I think I just LB'd big time. I have decided to turn in my 30 days notice to move out of my rental house with my 3 kids, and move in with a friend for a couple of months. This way, I can pay off some bills, and when my husband decides to work on the relationship, we will have a little less stress. I was planning to tell him this weekend, but he beat me to it. He told me today that he felt like I really needed to move out of the house and move in with someone so we can pay the bills off. He basically stole my thunder. <P>We talked about the logistics of that for a little bit, and I got upset and began to cry and told him I couldn't talk to him about moving because it upset me too much - made me sad. He got angry with me. He said why do you always have to cry? I said, if I knew we were making progress, I probably wouldn't cry so much, but I feel like your moving backward. Are you? He said, I don't want to talk about that right now because you'll just cry, and I'll lose my appetite (he was eating lunch). I said, sometimes I want to talk to you about us, not about business all the time. He got really angry. He said, why can't you just ask if the sun is yellow or the sky is blue? That hurt. Basically, he wants me to ignore my feelings, and my need to talk things out, and pretend like nothing's happening, like he is. He said, you haven't changed. I said what is it I haven't changed? I said you have to let me know what I'm doing wrong so I can fix it. I said my greatest desire is to make you happy. He said, your greatest desire needs to be what makes you and the kids happy. I said of course that's my desire, but I'm talking in regard to our marriage. He said not to try to make him happy. I apologized several times for "beating him down" with the issue of us. I said, I'm sorry for bringing it up, but I thought since you brought up the house it would be okay to talk about us. I told him I wouldn't bring it up again unless he wanted to talk about it, but asked that he please talk to me about it sometimes. He basically began ignoring me - wouldn't talk to me.<P>I don't know what to do? I don't know what I do that is an LB - obviously talking about us is an LB to him, and crying, but how can I not cry, and how can I not talk about us progressing? Please help!<P>I just want to give up and move on, this hurts so much. I just want to go out and meet someone and let them hold me for one night. I am so lonely. I haven't had anyone to hold me in almost 5 months.<P>How do I know when I LB, and won't I keep pushing him further back by not knowing? Apparently, much of what I do is an LB to him all of a sudden. I don't think I've changed (other than my weight) since we got married, and I've already lost all the weight. What else is there? He still won't be intimate with me, he won't even hold me. <P>Can't I tell him that I'm lonely, and I need someone to at least hold me? Can't I ask him to do at least that? Why won't he be intimate with me? He says he hasn't been with anyone. I just don't understand.<P>Two weeks ago, he was all about, "I need to work on my resentment. I don't know what I want." Now he seems to be shifting away from me again. I am so lost - I just want to QUIT!<P>I am crying like crazy now, and I'm at work. This is killing me!<P>TIG

Trusting in God, I'm sitting here reading posts this afternoon because I can't do much else today. So I probably have little I can say to help, but that I am listening and feel for you. This is such hard stuff to go through. I can off you the only hug I can {{{{{{{{{{{{TIG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>hope you can feel that and I hope someone with a bit of heart left this afternoon comes quick.

Yes that was a LB. I've been there. Was there for about 6 or 7 months, before finding PLAN A. Now I think before I talk to my WH. Monday my WH moved out on good terms to find himself. He has been open and honest with me a lot lately. <P>Anyway, on Monday I asked H a lot of questions. Just when I was about to ask another I said "You're probably getting tired of me asking these questions arn't you?" His response was "Yeah, yeah I am." So needless to say I didn't ask it.<P>I think it is like nagging to the WS. The more you try to push and pry the more they will pull away. I know it is difficult believe me, but it works. Leave them initiate the conversation, but also don't ask too many questions when they do or you'll be back to square one. Once your H feels safe talking to you without your emotional outburst(crying and questioning), he will began to talk.<P>I must warn you. Not everything he says is what you want to hear. (My H told me about the sex..., but Hey I already knew I sucked in bed.NOT ANYMORE THOUGH )But DON"T LB!!!! The more you LB the more you will drive your H away. <BR>I can't express this enough!!!!!!!!!

He said I haven't changed. Do you think I went too far? That it's too late? Please reply...<P>TIG

TIG,<P>i agree with the others, it is so hard for us not to bring it up especially when they do. I have stated the turtle anaolgy before, but maybe you need to hear it. What happens to a turtle if you poke and prod it? Yes, it retreats farther back into it's shell. WS's are just like the turtle. In order for us to get answers or at least some glimmer of hope, we must create a safe environment for the turtle (WS) to stick it's head out of it's shell. Reconciliation must have these ingrediants.<BR>1. Create safe environment<BR>2. Best defense is no defense even if you know your right.<BR>3. Be prepared to shoulder some of the consequences and conditions of thier sins.<P>It's also probably hard for them to forgive themselves much less them thinking that we can forgive them.<P>I pray everyday for my wife, I pray that God will make her life so miserable that she will have no where to turn but the lord and his love. I truly believe in all the MB principles, but remember God can change a heart in an instant and that is what I want. My wifes heart to be changed by God and live a marriage under his love.<P>GC

You are absolutly not too late!!!!! You havn't followed through on PLAN A as good as you possibly can. Keep trying.

You know, if I would just leave it in God's hands and quit trying to rush things, I'm sure he would've been back by now. But, nooooo, I have to keep sticking my sticky little fingers in the candy dish. Why can't I just have a normal conversation with him, without bringing it up, without acting like I'm angry with him, without acting like I care about what is going on with us because I KNOW it's all going to be okay. You see, I've already received a message from God that he is going to fill the void in my life, yet I can't seem to let myself just be happy with this. It's so hard not to rush him into coming home, especially when I'm having to move my family, and I have a 5 mo. old that's only getting older without his dad around enough.<P>It would be so much easier just to say forget it and move on.<P>Thanks,<BR>TIG

Dear TiG,<P><<<hugs to you>>>> To move or not to move. Hard call. <P>What is an LB? Is crying an LB? Is letting your H know your needs an LB? <P>TIG, you will need to realize that to your H right now everything you do may be construed as an attack on him. Why? He is in the fog, in denial, up to his you know what in the muck he has created and he may be too confused to know how to get out. So he lashes back at you.<P>Do you measure an LB by only his reactions? No. You measure an LB based on the reason. Did you say it to hurt him? <P>It was brought to my attention early on that an LB in plan A may not necessarily be an LB in plan B. Why? For the reason. Plan A vs Plan B have different reasons. <P>Ah....when I finally let that one sink in I was able to move forward. I honestly tried to be careful. I thought about what I said to H and how I said it. I said less and less with regret but I still spoke what I needed. The delivery was important to get the same message across. <P>Yes, it works. You need to remember the addage "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." While this is not always true, you need to not let your H's words stab you as hard as they are. Why? Because that is NOT your H talking, he has taken on a different character one strange to you and your family yet because of other familiarities, you are treating him as the same family member and become awfully frustrated when he reacts as the stranger. <P>One thing I did during this frustrating time was calmly tell my H that I did have important things to discuss with him. I wrote them down. The business stuff, then the personal stuff. When I presented it to H, I was shaking and let him see it. H asked why. I calmly as possible told him I felt I was talking to a stranger and was nervous. Then I presented my list of business things. Discussion ensued. When anger arose, I began shaking again and H now knew it was because I felt uncomfortable talking to a stranger. Business items covered. Before I went to the personal list (which he could see that I was holding onto more info), I calmly as possible (with a few tears) asked my H to please find my real H so I could please disucss these personal items with him. I love him so and would like the opportunity to speak with my real H. With that, I ended our discussion. <P>Within 2 weeks, H came back to try and have the discussion (actually more like 2 days but it took about 2 weeks). Progress went from there, not all forward a bit backwards but progress none the less. For me, it gave me strength and knowledge of who and what I was dealing with. <P>See when the A happens, our mates are making a relationship with the OP, thereby turning themselves in a stranger. You know like when our kids start hanging out with new friends sometimes their attitude changes maybe for the worse? Same difference. What do we tell our kids? Do we tolerate that kind of bad influence behavior that would damage the family? So why are the WSs allowed to damage the family with that type of behavior? <P>Let me know what you think.<P>Thanks,<BR>L.<BR>

Orchid,<P>I agree, he does act like a child. To the best of my knowledge, which is very little, he doesn't have another woman involved. But, he could always be lying.<P>Anyway, I guess I just don't understand why he can't sympathize with my feelings. I mean, he's turned my life and my children's lives upside down, and he doesn't even act like he knows this.<P>When we talked about moving out, he wanted to make sure I wasn't making this HIS fault. He said, so you've been thinking about this, so it really has nothing to do with me. I just kind of smiled. He got angry with that, calling it a sarcastic smile. I said I'm not mad. I mean, this is all happening as a result of him leaving, of course, but my final decision wasn't to make him happy. I decided to move so I could get some bills out of the way so that if he decided to work on the marriage, we could at least not have that stress.<P>I just don't know what I do that is an LB to him. He won't really tell me. Sometimes he gives me bits and pieces, but nothing concrete. I ask him to point it out to me when I do it, but he says I should know when I'm doing it or it does no good. How do I identify the LB's without making withdrawals?<P>Any thoughts?<P>TIG

What do you think about me telling him that my moving is a step forward in my life. Telling him that I am going to move forward, with or without him, and when he decides to come back, he can try to catch up with me. I REALLY want to say this to him - to let him know that I will NOT hurt forever, that I will eventually HEAL, and if he's smart he won't wait too long!<P>What do ya' think? Probably not a good idea, huh?<P>Thanks,<BR>TIG

Trusting... I know how you feel. It's so hard to just keep on keeping on when you look at your spouse and have absolutely no inclination as to what is going on in their storm-tossed minds. So often, I just want to beat it out of her, and find out what in the world she is thinking. But we can't do it.<P>The only LB-sin you might have committed was the fact that you pushed him for some sort of response as to where your marriage is headed. In my not-be-humbled opinion, this is a minor infraction and you shouldn't worry about it. He doesn't have the answers you are looking for. And even if he did, he doesn't want to share them right now, because like most WSes at this stage, they are more concerned with the feelings they have for the OP than those they have for you.<P>Don't panic. It is not over. Just take a step backwards and let him be. Show affection towards him and every time you see him, pretend as if you haven't seen him in three years. He will appreciate your love, and maybe regret his outburst. Regardless, take care of yourself, don't worry yourself about it.<BR>Find a shoulder to cry on. It can do you some good. I would offer mine, but the internet doesn't do much good in that respect. I know how hard it can be to have that touch all the time, someone to hold, and then no longer have it, but it can be a dangerous thing if you think about it too much. It is too easy to fall prey to someone looking for someone just like you - that will use you just because of your willingness. I'm sure you know this, just be careful.

Hi TIG,<P>For me, I let H know that my plans to move out were because his actions were displacing his family. In our case, I fronted monies and displaced current bills to keep on top of the family and H's old business bills. While he was out there having a time (good or bad didn't matter it was money being spent on him and OW and not our family). <P>So when all was near exhaustion, I let H know yes he was the reason why his family was going to move out and that now we had to rely on others to care for us until we could get on our feet after being abandoned by the husband and father of this family. <P>Big LB? Maybe to him, but remember this was not a threat, it was the fact. H needed to be aware of this whether he liked it or not. It caused a few heated discussions, I kept my stand and explained that this was not an option, in this state bill collector's or the divorce rulings will go after the spouse that has the money to pay for bills accrued while married. So much for the better or worse scenario. I was going to get the short end of the stick and if you think H was not going to feel it with me, he was wrong. This was as a result of his decision for whatever reason he conjured up. FAMILY DISPLACED BY WAYWARD FATHER AND HUSBAND. Would friends and family know? Yes. How much? That would be up to me or H. Then whatever conclusions they came to was their own, I had no control of that. <P>So TIG, you have the weigh your factors here. What are you willing to risk or put up with? <P>JMHO.<BR>L. <BR>

Thank you all for your responses. I'm still not clear, though, how to identify the things that are LB's to him when he won't tell me. Any thoughts on that?<P>Thanks,<BR>TIG

Hi TIG,<P>Here is what I put in my previous post, please read and let's discuss:<P>"What is an LB? Is crying an LB? Is letting your H know your needs an LB? <P>TIG, you will need to realize that to your H right now everything you do may be construed as an attack on him. Why? He is in the fog, in denial, up to his you know what in the muck he has created and he may be too confused to know how to get out. So he lashes back at you.<P>Do you measure an LB by only his reactions? No. You measure an LB based on the reason. Did you say it to hurt him? <P>It was brought to my attention early on that an LB in plan A may not necessarily be an LB in plan B. Why? For the reason. Plan A vs Plan B have different reasons. <P>Ah....when I finally let that one sink in I was able to move forward. I honestly tried to be careful. I thought about what I said to H and how I said it. I said less and less with regret but I still spoke what I needed. The delivery was important to get the same message across. "<P>********************************************************<P>I will try tonight to find more LB info. (Now I have given myself 2 assignments - whew!!). The point here is to understand that your H will consider everything an LB vs a true LB. LBs are when you are trying to hurt not help. Delivery also contributes to either making an LB or not. <P>Does this help? Again, I will try to get a quote on a more professional level (from the Harley books). <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P>

Hi TIG,<P>Here is what I put in my previous post, please read and let's discuss:<P>"What is an LB? Is crying an LB? Is letting your H know your needs an LB? <P>TIG, you will need to realize that to your H right now everything you do may be construed as an attack on him. Why? He is in the fog, in denial, up to his you know what in the muck he has created and he may be too confused to know how to get out. So he lashes back at you.<P>Do you measure an LB by only his reactions? No. You measure an LB based on the reason. Did you say it to hurt him? <P>It was brought to my attention early on that an LB in plan A may not necessarily be an LB in plan B. Why? For the reason. Plan A vs Plan B have different reasons. <P>Ah....when I finally let that one sink in I was able to move forward. I honestly tried to be careful. I thought about what I said to H and how I said it. I said less and less with regret but I still spoke what I needed. The delivery was important to get the same message across. "<P>********************************************************<P>I will try tonight to find more LB info. (Now I have given myself 2 assignments - whew!!). The point here is to understand that your H will consider everything an LB vs a true LB. LBs are when you are trying to hurt not help. Delivery also contributes to either making an LB or not. <P>Does this help? Again, I will try to get a quote on a more professional level (from the Harley books). <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P>

Hi TIG,<P>Here is what I put in my previous post, please read and let's discuss:<P>"What is an LB? Is crying an LB? Is letting your H know your needs an LB? <P>TIG, you will need to realize that to your H right now everything you do may be construed as an attack on him. Why? He is in the fog, in denial, up to his you know what in the muck he has created and he may be too confused to know how to get out. So he lashes back at you.<P>Do you measure an LB by only his reactions? No. You measure an LB based on the reason. Did you say it to hurt him? <P>It was brought to my attention early on that an LB in plan A may not necessarily be an LB in plan B. Why? For the reason. Plan A vs Plan B have different reasons. <P>Ah....when I finally let that one sink in I was able to move forward. I honestly tried to be careful. I thought about what I said to H and how I said it. I said less and less with regret but I still spoke what I needed. The delivery was important to get the same message across. "<P>********************************************************<P>I will try tonight to find more LB info. (Now I have given myself 2 assignments - whew!!). The point here is to understand that your H will consider everything an LB vs a true LB. LBs are when you are trying to hurt not help. Delivery also contributes to either making an LB or not. <P>Does this help? Again, I will try to get a quote on a more professional level (from the Harley books). <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P>

TIG,<BR>GQ went down this afternoon, so I don't think anyone could answer your last question.<P>LB's are usually angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and annoying behaviors. Sit down and make a list according to those categories, of ways that you "commit these sins" . Anything that bothers him - you know what some of them are - anything that makes him "clam up", get angry, respond sarcastically, roll his eyes, or flat get mad, yell, or leave. <P>From your story, crying and talking about the marriage are big LB's. I know you have a need to do those things, but Plan A is about learning to meet his needs right now. Forcing him to talk about the marriage will NOT get you anywhere. It WON"T get you the answers - and MIGHT get you some answers you don't want. <P>You've got to get control of your crying - get on anti-depressants or something. I didn't want to, and I put that off for too long, and now that I'm on it, I can control my emotions MUCH better. And try to talk to him about easy topics - sort of like you are dating. Yes, the weather (sun, sky, stars - like he said), a funny TV show, your friends, your family, the kids, and ask him about his work. Be interested in his life. encourage him.<P>Hope that helps. COme and vent here anytime.

Dear TIG,<BR>Was going over your descriptions and sorted out your behavior into the love busters as Faith1 recorded. DISHONESTY is also a love buster:<P>EXAMPLES OF ANGRY OUTBURSTS<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TIG:<BR><B>...apologized several times for "beating him down"...<P>"...can't have a normal conversation without acting like I'm angry..."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>EXAMPLES OF SELFISH DEMANDS<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TIG:<BR><B>If I knew we were making progress I wouldn't cry so much...<P>...stop ignoring my feelings...<P>I haven't had anyone to hold me in almost 5 months, why won't he be intimate with me?<P>It's so hard not to rush him into coming home...<P>I don't understand why he can't sympathize with my feelings?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>EXAMPLE OF DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENT<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TIG:<BR><B>I feel like you're moving backward, are you?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>EXAMPLE OF ANNOYING BEHAVIOR<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TIG:<BR><B>crying<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear TIG,<BR>You asked what is a love buster and just from the outside looking in VERY objectively, I was able to come to this conclusion by sorting what I was reading into the categories. Don't think for one minute that I do not sympathize with your pain, it's just that when we are suffering so much, it is difficult to see what we are doing because our spouse's withdrawal is sooooo confusing to us.<P>To me, it sounds like the biggest turnoff for your husband is when you cry. Harley has an article about this. It goes back to the policy of joint agreement, but anyway, the name of the article is called <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5053a_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>Overcoming Annoying Behaviors</A><P>Harley has also written about what is necessary to regain intimacy after one or both of you have gone into withdrawal, and that is, MORE conflict! So beware! You will need to go through more conflict before you can make the journey back to intimacy! My heartfelt prayers are with you!