him to be dishonest than knowing the truth. In the near term, maybe I should not present the opportunity for him to lie by not asking questions. The down side of this is that he may get the false impression that I am not interested in everything he does. Dern, it's not fair, is it?<P>WAT

Dave,<P>I like the letter. It sounds good.<BR>I agree with Zorweb that you can apply the MB principles to the rest of the family. Let him know how important honesty is and show him that his honest responses, no matter what you think about them, will not be used to threaten his relationship with his mother.<P>Regarding your wife coming here to read, I didn't tell my H until we were well into recovery and had hashed out most of the issues. I then showed him the website and my username. Suprisingly, he didn't read everything I posted. He did say some nice things about some of my posts though. My only concern is that you may really need to unload here one day and you won't feel safe doing it because of the possibility that she will be out there reading your posts.<BR>

Okay Dave, here goes:<P>You wrote:<BR>"You have every reason to be mad about this, but affairs bring out the worst in everybody involved. It's ugly, ugly, ugly. Everybody involved does things they wouldn't normally do out of desperation and has regrets about it later. I'm still hopeful that there is a constructive way out of it: "end the sordid situation" and cut the loses. These were your words in July 2000."<P>Dave, I may be wrong but I think this paragraph should be removed or re-worked. I understand you are trying to apologize and show her the reason you broke into her email but, you are also somewhat pointing the finger at her, saying she and her affair are the reason you had to resort to such a thing. I feel like it's an LB ... an attempt at trying to educate her or maybe even blame. It's just how I felt when I read it.<P>You wrote:<BR>"I will ask <son> to tell me the truth when I ask him about his activities when he is in your custody. I encourage you to ask him about what he does with me. I'm sure you agree that it is wrong and unhealthy for him to be dishonest about this. **I have a right to know what he's being exposed to while he's with you, just as you have a right to know what he does while he is with me. In all matters concerning <son>, I believe honesty and the highest moral standards are imperative."<P>I'm having that LB feeling again when I read this, Dave. It's a sideways veiled **disrespectful judgement and somewhat demanding. She's not going to know "why" you're bringing up dishonesty concerning your son. I'm afraid she'll think you are trying to insinuate she is causing him to lie by virtue of being in an A. It doesn't feel good or Plan A-like to me at all.<P>You wrote:<BR>"Our situation is very, very typical of thousands of other couples who have successfully recovered and gone on to having wonderful marriages beyond their wildest expectations."<P>I would not tell her your situation is typical. You are basically saying her A is typical and WS's HATE hearing that. I would remove that part of this paragraph, but keep the rest. Try this "Thousands of other couples who have experienced what we have, have successfully ..." or something like that.<P>Dave, I'm only trying to help and when I read it I got a bad feeling. Like you were angry with her. These are simply my suggestions ... it's so hard to see outside of your own situation and I truly hope I haven't offended you by red liining this thing to death.<P>Please let me know what you think.<P>Best,<BR>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 12, 2001).]

Hey Dave ... I re-read your letter again. I just have to say this ... isn't a Plan B letter suppose to be a love letter, a letter that tells your spouse how much you love them, admiting you played a part in the demise of your happy marriage and telling them how you'll wait for them and fight for the marriage?<P>As a BS who has had her share of dishing out LBs, I feel even more of your letter then what I previosly posted is not Plan A-like. How about you don't send it for a couple days and then re-read it. To me, it just doesn't feel like a love letter.<P>Anyone else agree?<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 12, 2001).]

I'm not really going to critique your letter, BUT to say this...remember that OUR educating THEM, does not work. So...just reread each sentence and truly (TRULY, TRULY) ask yourself if you are somehow trying to educate her, or get her to see the light, or point out something that YOU know and SHE doesn't.... Be honest with your own motives first.<P>ALSO, (I could be wrong), but I still THINK that you should just simply stop trying to defend your actions (as in the e-mail snooping). Don't even bother going into why you did what you did, because AGAIN, it could very well appear that you are trying to educate her. Less info is more. <P>Ya know, what's wrong with just one line...as in .."yes, I snooped.... infidelity (or whatever) brings the worst out in everyone!!! Just admit your wrong... because if you try to get her to see she is wrong, she'll most likely retreat...<P>I think I am speaking from experience!!!! (as in been there, done that, and he went right back into the cave)<P>Now, the last piece is a very complicated and touchy subject, but one that is so very near and dear to me... the children affected (or effected?)<P>To truly show her you have changed.... by not being so controlling (her words, right???)... (EVEN IF IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRUE>>>THIS IS WHAT SHE BELIEVES WHOLE HEARTEDLY) you have to just let it go. I'll probably go against the whole lot here, but I just finally got to the point of believing that my H's relationship with his kids is his responsibility.<P>I have mine, and when I am with the kids I am consistent and honest and forgiving and true and loving. (as best as I can be). I've talked to my kids about telling the truth. I speak about all of the important virtues that I would like them to hold onto... BUT, I never use names. <BR>ANd I usually do it at a time that is removed from being with their dad. <P>You know, it doesn't matter to the kids what is going on with us (of course I'm speaking in generalities...I do know it matters that we are not together in a loving family), but what I mean is that kids by their very nature are self-centered... They just need to know that they matter to the both of us. If our wandering spouse cannot demonstrate what WE want them to...then it is simply up to us during our time with them.<P>I rarely ask my kids anything re: my H. (though I am tempted to every day) I know on the other hand that he always does. If I have ever even come close to asking them or him anything...it usually backfires and somehow I find myself in the type of battle that you got into with the lawyer and your wife.<P>I really don't think our spouses' can even think straight half the time... and that is evidenced very clearly in my H's behavior. I think if they are EVEN trying to think about what they want to do, what is the right thing to do, us vs.. anyone else...they will not be able to do it with us breathing down their necks.<P>ANyway, step lightly, err on the side of charity towards her!!! Charity towards her is beneficial for all of our souls... <P>Try not to panic about the om's D. This isn't about OUR timing!!!<P>I mean this all in the most postive way Dave. And I am trying very hard to take my own advice..

Thanks ladies, you're very convincing. I think I'll sleep on this a few days, but in the meantime just send her a short e-mail admitting that I was reading her mail and modifying the communication thing to fully conform to the separation document.<P>Dave