Why do I often feel like property? I have struggled with this alot. I do cognitively understand most of the issues bs and ws have with an affair. And I do understand the need for certain actions, such as ceasing contact with op while sorting out your life with spouse. Yet it doesn't take too much before I start FEELing like an object, something to be won, coerced, repaired, fixed...this bothers me alot, and makes me um........ less enthusiastic about reconcilliation stuff. <P>I do think just like there is ws "fog" there is bs "fog", and it takes the form of slipping into the mindset that ws are not really people, just some kind of alien possesion, and just need to be fixed, or rescused from whatever. We really are people ya know, there are reasons for what we do, and it is those reasons that are important (for bsand ws to understand). And the degree to wihich they are trivialized, or ignored, (even if we come back), and not dealt with, is lessened the likelihood of successful recovery. <P>I know humans label stuff for organizational and identity reasons, but I am not so sure the bs/ws stuff does not set up a certain unhelpful conflict, an "I am better than you" mindset, that is counter-productive. Frankly I am getting a little tired of being so understanding (and I am) to my w for regularly telling me I have no morals, I don't know who you are, I can't believe anything you say, and so forth. I am the same person I have always been, and my actions are the predictable (if psychology were exact enuf) outcome of the sum total of my life experiences. <P>The implication is my w (and the other bs) are "better" than the ws in some fundamental way.......is that what you bs think? For those who do, I would suggest that is one of the things your "ws" reacts to......if we aren't "worthy" then maybe you would be better off without us, or they get angry and reflect back that you are the problem (drove me to it etc.) I have read saa and now after the affair, it is interesting that the author chooses non-judgemental labels, and specifically says he does so to avoid this kind of conflict. I don't so much mind the labels bs/ws they are just descriptive labels, but I do mind alot the implications and mindset that often lurks just under the surface in the minds of the bs.<P>Although affairs do seem to be fraught with poor judgement in assessment of the merits of the op, and of course are irresponsible in many ways, the assumption that this means the ws is somehow defective, and the op a monster is just not right. There is a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) social peer pressure to keep people in marriages. That somehow the marriage you are in is the one you are supposed to be in, and by gosh we are gonna make sure you stay in it forever (and the heck withn your feelings), makes me feel like a prize stallion,.......or maybe prize "pig". I realize this could be just my own irrationality, but I do feel this way. Or it could just be my own psychology. I have never in any of my relationships wanted anyone choosing me unless it was enthusiastic. If someone expressed an interest in someone else (or a lack of interest in me) my response is a calm goodbye. I would never "fight" for anyone in that sense, I have never believed you can make someone love you, or care about you, or any such thing. I would do the same with my wife, I can see no point in trying to convince someone to love you (as in passion, not caring). In fact, if she "found" someone I also felt could make her happier, fulfull her better, than I could, I would set her free, isn't that what love is about, wanting the best for someone? (of course, if I assessed the op was bad news, would try to show her that, but only to a point, she must decide). How many of you include in your thinking whether you really are the best spouse for your h/w? That your marriage is really in their best interst, as opposed to being in your best interest? How many of you rationalize that your ws is really better off with you, when maybe they are not? And if you don't consider these issues, aren't you really in some way just wanting to posses your ws for your own needs? And isn't that akin to considering them your emotional property? And is it so hard to understand that we can sense that? And that it bothers us? Regularly there is mention of "winning" in posts, the op winning, stealing your spouse. IMO this is a dangerous mindset, and not at all helpful to reconcilliation. I really do think MB has it right, plan a/b focus on you and let your ws be free to choose as they will....... I can't help but wonder at the anger and vengeance I see displayed (on occassion) at a ws (and op) if they seem to be happy or working out, and all the "wishes" that they fail and are miserable. This is how you feel toward someone you love? If your marriage fails and you love your ws, wouldn't you still wish them happiness, and conduct yourself as supportively as possible? And if you can't do that, isn't that a reflection of how little you love "them"? And how much more likely you viewed them as your emotional property, and are angry to lose it? I am coming to believe few marriages are really based on love at all, but on quid pro quo, a contract, and woe to anyone who violates it.

s&c:<P>You know I've asked myself your questions a lot lately... Would my W be better off with the OM, and if so, am I just a "sore loser"?<P>The first thing that comes to mind is that regardless of the OP and whatever reasons, I personally don't think my W is better off breaking the committment of marriage, and then jumping into another relationship. (Before you react, I know that if she wants to do this, she can... I'm not trying to control her, these are just my opinions.)<P>I cannot see the justification or benefit of breaking marital vows unless the marrige is abusive. This sort of situation is the only time that I could see it being in the "better interests" of the spouse to leave the marriage.<P>On the other hand, I believe that if my W were to end her A, take some time to consider who she is and who she really wants to be, and then was to recommit to our marriage, I believe she would gain deeply as a person, that she would gain strength and substance from her decision.<P>Any time I've ever made a promise and then broken it, whether it be work-related or family-related, etc., I have never felt the same satisfaction and character that I've felt when I've *kept* a promise. I think that keeping the promise to our marriage would ultimately make my W feel better.<P>Here's my situation: I'm 30, my friends who are girls say I'm "nice looking", I am in shape, have a pretty good job, and am a good step-father to my step-daughter. The OM is about 10-15 years older than me, is "handsome", very wealthy, and has just separated from his W. He is rather notorious for having slept around on her.<P>So why is my W having an A? Well, among other things, she blames finances, the fact that we had a relationship that helped contribute to the end of her first M, and that she "thinks she's in love" with this OM.<P>Most people say that it's actually in MY best interests to get the hell out of this myself, that I deserve better, etc.<P>It is my opinion that my W is making a huge mistake. It is a fact that she is hurting me by breaking this committment. There is nothing I can do about it if that is her decision, but I do not believe that I am treating her as my property that has been stolen away.<P>I still love her today, and I believe in the committment. It's just a matter of choice and belief in marriage.<P>What do you think?<BR>zen<P><p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited August 13, 2001).]

I really relate to a lot of what you are saying SNL.<P>Particularily regarding the BS continually coming from the position of "I am the better person than you." <P>In fact, my H and I had a rather heated discussion about that topic yesterday. He cannot understand how I can continue the course of action I have chosen (the affair).<BR>He will continually tell me that I have no morals, no integrity, no values, no conscience. He cannot understand this, because most people would consider me to be a person whose beliefs and character would not allow for this sitation to occur.<P>I blame my H for the changes in me. I blame him (myself as well) for the situation we are in. <P>So while he is berating me for being the lousy person I have become, I am blaming him for it to begin with. If he had been the person I needed this would never have happened. <P>Basically he wants to turn back the clock and have me be the person I was before the A. I will not go back there.<P>I also feel like a prize to be won. And at the same time, why does he want to win me? I am not the wife he had before, and I never will be again. He continually says he doesnt like or understand who I have become. So why does he want me? hmmmm.....cuz he wants to change me back into the person I was before. That was a very unhappy person -- and he can't seem to understand why I dont want that.<P>Zen and others -- I see a lot of posts about honoring committment and marriage vows. One thing I would like you to consider is the change in values that is necessary for someone to participate in an affair. My H often talks about "sin" and "vows." It does absolutely nothing to sway my thoughts. In order to have an affair, I personally lost my relationship with Christ. I no longer pray, I no longer attend church. So if my faith is no longer a guiding force in my life -- do you think that the idea of "vows" will make me stay in my marriage?<P>

Lexxy - <P>I really do always enjoy reading your posts. I think I've said before that conversing with you gives me some insight into my W's behavior.<P>OK, having said that, I have not brought up morals at all with my W. I honestly don't judge her as being less than me. I do not think I'm better than her. (I just think I'm better than the OM! )<P>I admit that sometimes I am incredulous that she's able to do certain things without any sign of guilt or remorse, but then I remember that she believes in what she's doing. She's certainly entitled to those beliefs, and to pursue happiness in any way that she sees fit.<P>Is there a thread where your background story is outlined? I'm curious to know what your husband did (or did not do) to not meet your needs. <P>I can tell you that I do NOT want my W to go back to being who she was before the A. I don't want her to be that unhappy person. I would like to sort of start over with the clearer knowledge of who we both are and what we both want.<P>About the vows: you're right. Clinging to the meaning of the vows only works if you subscribe to idea of committment in the first place, and obviously my W doesn't right now. Maybe I feel there's room for her to grow in this area? Keeping your word is never really a bad thing, is it? Doesn't it ultimately give you something positive?<P>Thanks again,<BR>zen

I think I can understand why the WS feel like property. I have often wondered if my W feels that way. I know from a BS standpoint, that we feel like something has been taken from us and that feeling probably comes across to the WS as them being property to be owned. I would like to offer another slant. As the BS, I do not feel like I 'own' my W. I do, however, feel like a very large investment of my life has been taken from me. I have invested love, commitment, money, and hard work in my marriage, only to have it taken from me. There is a very real feeling of loss - not of property, but of investment. I feel that OM has not committed to the investment that I have and is actually reaping the benefits of my investment (might sound kind of wierd - I'm sure). <P>For me, I do not feel like I own my W, but I do feel like I own the investment that I have put into our marriage and I can't stand that being taken from me.<P>S&C

Wow, what an interesting thought of being property. I have never considered myself that. <P>Lexxy, I can understand where you are coming from. Before my A, I was extremely unhappy and had so many unmet needs that I didn't enjoy anything about life. And I am sorry that it took an A for me to be able to break out of that cycle and find out who I really am. My H and I talk about the changes in both of us and neither of us want to go back to who or what we were before. I have become a much bolder person. Before I just seem to blend into the background, but I no longer want to stay in the background. I want to experience life, but I want to do it with my H. So now I am vocal on issue that I use to just let ride knowing there would be a fuss if I made my opinion known. Those in our family that don't know what happen just think I'm going thru some kind of mid-life thing, but my H understands and for the first time actually puts my feelings and needs ahead of those of his parents or brothers. It feels so good.<BR>If I had to go back to what I was before, I would choose to move away from my marriage. I am so thankful that my H has chose to allow me to grow and change. But the more I read on this site, to more I realize that he is the acception to the rule here.<P>Debbie <P>------------------<BR>

Hi SNL,<P>I can understand where you are coming from. Again and again, you frequently voice complaints and feelings that my H voiced many times during our marriage and his subsequent affair. <P>Two of my biggest Love Busting Behaviors are: <B>Disrespectful Judgements</B> and <B>Selfish Demands</B>.<P>My H was also less than enthusiastic about reconcilitian until I had learned to treat him respectfully, as an adult equal, rather than a small child that needed reprimanding.<P>What did I have to do? I had to <B>accept</B> that my H's morals were not mine. And I had to learn that I had no right to demand that he change those morals to suit me, any more than he had the right to demand that I change my moral values to suit him.<P>I had to <B>accept</B> the fact that <B>he was who he was</B> - a person who felt that his affair was justified and had even rationalized it from our religious perspective. He wasn't <B>who I wanted him to be</B>. Reality check time for moi! <P>My <B>disrespectful judgements</B>, voiced loudly during many <B>angry outbursts</B>, also included many <B>selfish demands</B> that he agree and accept my moral values as "the right" ones.<P>I was so morally superior!! You know, I didn't just do this to him during the affair - this was my attitude during our entire marriage. I felt that I was the better person, and it was my moral imperative to fix him.<P>How arrogant and disrespectful of me!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The implication is my w (and the other bs) are "better" than the ws in some fundamental way.......is that what you bs think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. But I used to. And frankly, when I was reeling with hurt and rejection - sometimes it was lifesaver that I wrongly clung to. The man that I loved, admired and needed more than anything had rejected me, felt that I was "nothing" and that he didn't desire me. It was a comforting fact that I was at least morally superior even if I wasn't desirable.<P>It's not a healthy or good way to treat the WS. I can understand why you are feeling like "property". <P>I know that it wasn't until I stopped that attitude did my H feel like coming home. He came home to be my partner and my team mate, by his own choice, not because I shamed him, coerced him, or "won the prize".<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited August 13, 2001).]

It is amazing the patterns that seem to be repeated in each human life over and over and over.<P>This is the conclusion I have come to...my H even asked me if him staying was like me winning some kind of contest...I told him, honestly, at first it was...<P>So now what is it? I don't know, because if I win by keeping him through begging and pleading I will be no better off than before...he will not be here because he wants to be.<P>Yes, at first he was MY husband...the MY implies ownership...How dare some other woman entice him to her...I was not able to let him share the blame...after all she had done this before, was on husband #4...it clearly had to be HER fault for horning in on MY territory...<P>Now...I think of our children...the life I had dreamed of and thought that we were close to attaining and know that it was just that...a dream...my dream...not his, not even ours...<P>And, though I love him, the touch of him, the feel of him, the smell of him...I have to let go...I feel it in my bones that if he doesn't leave and come back in his own time (if he does) we will just repeat this over and over...<P>He is not my property. I can't live his life for him. And I am scared, but my head knows this is right...<P>SnL you have made so much growth here...give your W the chance to grow as well...just as she can't speed you up or slow you down...You can't do it for her either...<P>Just take it slowly...one day at a time...learn...grown...together...<P>Life is a journey...sometimes we walk side-by-side...sometimes we don't.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Hi Snl,<P>Well it looks like you have several WS replies so here is a BS perspective. Property? Let's see. Our vows were said and set to show a new relationship. Build a new life together as one. One body? No, we are separate persons but oneness of spirit, common goal? Yes, this is a relationship here. Are things purchased and sold together? Yes. Days of his vs mine may exist for some items but not necessarily a good thing in a marriage. Again due to the oneness of spirit principle. <P>Now does each partner 'own' the other as a commodity? Well, what does that mean? Tell each other what to do? Sometimes, how this is done is just as important and what. Share our feelings of worth or lack there of? Yes, sometimes again, delivery is important. How to share negative feelings and in turn make it have a positive result? Possible, again the delivery is important. <P>Are you now a commodity? No, more like a vocal partner. Remember this is a relationship. When does one begin to feel like a commodity? Hm.......<P>IMHO, when one of the partners is breaking their relationship by sharing it with a 'non-partner'. Therefore, you have given away a piece of yourself to someone other than your mate. Stolen? Yes, taken what you have already given to your mate and shared it with another. Do you have that right? Yes, after you are divorced, not before. That is why your relationship with the OW is an Affair and not a marriage. So why are you trying to have a marriage relationship with someone who is not your mate? <P>If you want to play house or footsey with another woman, go ahead but divorce your wife first. Come on now, be fair. Look who is really treating their mate as a commodity. Your W (like myself) is just being vocal about not wanting to be treated like a 2nd fiddle. Do you like being treated like that? I think not. Guess what? Me too. <P>You don't like when your W says those things that make you look bad or feel bad? Well, is it true? If not then you need to let her know. If it is, then what will you do to rectify it? Apologize, prove to her that you are really over it, meet her needs, give her reassurance when she brings it up? If it is not true and she is totally out of line, then how will you gently help her understand it? <P>Would this have come up without the A? If yes, then deal with it from without the A standpoint. If it is A related, then deal with it from the A standpoint. Remember it must be from how you both see. it. <P>This is just my opinion. I am dealing with these issues with my H. SNL, you know how I feel and honestly you may be able to deal with a total stranger and have more empathy for me or others than your W. If so, then can you see her in that light? <P>Off subject, I want to let you know that I am happy to see that you are able to work well together. I am glad when I read your posts about how you are able to talk to each other and have a working relationship. I too would like to be able to have that kind of relationship with my H one day. <P>I am not saying you are a bad person. Just one who has had some bad judgements and made mistakes that have hurt yourself and others (family, ow, ow's family and others included). You do have redeeming qualities. I believe your W see those and desires you to work on displaying those qualities in your married life. In turn she can shine like a star for you also. <P>Please understand, I say these things not to anger you but to help you see it from the BS standpoint. Neither is free from guilt, however neither should we throw off our personal guilt for others to carry. <P>Take Care, <BR>L. <BR>

just a couple of thoughts... my 2 cents - or perhaps jsut 1 cent <P>Marriage is like entering a contract with someone. Contracts are designed to protect both parties from wrongdoing of the other party, as well as provide security that neither one will "change their mind" and want out of the relationship. This is necessary between human beings, because none of us are perfect, storms come our way, and we change our minds a lot. <P>When a business agrees to provide a service (for example) to another business, a contract is agreed upon. Lawn care. If the guy in charge of taking care of the lawns for Acme Company, and wakes up sleepy one morning, and decides they don't want to go to work, Acme Company is not getting it's needs met. Acme can break the contract, right? The lawn care company broke tha agreement. The lawn care company - if they want Acme's business, will go to Acme, and say, I screwed up. I didn't meet your needs as we agreed. I will fire that guy, and make these changes....1,2,3... Please give us another chance to meet your needs. Acme may decide to give them another chance. Or may not. If so, everything may work out peachy. If not, they will try another company and may get disappointed again. What if Acme never brought the bad experiences to light? They receieve bad service over and over and over, and finally one day say - I want out of this contract. Lawn care company says, I'll make changes 1,2,3 - give us another chance. Acme says NOPE. I tried to work with you for 2 years - NOPE. I want out. Acme didn't do everything they could have to improve the relationship!!!! They just endured until they couldn't anymore. Not fair to lawn care company.<P>Just some thoughts. <P>You are right. BS should never think we are superior. Sometimes we feel that way. We NEVER went outside the marriage to have our needs met. We were hurt SO deeply, we want the WS to understand that. But we did things wrong to to the WS. We're not perfect. And we certainly should not feel like we're perfect or the best spouse available. But vows are supposed to be forever. Til death us do part. That's the contact agreement. Not 2 years. Not til someone screws up. Not I'll TRY, but I DO/I WILL.<P>Thank you so much for your perspective and excellent questions snl. You are not wrong for your opinions. I hope I don't come across that way. I'm just expressing my opinions too. it is helpful to hear yours. My H probably feels like you do. Somehow, we all have to figure out how to get along in this world =- and in marriages - with different opinions. <P>

Orchid --<BR>I see lots of your posts and think you make some valid points.<P>IMHO I think you are describing a "perfect" world, and certainly not the world any of us are living in today.<P>We have all lost that "spirit of oneness." So if that no longer exists in my relationship, why would I approach decisions or actions based on that ideal?<P>I think a lot of the BS need to examine the argument they cling to about vows and commitment.<P>Think about this -- the only part of the VOW most of you want to talk about is the "til death do you part."<P>Maybe to me the more important portion of that VOW was to love, honor, and cherish. I personally think it was my BS who broke the vows first.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lexxxy:<BR><B>Maybe to me the more important portion of that VOW was to love, honor, and cherish. I personally think it was my BS who broke the vows first.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lexxy,<BR>I totally agree! HOWEVER, as Faith1 has stated...the vows were NOT for "until I don't feel like it anymore." they are forever, till death....etc. That the BS MAY have "broken" some vows first, doesn't exonerate either partner. It's time to quit keeping score, and just FIX IT. It CAN be fixed! That's the beauty! If everyone would just "grow up" and take their own responsibility for what is wrong, and fix it, it CAN be fixed. I know stories have been told about the WS saying, "Well, I tried to fix it, but it cannot be fixed, so I'm outta here." without so much as a HINT to the BS that they thought it was broken....this was my situation. At least let's TRY TOGETHER before we both have to live with the decision that it's over.<P>But keeping score, or blaming WHO commited the biggest *SIN* or who broke more vows isn't even the issue. The issue is that these were vows taken solemnly BEFORE GOD, and that makes it more sacred than a contract with a lawn service, for instance. To that end, I have confessed to GOD my sins, my broken vows of NOT loving, NOT cherishing, NOT honoring...and now it's time for my WH to step up as well.<P>I don't think you want to be far from your faith. I think it's the only way to "numb" the pain (or remorse?) you may feel for what you know to be wrong. I could be WAAAY off base, here. If so, I'm so sorry! I just think that if you are justifying what you are doing (A) in order to "punish" your BH, or justifying your A by saying "You broke our M vows first, so it's OK what I'm doing" then to WHOM did you make the vows? I took my vows BEFORE GOD, NOT to my H. Yes, I DID break certain vows...I'm not happy that it ended us up here. I admit that. I wish my WH would admit to the ONE BIG ONE I HOPE I won't "blame" my WH and make him feel LESS than I am, when we can finally talk about this, BUT...if there is a certain feeling of that inside himself, that won't be me doing it, but it might be GOD. <P>SNL, you know how I feel. I STILL feel you are being "beat up" by an unforgiving BW. I wish Thinker would CHANGE THE TAPE. CHANGE THE TAPE. CHANGE THE TAPE. CHANGE THE TAPE.<BR>I still think you two need to talk to Steve or Jen. Lots of hurt and baggage being slung around your house.<P>Lupo<BR><p>[This message has been edited by lupolady (edited August 13, 2001).]

Interesting...<P>I think the dynamic is really a lot simpler and less about values/morality/vows/love/committment than it appears. <P>After an affair, the betrayed spouse is going to feel rejected - and the wayward spouse is going to feel guilty. Period. There are a million ways this can play out, but the basic feelings are the same and no amount of explaining or justifying or demanding understanding can really sway them. They just have to be worked through.<P>In order to feel less rejected, the BS may try to find fault with the WS - and facilitate "fixing" - or if not active "fixing" then attributing the affair to the "fog". I think the Harleys needed to come up with the fog concept, partly to address the poor judgement that may come with affairs, but equally to help devastated betrayed spouses to find some way (for the short term) to keep getting out of bed every morning. It draws their attention away from the devastating rejection (again, for the short term). Then, while we have the rejection issue tabled somewhat, plan A can step in and if done right - does not exacerbate the already strong feelings of guilt present in the WS, nor does it allow the BS to "let loose" (LB) all over the WS and let them heal their guilt that way. (The "she's such a b***** anyway" line of reasoning - "my actions are justified".)<P>The WS would like to be able to get their needs met without feeling guilty - and to not feel like someone that is somehow "flawed" or "broken". So the WS will seek to to blame the BS for being "not understanding", or trying to change him/her, or being treated like a non-person. The BS sometimes doesn't help here. They may say they want to understand the WS, but whenever the WS begins to explain "reasons" for the affair or for the existing breakdown that preceded it, that old BS rejection kicks in and alot of communication is shut out or "translated" to "fogspeak" - not really heard by the BS because self-preservation/avoidance of rejection is in play.<P>Similarly, the WS can never really understand BS rejection. Even if the BS is using all the right "I feel" phrases.. much of this gets translated through the WS guilt filter, and is shut out - self preservation/protection of feelings in action again.<P>So you can get stuck - BS feels too rejected to really listen to WS and WS then feels even more guilty and rejected and as you say snl "less enthusiastic".<P>I really have no answer here. I can honestly say I never berated my STBXH for bad morals, or weakness of character - he came up with all those terms on his own and I never even agreed or endorsed them. But I did and do feel that getting out of a long term marriage through an affair is awful and hurtful for everyone concerned. My H agrees. Yet he also knows he did it anyway. Without coming back to ever really try to repair or even jointly understand the failings of the marriage - (i.e never ending OP relationship). This simple dichotomy - the fact that we have a shared value that only one of us "held" to sets me up in my H's mind as "better". And in my case it doesn't matter if I was "worse" at a whole lot of other vows - those others like "cherish, honor, love" tend to be much more two-sided - we can both find lots of examples where we fell down here. Our guilt and regret are fairly equal. <P>We could never overcome this and will soon be divorced. But my feeling is that even in reconcilliations that work, the BS must own and heal their feelings of rejection and the WS must do their same with their guilt. Ironically, this is accomplished in much the same way I think. Working on yourself (FOR yourself), building self esteem through friends, activities, self-examination and improvement, etc. And yeah, I know the lovebank theory is important too - but I really have no personal experience of this in reconciliation.<P>What I find sad, is that even now, 3 years after the affair started and 2.5 years after discovery, I can still feel rejected just being in H's presence - as I know he can still feel guilty just being in mine. With all the healing we have done independently, we are still triggers for each other for those awfully powerful emotions - simply because of our roles in the demise of the relationship.<P>Well - I reread this and it sounds depressing and I don't really want that. I think I just wanted to convey that, snl, do you sometimes think you are avoiding feeling the terrible guilt that you must inevitably work through at some point - just like your W, by continuing to blame and project at you is still seeking to avoid facing her feelings of rejection? This is where the Harley's approach can help I think. Accept the feelings - embrace them even, but perfect the behaviors..and maybe, just maybe the feelings will fade and change over time, and in the meantime-you won't have done anything to make the feelings worse by behaving badly. I am hoping this will work for me - not with the goal of reconciliation, but of healing.<P>Something to think about...Or I could be completely off base... <P>Good luck to you both,<BR>Starpony

Well it's really to bad when children get in the way of having sex on the side. They kind of ruin everything. Why shouldn't we be able to have sex with who we like and when we like it? It makes us feel good. Marriage is too constricting. Maybe without children, people can have this kind of thinking. If you want sex with people other than your partner divorce first. People make mistakes and marry the wrong person. OK, if there are no children start over and try again. If there are children, what about them? They pay a very big price for their parent's infidelity. One person is happier, maybe several other lives are ruined. Is this a good tradeoff? In a just me, me, me world maybe so. A spouse that constantly tempts fate by flirting probably does feel like property when their nomal spouse disapproves of their activity. Adults should do what they want. But what about the children?

Starpony - That was a beautiful response... Thanks for it.<P>zen

zen...I cannot see the justification or benefit of breaking marital vows unless the marrige is abusive. This sort of situation is the only time that I could see it being in the "better interests" of the spouse to leave the marriage.<P>snl...You said "I", only your wife can assess this for her, that is the risk one takes in a relationship, either party can unilaterally, for any reason, end it, and the other can only accept that decision. (not to mean one cannot express their feelings about it, or suggest alternatives).<P>zen...On the other hand, I believe that if my W were to end her A, take some time to consider who she is and who she really wants to be, and then was to recommit to our marriage, I believe she would gain deeply as a person, that she would gain strength and substance from her decision.<P>snl...And you have every right to attempt to "persuade" her, but not to coerce her. <P>zen...Any time I've ever made a promise and then broken it, whether it be work-related or family-related, etc., I have never felt the same satisfaction and character that I've felt when I've *kept* a promise. <P>snl..That is idealized zen, and suggests you don't have the ability to discern or admit when you have made a promise you cannot or should not keep. There is a name for this, it is called false pride. Let me ask you something. You promise to help a friend out with a loan for his house payment, for which he will be foreclosed on if he misses it. In the interim you are fired and only have funds left sufficient to make one house payment....make yours?(where your sah wife, and kids live), or his?...do you keep the promise?<P>zen....I think that keeping the promise to our marriage would ultimately make my W feel better.<P>snl...Perhaps in your specific case, but not true as an absolute. The trouble with vows is they cannot account for future events. It is psychologically impossible for human beings to keep such a vow (under all circumstances), therefore it cannot be the absolute basis for a behavioural choice (although it can certainly be a factor).<P>zen....So why is my W having an A? Well, among other things, she blames finances, the fact that we had a relationship that helped contribute to the end of her first M, and that she "thinks she's in love" with this OM.<P>snl....Her reasons, while of import to you, are not up for approval by anyone but her, and therein lies the rub. The moment we do something to coerce someone for what we want, we are on dangerous ground....where does it end, and what happens when "we" get coerced back?<P>zen...It is my opinion that my W is making a huge mistake. It is a fact that she is hurting me by breaking this committment. <P>snl...No one has the power to hurt anyone, each of us decides how to respond to life. But I hear ya zen.<P>zen...I still love her today, and I believe in the committment. It's just a matter of choice and belief in marriage.<P>What do you think?<P>snl...I think you plan a/b until you no longer want to. If you are right, and your wife is worthy, she will return. If not, you made a bad marital choice, and should accept that, grieve, and find someone with whom you can have a mutually nurturing relationship.<P>

I was wary of this topic line when I first saw it! What this heck--I think this society is further along than African bush society where wives are property, or an ancient oriental society where a widowed woman must die along with her husband because there will be no one left to earn her livlihood.<P>I didn't not really read your replies, Sad n Lonely, but I am wondering if you are feeling "trapped," perhaps, or imprisoned. I don't think that marriage should be like that--and I think that you should study your wife's true perceptions of you and ponder why you should feel this way. From what I have read of her posts, I don't think that she considers you "property," so to speak.<P>When my husband left me for his girlfriend, on Christmas day, 1998, I cried, and I begged, and most of all, I tried to understand. Then, I let him go. He is another person, I do not own him, I do not control his life. He only thought that I tried to do that--it was a battle of wills. Only it was him fighting for control that he had all along, and me simply trying to prove that I loved him.<P>So, I let him go. I took off my wedding ring, tearfully, and made preparations to move on with my life. I am a very independant person by nature, so that was not hard for me logistically. But I loved him so--and I had to keep that love to myself.<P>I think that is why we are here together again, in the end, because I did let him go to fend for himself.<P>I really think that you should reconsider your wife's perceptions of you. Like me with my husband, she is probably not trying to use you for livlihood, or control you, or force you into a role that you do not want to be in. But that's how you perceive it, for some reason.

lex...In fact, my H and I had a rather heated discussion about that topic yesterday. He cannot understand how I can continue the course of action I have chosen (the affair).<BR>He will continually tell me that I have no morals, no integrity, no values, no conscience. He cannot understand this, because most people would consider me to be a person whose beliefs and character would not allow for this sitation to occur.<P>snl...I can understand the conflict over different valuers re character etc. I suspect you might feel the same (as he) were you not so angry, or were the tables turned. I do not deny I violated my own morality, but my character is unchanged (how can it not be, I am the same person from one day to the next). So instead I must deal with my moral lapse in a way that brings self-understanding, rather than mindless guilt, or accept others blaming me. And I have done so, am doing so, am doing the work. But I have to say lex, I can find no psychologically sound path that allows for simultaneously being married, and conducting a comcurrent affair. One or the other has to go, there is a small period of overlap, since we aren't robots, it takes a little while to come to grips with what to do, but it is not a long period of time.<P>lex...I blame my H for the changes in me. I blame him (myself as well) for the situation we are in. So while he is berating me for being the lousy person I have become, I am blaming him for it to begin with. If he had been the person I needed this would never have happened. Basically he wants to turn back the clock and have me be the person I was before the A. I will not go back there.<P>snl...I don't know how much of this was to make your point, I am reasonably sure you know no one can "change" us without our approval (well unless you are in a concentration camp, or other physical control). But yes, the obverse of blaming the ws for not "complaining" is blaming the bs for causing the affair through neglect etc. Both positions are of little value, and support the victim mentality that is so alluring to us (and releives us of our responsibility for our own choices in life, and our own mental health). I take the opposite tack, I am responsible for everything that happens to me. I go to the party store at 1am for some ben and jerrys triple chocalate fudge, and get hit by a drunk driver and lose a leg.... thay is my fault, I chose to take that risk when I got behind the wheel...and blaming the drunk driver for the rest of my life will do more damage to me than the accident.<P>lex...I also feel like a prize to be won. And at the same time, why does he want to win me? I am not the wife he had before, and I never will be again. He continually says he doesnt like or understand who I have become. So why does he want me? hmmmm.....cuz he wants to change me back into the person I was before. That was a very unhappy person -- and he can't seem to understand why I dont want that.<P>snl....While many bs do get past this, controllers often don't. They will not accept your escape from them, and will do anything to "win" you back, you are indeed a prize.<P>lex...Zen and others -- I see a lot of posts about honoring committment and marriage vows. One thing I would like you to consider is the change in values that is necessary for someone to participate in an affair. My H often talks about "sin" and "vows." It does absolutely nothing to sway my thoughts. In order to have an affair, I personally lost my relationship with Christ. I no longer pray, I no longer attend church. So if my faith is no longer a guiding force in my life -- do you think that the idea of "vows" will make me stay in my marriage?<P>snl...Hmmmm, I am sorry to hear this lex, I really am. Your husband has little authority to quote sin and vows (let he who is without sin cast the first stone....said Jesus to the crowd wanting to kill the adulteress). But faith is not about sin, it is about believeing Jesus was the son of Gods, was crucified, died, rose, and took away out sins giving us everlasting life, if we believe this....if you still do, your faith is alive. Re marriage and vows, and adultery, and such, much of the common thinking about this comes from the interpretations of wo/men, and they are not right, can't be, would require perfect knowledge. I have looked a lot at scripture, and thought alot. A few things have become clear. <P>1. The Bible does not say with certainty when marriage has occured. Other than to define it as oneflesh, which is not further defined. I seriously doubt it happens simply cause we go to church and say I do. If it were that simple we could just go to church and say I believe. But God knows the truth of our hearts, and I suspect many marriages are not marriages as well, due to insincerity, or lack of capacity to make such a committment on part of one or both.<P>2. Indeed God does say what I have joined let no man take apart. Ok, that doesn't mean God will not enjoin us to leave a marriage. No one can say with cetainty what God's will for us, except us. Is a personal issue, and surely an al-powerful God can and will do as he pleases, including using divorce as a remedy.<P>3. God hates divorce, we all hate divorce, who wouldn't hate divorce. That does not mean one cannot divorce, and in fact scripture allows for it, therefore marriage is not an absolute.<P>As for me, along with other issues, I struggle with determining God's will for me, but my faith has not been affected at all. I know God gave me a brain and the ability to reason on purpose, none of us are suppose to just accept what others say. I wonder how many folks who make the vows argument have studied all the marital scripture in detail, and engaged in in-depth argument.<P>

s&c..I think I can understand why the WS feel like property. I have often wondered if my W feels that way. I know from a BS standpoint, that we feel like something has been taken from us and that feeling probably comes across to the WS as them being property to be owned. I would like to offer another slant. As the BS, I do not feel like I 'own' my W. I do, however, feel like a very large investment of my life has been taken from me. <P>snl.....No offense, but I have a problem with seeing any difference between investment and property. For a marriage to work (IMO) all "investment" must be freely given, with absolutely no expectation of return. To the extent one feels a return is needed, one projects their spouse "owes" them, ie is property.<P>s&c...I have invested love, commitment, money, and hard work in my marriage, only to have it taken from me. There is a very real feeling of loss - <P>snl...I understand that feeling, but projecting it on ones spouse is problematic. The moment one does so we enter the world of accountants, and must now tally up who owes who what, a recipe for....... well divorce. Cause one may end up feeling they will never be good enough, or beholden, or... <P>s&c...I feel that OM has not committed to the investment that I have and is actually reaping the benefits of my investment (might sound kind of wierd - I'm sure).<P>snl...Sounds very weird, so your wife owes all that she is to you huh? Maybe you have benefited even more? Maybe you owe her, but she is letting you go without paying up? Is all about who keeps score, and IMO is a useless focus. As for om, who knows what value your w places on his investment, only she can say, and for now it seems to be enuf (even if she regrets it later).<BR> <BR>s&c...For me, I do not feel like I own my W, but I do feel like I own the investment that I have put into our marriage and I can't stand that being taken from me.<P>snl.....That pretty well sums it up, no offense guy, but......... me me me me me me me me me me me. Sure sounds like a contest over property to me, albeit with the best of intentions.<P>

I do not want my H to be happy continuing in the affair with the OW, and the reason is fairly simple. When I married my H I was sure I was marrying a good, honorable man. For the next 19 years, I believed he was a good, honorable man. Having an affair is wrong and terribly hurtful. Good, honorable people feel remorse when they do something that is wrong, and they don't continue to do it. If he could be happy continuing in the affair, that would mean that he was not, in fact, good and honorable. Since I don't believe that one's character can change significantly, that would in turn mean that I was mistaken for a quarter of a century. I refuse to believe that my H is not the man he seemed to be for his entire adult life.