Hello, just sort of an update for you all, and maybe a call for encouragement with Plan A. I may be slipping.<P>Last week, my W and I signed our separation agreement on Wednesday. That night she told me that she wanted me to be around less at our house, that she didn't feel like we were separated. I had been coming over after work to be with my step-daughter, and then leaving when my W got home... apparently that was too much contact. W told me that I didn'r "get it" and that she thought she was in love with OM and we needed more separation. I managed not to LB.<P>I backed off. This weekend, on Saturday, step-daughter and I had a great visit... I picked her up, and we did all kinds of stuff. She really likes my apartment, too much I think.<P>On Sunday morning, I talk to W on phone. She is friendly, I tell her I'm going to be doing some shopping, she asks me to pick up something for her. She says she isn't trying to "push me away" but that we just need to work out our schedule so that she, I and stepdaughter aren't together a lot as it will be confusing. She asks if I can come Monday after work to check homework, etc., and leave before she gets there. I say I can and will, and I would not be there that late anyway as I have some things I have to do myself. She starts in with "What do you have to do? Where are you going?" then "You have a girlfriend, dont you?" This is said playfully, not as if she really cares. She almost sounds like she wants me to have one.<P>Then she really made me angry. She called me late afternoon (Sunday) and left a message -- she had questions about out taxes. But she told me "don't call me back, I'm going to be with OM." She said this so matter of factly, as if she were telling me she was going to her mom's. She repeated to not call her on her cell as she was going to be with him. And she had gotten a babysitter to come to the house while she went to see him.<P>Well I did go by to see stepdaughter last night (Monday). She was great and I didn't stay too long as she had a friend over and they were into their playing. I instinctively wanted to "do things" like clean up the kitchen, straighten, etc., but after last week's conversation, I really got the feeling that my W wanted me to back off. I really felt like the "little things" were unwanted. Plus, I wanted her to maybe see what it's like to do it all by herself. And I guess I was a little angry still about the Sunday night thing. (Did not show any of that anger to her.)<P>Can you believe that when she and I talked on the phone last night, she mentioned that I had not rolled the garbage receptacle back up the driveway for her, that she was going to have to do it herself? This is a little thing that I have done forever unnoticed. Maybe she's been noticing all of my little Plan A attempts.<P>Now I feel like I've let our conversation last week cause me to back off and compromise my Plan A. <P>Thanks for letting me rant,<BR>zen<p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited August 14, 2001).]

Sounds confussing to me, but what else is new, right. I would think she is pushing you into Plan B whether she wants it that way or not which I don't think she does... I wouldn't know though. I've only been here about 2 months.

ZEN,<P>Sorry to hear about your seperation agreement. I believe my W is getting ready to serve me some as well. I'm going to refuse to sign unless she agree to at least 6-10 months of counseling. <P>I do not not what to say to you other than continue on with Plan A. She probably has been noticing (trash can) and you do not realize it and she may not even realize it unless things like that happen. I have tried to do things like that as well. Leave things undone around the house that normally would be my chores and then do things that would normally be hers. Not all things though, keep in balance, do ot want her to think she is not needed either. <P>I hope that you find an equal balance between SD, W and you and PLan A. This is hard but we should and will be better for it. Take Care and God Bless!<P>GC

Zen, <BR>Remeber that Plan B (which I never did very well)is to PROTECT the love you have left for her.<P>I think it's possible that she is wanting it both ways. Her fantasy w/OM and the "good"(nuts and bolts) stuff you do for her. <BR>AND if you have a girlfriend...she'll feel less guilty and definately validated for having OM. careful where you go with this one.<P>Do what works for you.<P>D2k<p>[This message has been edited by Discovery2000 (edited August 14, 2001).]

zen- I understand your not knowing what to do. It feels as if you need to second guess the other person before you do something. I would suggest that you do what you feel is in your heart as to what direction to go. I think to that in the back of her mind she is missing what you have done by the way of little things and when they stop or are cut back, those little things that show her how much you love her make her fearful to some degree. By doing Plan A and treating her the way you have been, at least you know that you have tried. I have been Plan Aing and I am having a somewhat similar experience. My wife and I have not had what one would call a typical marriage in that although we are in the same house and sleep in same bed, it feels as if we are roommates and not husband and wife. Over the weekend we had a discussion and she said she couldn't love me as a wife does. I will add here that she apparently has been having an EA but the feelings she has about us have been there for some time. I have been praying that God will change her heart. Prayer does help Zen. I will continue to do what I feel in my heart and along with prayer this thing will work out. Good luck to you and I hope that your wife will see that you really do love her.

Thanks for your replies... I really appreciate them.<P>M&J: You know, that's just what I thought last week... She's trying to Plan B me! But I agree that I don't think she really wants that. Much better to have cake + eat it too.<P>gdc: I think that's an EXCELLENT idea about the counseling. I really feel like an idiot now for not including something like that in my agreement. You've really got my mind humming on this idea, however... I have some "leverage" that I would never normally use against my W... but maybe this is an exception... Perhaps coercion is justified in this case... Lexxxy would say no way.<P>Discovery2k: It could very well be that she is trying to have both worlds... but my "nuts and bolts" is probably nowhere near as important to her as OM's world. And I don't have a girlfriend.<P>golfer: "2nd Guess" is my middle name these days. I can empathize with your situation... Has it always been "like roommates" with your W? I think my W does see that I love her. That's just not what she wants right now.<P>I just got off the phone with her. She has given me a few opportunities to Plan A, so I'm going to go for it. I have to remember what Steve says: If you feel like a doormat, you're doing it right...<P>Thanks again,<BR>zen

Steve said that ? HMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I'll have to keep that in mind...Thanks for the tip. And Good Luck, you know what you need to do.

Actually, Steve elaborated. He said if you feel like:<P>1) a total doormat<P>2) you're "enabling" them<P>and<P>3) things are totally unfair because you're FIGHTING to meet ENs and NONE of yours are getting met<P>then you are doing a good Plan A. There are caveats to this (for example, don't literally endorse the A) but this is basically the gist.<P>zen

Zen --<BR>I hesitate to say this -- cuz you will just kick yourself even more about not including it in your agreement -- but I (as a WS) would very likely agree to counseling in a separation agreement.<P>I am feeling very torn, but right now am leaning toward moving out and separating from my H. If he were to stipulate counseling as part of our separation, I would agree to it.<P>Here's where it probably gets a little weird but here's my thinking. It a way for me to "have my cake and eat it too."<BR>OM wants me separated from H. If I don't start taking action I will lose him. I don't want to lose him. I am by no means certain that I want to spend my life with him, but I want him in my life right now.<P>If H were to require counseling as a condition to separation, it would be my perfect way to continue working on the marriage, but still be able to be with OM. <P>So now you're thinking "why would I want to do that?"<P>Well......it buys me more time to let the relationship with OM end. I can see all the obstacles in the way of OM and I being together. I just can't end it. Hard to explain. <P>So even knowing all this, I am pushing for separation from my H. Because I am tired of living my life from the wrong position. I am tired of him having the high road. I am tired of being unfair to him. I am tired of being responsible for his unhappiness. I've seen many people say "if you're gonna cheat, then divorce your spouse, be fair to them." So thats how its gotta be.<P>I dont feel like my thoughts are very concise and collected this morning, so this reply will probably create more questions than answers. Sorry Zen!<P><BR>

Lexxxy:<P>Are you really my W? <P>Seriously (and I'm not trying to kiss up to you) your posts are incredibly insightful to me. A lot of what you say is what my W has said, and I think the situations are very very similar.<P>Which is why that last post actually makes a ton of sense to me. I think it's a very close variation of what my W is doing. I'm not sure how convinced she is that her relationship with OM, but I know that she is NOT certain that it will really work out.<P>I get the whole "have your cake" bit... I'm trying to let my W do that.<P>Like I mentioned before, I have some "leverage" that I used to add details to our sep agreement. Now that it's signed, I guess I could resurrect that "leverage" in suggesting that we talk to another counselor. How do you think she would react?<P>z

hmmmmmm....I think it would have been better if your counseling request would have come within the context of <BR>the agreement. Both spouses are expecting to have to do some negotiation and give in to requests. I think it would have been easier for her to agree to it -- and provides a good excuse to the OM on why she's doing it. She "has" to.<P>Not knowing what your leverage is, its hard to say whether or not she might feel pressured or manipulated. Its worth a try. <P>Just remember, (ugly as this is) she is going to have to justify going to counseling with you to her OM. I guess if your goal is to get her to do it -- make it easy for her to have a ready explanation.

You've gotten some great feedback - I don't have much to add. <P>If you're still going to plan A, did you apologize for not taking care of the garbage, etc.? Just a thought - to really plan A, apologize - you just didn't think about it, and then take care of it like you WERE doing. So sappy sweet... I know when I do sweet, thoughtful things for my H (plus I act very forgiving, understanding, flexible - a whole new ME) he notices and feels sort of guilty and is softening up. <P>SOunds like you're doing good to me!

Thanks Lexxxy. I'm totally with you on the whole justification to the OM thing. My "leverage" basically is that I have information that would be very unpleasant for OM, W, and other parties should it come to light. I think trying to use this suggest counseling is a mistake... But there may be another way to do it. I think if I can suggest it as a way to help me, and if I offer to help her in other ways, and if I make certain that she knows I'm not expecting her to do anything (i.e. break it off with OM until she's ready to), then she might go for it. She said she would talk to Steve -- he told me to ask her if she would. Thanks again. I really appreciate your feedback.<P>Faith: I can't remember if I apologized. I was kind of shocked that she noticed in the first place. I'm going to keep up the Plan A. How are things with you these days?<P>zen

Thanks for asking. I haven't posted an update lately - there's really nothing new to post. H came over last Thursday and last night to finish our taxes. No LB'ing! Nothing good OR bad to report really. I asked him if we could go to a movie and dinner one night this week and he said sure. SO we'll see how that goes. He had his ring on again last night, but after he left, he came back to get something and didn't have it on. Just as I suspected, he only puts it on for ME, then forgot. But at least he puts it on for me, I think that shows he's thinking of my feelings. When he came back and I noticed, I very gently said, "You could just leave your ring here, if you don't want to wear it." He looked confused, and said "No, why?" I waited and smiled, he said again, "No. I want to keep it." I dropped it. Oh well.<P>Then later he sent me 2 nice text msgs - like he was actually thinking about me. <P>Overall, things are going well, I think.