cali...my H even asked me if him staying was like me winning some kind of contest...I told him, honestly, at first it was...<P>snl....see see see, I KNEW it was true A+ for radical honesty.<P>cali...And, though I love him, the touch of him, the feel of him, the smell of him...I have to let go...I feel it in my bones that if he doesn't leave and come back in his own time (if he does) we will just repeat this over and over...<P>snl...I think you are right marsha, this is how it always must be.... for anyone, about anything.<P>cali...SnL you have made so much growth here...give your W the chance to grow as well...just as she can't speed you up or slow you down...You can't do it for her either...<P>snl...I know, and I am. One thing I do that is not good is make excuses for others behaviour, try to smooth stuff over, I am not a conflict avoider per se, but definitely a wannabe, I have stopped that. I am letting her be responsible for herself [of course that has been easier since I have been getting crucified for the A ]<P>Or...Therefore, you have given away a piece of yourself to someone other than your mate. Stolen? Yes, taken what you have already given to your mate and shared it with another. Do you have that right? Yes, after you are divorced, not before. That is why your relationship with the OW is an Affair and not a marriage. So why are you trying to have a marriage relationship with someone who is not your mate? <P>snl....ok, kinda like an indian giver (no offense to any native americans on board), ok can see that. Why trying to have a marital R? Well LeAnne that is a good question, but not one you think much about until it is waaaaay to late.<P>or...If you want to play house or footsey with another woman, go ahead but divorce your wife first. Come on now, be fair. Look who is really treating their mate as a commodity. Your W (like myself) is just being vocal about not wanting to be treated like a 2nd fiddle. Do you like being treated like that? I think not. Guess what? Me too.<P>snl...Yes, true. But my question was more about the nature of reconcilliation not so much choosing one person over another (instead of both) I agree with that. <P>Or....You don't like when your W says those things that make you look bad or feel bad? Well, is it true? If not then you need to let her know. <P>snl...I do.<P>or...This is just my opinion. I am dealing with these issues with my H. SNL, you know how I feel and honestly you may be able to deal with a total stranger and have more empathy for me or others than your W. If so, then can you see her in that light?<P>snl...That is a good point, and one I am not too guilty of. I have been insensitive, and we have had some awful fights, but I generally treat her with respect, and apologized whenever abusive..... and she has said sorry too for some LB stuff. <P>or....Off subject, I want to let you know that I am happy to see that you are able to work well together. I am glad when I read your posts about how you are able to talk to each other and have a working relationship. I too would like to be able to have that kind of relationship with my H one day.<P>snl....Thx, I don't hate or dislike my wife. We just have "fitting" problems, and some other FOO issues. The concern is whether we can have a passionate marriage, not just an accomodation. <P>or...I am not saying you are a bad person. Just one who has had some bad judgements and made mistakes that have hurt yourself and others (family, ow, ow's family and others included). You do have redeeming qualities. I believe your W see those and desires you to work on displaying those<P>snl...I suspect most folks have redeeming values. But I am really confused over the issues of how well one fits another in an intimate relationship. If I am not happy, neither will my wife be, we do have some very serious issues that impact this. I am not used to letting my wife see the inner me, I have hidden him for a long time cause she was not very good to him. She wants a chance to revisit this, so I am giving it a try, I don't intend to hide myself away anymore.<P>SNL....Bramble, Sounds like you figured it all out, am so glad is working for you.<P>Please understand, I say these things not to anger you but to help you see it from the BS standpoint. Neither is free from guilt, however neither should we throw off our personal guilt for others to carry. <P> <BR>

Hi Snl,<P>This post is in response to Lexxy's post earlier today. I did respond but my system temporarily shut down so I will try now to respond again. <P>Lexxy,<BR>In reply to your post, I would like to first say that 'vows' are important to me. It shows respect one has for keeping their word. I do not recall focusing on the death to you part of the vow vs love honor and cherish. You either keep the whole thing or it is invalid. A vow is a promise. Another type of promise or agreement is done in the financial world called a contract or agreement. Would you enter a contractual agreement with someone who has a reputation for not keeping their word? <P>Ah, yes there are a lot of excuses for not keeping one's marriage vows. Heard more than I care to hear. Yet not one of them has convinced me it was worth breaking the vow with an A. Is there such a thing as a justified A? Many WSs have tried to justify theirs and when all comes out in the wash, they all look the same.......no true long lasting justification for the A, just a lot of pain and suffering.<P>Now what about A and divorce? Valid to divorce because of an A? Marriage was never right to begin with? Found the soulmate? Too many problems to fix? Not in love with you anyway or anymore or ever? <P>Ok, even given there is 50% truth to those statements, why can't you divorce without an A? Weren't your reasons just as strong or do you have to be talked into it to strenghten your reason to break your vow? <P>Let me give you a real life example: Here is an OW who does not value her vows, her word, Ws's word or anyone else for that matter: <P>1. Warned the WS to watch out for families, they will try to talk you out of the A because they don't like OW. No one knew about OW at that time. Hm...... now why wouldn't they like her? <P>2. To get back at Ow's H, OW allowed one of their vehicles to be repossessed. <P>3. Allowed their home to go to foreclosure. <P>4. OW had money but wanted to teach her H a lesson. <P>5. OW's learned his lesson, he and OW lived separate and supposedly are divorcing.<P>6. OW had an affair. <P>7. WS broke it off, said no more contact. Ow agreed. OW calls back the next day and the next and the next. <P>Let's see, how was OW on keeping any kind of promise, word or agreement. Would you sell her your home with the promise to carry a 2nd loan? Would you go into business with her? Would you encourage your son, brother or friend to date and marry this person?<P>Now what do you think of this OW's reputation? Is she real or am I just making this stuff up? My imagination is not that great. I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. Nope, this is for real. <P>Are all OW's like this? May be not, but many are not far off from being like this and there are probably worse ones out there. This one was bad enough for me. I certainly don't want to deal with OW or anyone like her anymore. <P>This brings me to another point about do the BS's think they are better than the WS? No, we just don't do or think the way the WS do. Now I have seen several WS's who make this charge but I do not see the BS (as a rule) strut their stuff (so to speak) and say they are better. I do see many BSs struggling while the WS is out their having a time with their OPs (then have the WS say it was not that good). <P>Please explain that, if the WS says the time with the OP was not that good and they are better off with the BS, then why are they out there? To torture themselves(ws)? Why can't they see that they (ws) are torturing the rest of their family? Or can they see it? If yes, what??!?!?!?<P>How about blaming the BS for the A? Well, WS sure tried that one and from what I can see so have many others. Ok, go ahead. This blame better be right and stick for life. <P>Did it? In my situation, H tried to blame me. OW hopped on that one and kept blaming me. This woman never even met me. When it all came out, WS realized that I really was not to blame for the A. Yes, we had marriage problems that we both were to blame for but none of our problems justified the A. H knew that but OW refused to acknowledge that point. Why? Because acknowledgment of that would mean OW was a deliberate contributor to the breakup of a marriage and guilty of bad association. So the one who breaks vows, contracts, etc, is also a liar. <P>What a reputation. Can she do more damage? Yes, she did. But that is another story. <P>Back to SNL's question about feeling like property? I have told H that what he did makes me feel lower than dirt. That is property which in some cases has no value.<P>Another point about feeling like property? Some OWs actually say that they own the WS. 'He is mine, not yours.' That is what I heard on the phone. So I guess some of you Ws's are a commodity or property.<P>That is a BS's perspective. <BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 14, 2001).]

Often the WS says: "If you really love me, then you will want only one thing: that I am happy. So if I'm happy with OP, you should agree, because you love me". In the end I might have to say thank you to the OM that he makes my wife happy? Would this be love? This gives me a headache, because it sounds so wrong. Suddenly I am the bad guy, because I don't allow my wife to be happy with another man. I am the selfish one, because I want her for myself. <P>A lot of things have been said already. With some I agree and with some I don't. Definitely I'm not better than my WS. Who can say who is good or bad except for God! We know that noone is good enough in God's eyes. That should be clear. I need my WS to forgive me for my failures and I need to forgive her for hers. If her failure is bigger or mine, doesn't matter in the end. I feel very much wronged by my wife. I feel terrible for the many times I neglected and hurt her, but I'm quite sure that the pain I face through this affair is much bigger than what she had to endure. It is wrong to be unfaithful, and as much as the BS may have failed as a loving spouse, it does not and never will justify breaking a marriage. <P>I hate the word love being mentioned with an affair, because it's not what love is about. There might be feelings of being in love, or being attracted or even satisfaction or whatever. But it can't be love. Love means to neglect my needs for the good of another person. I take from me and give it to someone else. Love is a decision, not a feeling. Love is a committment. When we marry we committ to this kind of love. I know that I haven't given my wife the love I should have. It's now in my pain that I realize what love is about. Selfishness and love cannot exist together. You have one or the other. Affairs are always about getting my needs met, no matter what. It's always about the person living the affair. It's egoism at its worst. This is not love.<P>We all hunger for the real, pure love. We want to be loved without conditions, for the person we are. We search for this kind of love, we long for it. But we don't want to give it to somebody else, because it would mean to give up the selfish part in us. So we try to find a way to get this love without conditions, where we don't have to give the same love back. This is a ugly human fact and we are all the same. I'm like this, my wife is like this and you are most probably too. <P>When I married my wife it was clear that we will stay together through good and bad times. Nobody forced her to committ, it was a free choice. But it is a contract and sets very clear guidelines for the future. Thus it gives security and becomes a place where deep, unselfish, giving love can grow. When she allowed herself to be happy with another man, she wanted her needs to be met right away, the quick way, and didn't care about the pain she caused. She sure feels sorry for the pain in a way, but her own happiness was more important to her than mine. Is this love? It is not and time will proof it. She might be "happy" for a while, but the end is always very dark. <P>My wife is not my property, but she promised herself to me and thus gave herself freely to me. So did I. Now she took it back and gave it to someone else, even though she promised to be mine for the rest of her life. This is unfair and wrong. That's why I feel cheated, betrayed and terribly wronged. This hurts so bad and raises thousands of questions. I want a wife that loves me. I can't hold her back, I don't want to be a prison for her. She left and it was her choice. I asked her to stay and work on our marriage, but she couldn't. I let her go. <P>Love doesn't mean that I am happy for her that she found someone else. Love means that I treat her with respect even though I think she is so wrong. Love means that I don't hate her, but keep my heart open for her. What she is doing is wrong and she will have to face the consequences. I'm not happy about that. I wish she would have never than it, but tried to work on our relationship. She decided to run away and find her "happiness" somewhere else. What she found is selfish love and it will fall one day. Maybe she will return, maybe she won't.<P>If I want to be loved, then the first step is to love others. Give up my selfish desire. The true and real love is something that grows out of brokeness. I want the best for my wife. An affair is not the best I think. It is always destructive and selfish.<P>Mike<P>You can gain the world, but if you loose your soul, you have lost it all. You can try to live happily in an affair and maybe you succeed. But if not in this world then at least when you are standing in front of God, you will pay for your decision and it's not worth it. Better be a little unhappy in this life, but know that you are right with God. Of course this is absolutely contrary to the inner voice of our ego, that wants instant satisfaction no matter what the cost. We all fight this battle. BS and WS. If we love truely then our ego must be dead. That's why the bible says that you truly love someone, when you are even ready to die for this person. I guess we are all far from this. But this would be love.

I never felt like I "won" over the OW when my H decided to stay with me. I think all three of us lost. There were three very hurt hearts in this mess. Granted, I did not ask for this and H and OW did invite this mess into all of our lives, but I don't know how much that really all matters right now.<P>Yes, I do feel that my H allowed his integrity and morality to crumble, so does he. However, on the day I learned of his affair, he said "I am a terrible person." I said, "No you aren't, you are basically the same good and decent person you have always been. You have made a terrible decision that has hurt me, but you can once again be the person you used to be." I have never doubted his ability to make the difficult journey back to the person he once was and the person he says he would like to be again.<P>Yes, in some ways I do feel morally superior to my H. I try my best to keep those thoughts to myself and I try my best to remember that that feeling is an incorrect assumption on my part. During Mr. Job's 7-year affair, a wonderful man came into my life as a friend. I had no idea of the A at them time, I thought that my husband was too religious, too moral to have an affair. I did know that my needs were certainly not being met and that I wasn't as happy in our marriage as I wanted to be. This man began to look very attractive to me. When our friendship even faintly looked like it had the chance to become something else, I backed out of the friendship. I knew that even if all that happened was that I thought about this man too much, fantasized about a life with him, that I was damaging my marriage because my focus was turned from where it should be. Yes, I think that I made the moral choice (to put my focus back on my marriage and see what I could do to make it better). I think that Mr. Job made the immoral choice, to satisfy his needs somewhere else instead of putting his effort into the covenant relationship he had already entered into. Here's the rub: I made the moral choice, but that does not make me a moral person. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." Nothing I can do can earn me my way into heaven. I only gain that by recognition of my own sinful state and my aching need for the Grace of God. If I chose the moral path here, there are many ways in almost every day that I have failed to do the moral thing. I am a human being; I am inherently unable to live up to God's holy standards. We have both failed to "love, honor, and cherish" equally valid and important parts of the marriage vows. We have both failed each other and hurt each other. The trouble is, my husband failed me in the way that hurts a human being the most and is the hardest one for me to get over. <P>Of the three of us in this triangle mess, I think my husband is the one who got hurt the least. He learned that two women want him, what an ego boost! I'd like to know that two men wanted me and were willing to go to great lengths to prove how much they wanted me. Then again, at times, I look at the guilt he carries and think that I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, live in his skin.<P>All that said, if you want to see some people treating others like property, the relationship between a WS and a rejected OW makes at least as interesting a case as this one. Often in their minds they had the "true" love; they tell themselves the WS went back to the BS only for the kids, or only out of some sad sense of obligation, or whatever excuse they may use to make themselves feel less rejected. In many, many cases they hang on long after the WS has ended the A. They continue to try and disrupt the marriage; they will do almost anything to avoid the pain of rejection. Affairs are all about rejection and the pain of being rejected. <P><BR>Just my thoughts, <BR>Mrs. Job

mik...Often the WS says: "If you really love me, then you will want only one thing: that I am happy. So if I'm happy with OP, you should agree, because you love me". In the end I might have to say thank you to the OM that he makes my wife happy? Would this be love? This gives me a headache, because it sounds so wrong. Suddenly I am the bad guy, because I don't allow my wife to be happy with another man. I am the selfish one, because I want her for myself.<P>snl...You are not the bad guy, you are human, and want what you want. We all "assume" what we want for someone else is in "their" best interest, therein lies the rub. We cannot do that for anyone, unless we are willing to accept they will also decide what is "best" for us....most humans are unwilling to do that. So yes, IMO a spouse who is divorced by their partner (for any reason), if they love them, will indeed wish them the best, and assist them in being happy any way they can, or they don't really love them, they love what they do for them, a big big difference.<P>mik.... I need my WS to forgive me for my failures and I need to forgive her for hers. If her failure is bigger or mine, doesn't matter in the end. I feel very much wronged by my wife.....I'm quite sure that the pain I face through this affair is much bigger than what she had to endure. <P>snl...This is a self-serving statement, one made often by bs, there is no justification for it. In my case I "feel" (right or wrong) I was neglected for 23 years, yet I am now told compared to having an A it is as nothing.....I don't think so. It is the usually comparison of death by a single blow, or a death of a thousand pin pricks, it is all death.<P>mik..It is wrong to be unfaithful, and as much as the BS may have failed as a loving spouse, it does not and never will justify breaking a marriage.<P>snl....You have to define wrong, that is a moral assumption, and one bs cling to in their self-justification of their role in the marital breakdown. The point is I resist (and I realize my bias) all attempts at placing value judgements on these issues (for either bs or ws). There is no right or wrong, there is only what happened, and what to do about it. IMO trying to place coercive (no matter how cleverly done), manipulations on ws is a waste of time, and counter-productive, they have already made their desperation known, and such efforts just validate that they are objects to be owned. This is not just philosophical musing, this is first hand experience, and is part of how I feel. <P>mik...I hate the word love being mentioned with an affair, because it's not what love is about. <P>snl...That is one of the biggest mistakes bs make. It is very much about love (although it often might not be). Everything a person feels or thinks about the op is no different than they experienced about person they married. You cannot ask your ws to "love" you and then say they can't possibly love the op. If the "feelings" they have for op aren't valid, the first thing that crosses our mind is how can we love you then? What the bs must be prepared for is that their ws in fact does love the op, and may very well always love them. If the bs tries to destroy that they are seen in a very negative light (and rightly so). However, loving op does not necessarily mean you don't or can't love your spouse, and reality means you (ws) will have to choose. The bs has a lot going for them, but they squander it when they focus on "fixing" the ws, or guilting them.<P>mik...Love means to neglect my needs for the good of another person. I take from me and give it to someone else. Love is a decision, not a feeling. Love is a committment.<P>snl...Another dangerous assumption. Love is a decision, but it is also a feeling, and the bs who uses this argument is choosing a dangerous strategy. If it is only a decision, then maybe the ws will choose the op (ignoring the love they still may "feel" toward spouse). As for love being sacrificial, keep in mind the ws is willing to give up the benefits of current marriage, accept the social stigma, and the potential ravages of divorce for the op, quite a committment don't ya think?<P>mik...When we marry we committ to this kind of love. I know that I haven't given my wife the love I should have. It's now in my pain that I realize what love is about. Selfishness and love cannot exist together. You have one or the other. Affairs are always about getting my needs met, no matter what. It's always about the person living the affair. It's egoism at its worst. This is not love.<P>snl...There is no functional difference between an affair and marriage, they are both about human bonding choices, and both are made at primal levels well below the cultural expectations re marital "rules" etc, that is why A are so difficult to deal with, they are very very real. The only difference is the consequences of the action. We prefer people to divorce before focusing on another, but if that happens then we chastise them for not working harder before divorcing, a hierarchy of expectation in other words. What bs (and ws for that matter) need to understand, is that when an A occurs (a true affair, not a sexual addict type), the ws has divorced you, the old marriage is dead, gone. The divorce is unilateral, but it is no less real. My wife has asked me how could I love another, and act on it, while married. I know why, when I chose the ow (at whatever point the shifting allegiances in me finally recognized that reality), I "unchose" (divorced) my wife. Neither marriage, or divorce is about licenses or decrees, it is about itntent, what is in your heart. All the crying, remorse, guilt, unhappiness, anger, retribution, regret, on both parts is not going to change anything, the marriage ended. All that can be done is accept the wreckage, and hope your ws is willing to revisit dating and remarrying you (or vice versa), that is the focus of plan a/b, and it is the correct focus IMO. What I see here, is all to often, the bs simply cannot grasp that reality. It is an enormous blow to their well-being, they can either dwell on it to no good end, or take action......... realize they are better off and do a legal divorce, or fight like heck to become (as long as they are true to themself) the a person their ws will want to remarry.<P>mik...We all hunger for the real, pure love. We want to be loved without conditions, for the person we are. <P>snl...Yes, and I think that is what love is about.<P>mik...We search for this kind of love, we long for it. But we don't want to give it to somebody else, because it would mean to give up the selfish part in us. So we try to find a way to get this love without conditions, where we don't have to give the same love back. This is a ugly human fact and we are all the same. I'm like this, my wife is like this and you are most probably too.<P>snl....Yes, mik, I agree. I suspect this is not something you can find or do with just anyone, hence all the marital problems we see, people do a poor job of mate selection. One of the tests (IMO) of this kind of love is that you cannot "choose" to do it. If it happens you will be "compelled" to do it, you won't be able to not give it. As long as you have "found" one who responds the same way, you have found the holy grail of oneflesh. I think maybe we can gauge how much we love someone to the extent we protect or gaurd ourselves, the more we love the more vulnerable we allow ourselves to be. It is a ultra high risk choice, many will simply run away than bare themself that much, or will simply not be motivated by the other (that mysterious chemistry) to do so, or are dysfuntionally unable to do so (many married people should never have been allowed to marry anyone). It is an interesting (and frightening) place to go, total vulnerability, maybe someday I will write a post about it. <P>mik...When I married my wife it was clear that we will stay together through good and bad times. Nobody forced her to committ, it was a free choice. But it is a contract and sets very clear guidelines for the future. <P>snl...So for you intimacy is a matter of contract, you owe me, so get in this bed NOW? I think of it more as a choice, one that has to be made everyday, no gaurantees, freely given. The trouble with vows is that we try to gaurantee future feelings by a present day promise, can't be done.<P>mik...Thus it gives security and becomes a place where deep, unselfish, giving love can grow.<P>snl...Love will never grow from gaurantees, in fact the more one expects what you just said, the less likely love will grow. Love can only grow when it is completely unfettered.<P>mik...When she allowed herself to be happy with another man, she wanted her needs to be met right away, the quick way, and didn't care about the pain she caused. <P>snl...You don't know that. Ws mostly care about pain, but the primal drives that dictate who we see as a potential mate are stronger than the desire not to cause you some pain. We all "know" intuitively (although we say otherwise often) that each of us is responsible for our own mental health, our feelings. We know you will get over it, and if you don't that it is your problem. It may seem unfair, but another human reality is the more dependent you are on your spouse for your emotional well-being, the more you drive them away, who wants a weak partner?<P>mik...She sure feels sorry for the pain in a way, but her own happiness was more important to her than mine. Is this love? It is not and time will proof it. She might be "happy" for a while, but the end is always very dark.<P>snl....I don't wish to make you feel bad mik, but your assumption here is that you are the best choice of spouse for you wife, many take a similar stance, it just ain't necessarily so. These are the kinds of deepseated assumptions that reduce the likelihood of a successful reconcilliation, and it is why I bring this stuff up. There is no real mystery to any of this, moose worms, or alien abduction notwithstanding, it is basic human psychology 101, and to the degree the bs (or ws) seeks to get an A in the glass, is the likelihood they will be successful in relationships, this one or future ones. <P>mik...My wife is not my property, but she promised herself to me and thus gave herself freely to me. So did I. Now she took it back and gave it to someone else, even though she promised to be mine for the rest of her life. <P>snl...So, you would have her say, Mik, I don't love you, I don't want to be here (radical honesty requires this), but cause I made that contract with you, I will stay forever. This is acceptable to you as the basis for the rest of your married life? She simply does her duty, waiting for one of you to die?<P>mik...This is unfair and wrong. That's why I feel cheated, betrayed and terribly wronged. <P>snl...Yes it is, life is a b****, and then you die, such is human reality. Your feelings are understandable, and justified, however, how you choose to act on them is optional. If your actions are driven by those feelings, you greatly reduce the likelihood you will be successful in your desired outcome.<P>mik...This hurts so bad and raises thousands of questions. I want a wife that loves me. I can't hold her back, I don't want to be a prison for her. She left and it was her choice. I asked her to stay and work on our marriage, but she couldn't. I let her go.<P>snl....And now you have to let yourself go, there will be another mik, who will love and cherish you, but only if you are open to it. <P>mik...Love doesn't mean that I am happy for her that she found someone else. Love means that I treat her with respect even though I think she is so wrong. Love means that I don't hate her, but keep my heart open for her. What she is doing is wrong and she will have to face the consequences. I'm not happy about that. I wish she would have never than it, but tried to work on our relationship.<P>snl...Sounds fair enuf to me.<P><BR>mik...You can gain the world, but if you loose your soul, you have lost it all. You can try to live happily in an affair and maybe you succeed. But if not in this world then at least when you are standing in front of God, you will pay for your decision and it's not worth it. <P>snl...Don't go there mik, you cannot say what God's will will be. True losing ones soul is a serious business, but temptaion comes in many guises, and being a wronged bs may very well be one of them. Be sure you don't lose your soul.<P>mik...If I want to be loved, then the first step is to love others. <P>snl...The first step is to love yourself. Good luck Mike.<BR>

SNL,<P>thanks for your reply. Unfortunately you seem to misunderstand and misinterpret much of what I wrote. I guess you provoke a little on purpose, because the BS talk is getting on your nerves. Some of the BS talk is getting on my nerves as well. You criticize that we BS don't understand the WS. Well, no I don't, but I try to. The same way you seem to not really understand the BS. <P>After reading your posts I have to conclude that in your opinion marriage is not really a realistic thing. You fall in love and then you fall out of love and move to the next person and all starts from the beginning again. That's what we see all around us, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's good and the best way. I want more than that. I know I'm not an easy person and there are probably other man that would be a better husband to my wife than me. And there are probably other women that would be better wifes to me than my wife. Whatever better means, I don't know really. The point is trying to make this marriage work between the two of us. Thinking that there might be somewhere a better person for me, is surely not going to help the marriage. There could always somewhere be a better person around, so this would never end. I have met a lot of attractive women that I could imagine would make a good match with me, but because of my commitment this was simply out of question. When I married I decided to let go the option for another woman in my life, giving exclusive rights to my wife. That's how it works.<P>I'm not scared to move on and I can imagine to one day be married to somebody else than my wife. But I honestly wish for my broken marriage to continue. Why? Because there is the potential for a deeper kind of love in our relationship. If we get together again in spite of all the ugliness we have seen in each other, then something new is growing and this depth of love can not be compared to a new relationship. It's a journey and I don't want to quit, even if it hurts.<P>Your philosophy seems to be very different than mine. You seem to think that there is no clear wrong or right. I do, but I don't define the good and the wrong by myself. In some things I might be wrong. I'm not God. But God is very real and He will judge us. I depend on His grace as everyone else. In your eyes my worldview seems to be very narrow. I'm aware of that. In the end my worldview doesn't matter, because God sets the standard. <P>I really don't want to come across judgmental. Sorry, if I did anyway. I believe in love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. But I believe as well in justice and that there are consequences for what we do. If my broken marriage is the consequences of me not loving my wife, then I have to accept it. Life goes on. I learn and move on. It makes me sad though, being confronted with my failures without being given the chance to make it better. I have done all I could to save my marriage, sadly after the affair happenend. I wasn't given a fair chance before that. That's truly how I feel.<P>I can't and don't want to manipulate my wife. It is up to her to make her decisions. As a WS you will probably never really understand what we as BS are going through. But please if you hate so much to be put in a box, then don't do the same with us.<P>peace<P>Mike<BR>