I'm curious as a BS is there anything inparticular that your BS did or you feel if they would have done helped or may have helped you come out of the fog? Woud like to hear from the WS's out there. Thanks.<BR>cybil

Cybil, my H performed a serious fog-lifting move - he left me for 10 days. Believe me, the prospect of losing him (not to mention the realization of what I'd done) was enough to make me snap out of it.

C,<P>well i skipped this thread at first, thinking theres nothing i can offer, then i read another of your threads and well maybe there is.<P>let me share where my head was at d-day.<P>I was sure, absoultly sure, as sure as i was about anything in life that when my W knew she would be in a way happy, yes happy, i just knew that she was only in our marriage out of obligation to her vows, or religious conviction or what ever i did not believe she loved me at all.<P>in fact i was convinced that i was simply the inconveniance that came along with the paycheck. you see i was exhausted, i felt as though i had been screaming at the top of my lungs for years that we were in trouble that the fact that i purchased one "your marriage is in trouble" book after another and asking her to go to counseling and literally for years i remember buying the first one my oldest was 3 that was 7 years before the A. <P>i tell you all that so you have an understanding of TIME, the attitude i had was the accumulation of feeling rejected and abused over time. The words I love you even in the heat of the discovery of the A meant nothing, as her actions never indicated that to be true.<P>she could and still say those words and they literally have no meaning to me from her. they are just words. what i needed was actions. i needed her to do the things that reflect love in action over time in order to feel loved by her.<P>how can you love someone and not seek to meet their needs? it just never made any sense to me. so i understand what your H means when he says he doesnt believe you love him. <P>I dont doubt that my wife loves me, (now) but the problem is that without the actions i cant feel her love. does that make any sense? that no matter how much she loved me she never did the things that gave me the feeling of being loved. (never met my EN's).<P>I can tell you that even though i was completely out of contact with OW for over 6 months i was still in a fog, not necessarily the fog of being in love with OW but knowing agian what if felt like to be loved, and being clear that my wife even in the face of all that had happened was still not willing to make the effort to give me that.<P>It was clear to me logically that she loved me, or she would have kicked me out for good, so now what, i still didnt feel loved by her but my mind knew that it had to be true. I WAS/AM Miserable. how can she love me and not Want me?<P>what could she have done? what can she do now? SEEK TO MEET MY MOST IMPORTANT EN'S. make me feel loved through her actions, do it over time and consistantly. <P>Harder to do than say i am sure, and to date she has been only reluctantly participating, but i can tell you that even the little that she has done has had dramatic effect on me and i am as in love with her as i ever was once again, but her reluctance takes a toll and i have radical mood swings trying to be in love with her again. If she would only act in a loving way, no in the loving way my soul undestands and feels love then, i would be so very much farther along this path.<P>and i believe that it would have snapped me out of the fog much much sooner than i have come out of it alone.<P>ps. coming out of it on my own doesnt make me have positive feeling about the W, it once again makes me think she doesnt care. <P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

chazbutler thank you so much!!You have said some things that<BR>truly make sense to me as my H has said those same words to me. We did not get here over the course of 5 months. It's been a long process. I have always loved my H but always put him last. Not always intentionally that's just the way it was. Kids came first,the housework, my job, my friends. I have repeatedly told him how sorry I am for this. I am trying to show him now how much he really does mean to me. He finds this hard to accept because he says he's not use to me acting and treating him this way. He says that he thinks I saw him as a paycheck as stability. He says I was controling. I handle everything at home plus I work. My H works approx. 60 hrs per week and is at work before 5:00am. I know his life isn't easy and I know that my nagging and *****ing weren't helpful. Our marriage has never been a team effort. In the beginning maybe and then we got to the comfort stage. As many times as we have discussed making time for us and going out it never seemed to happen except for birthdays or anniversaries. I love my H very much and want to salvage our marriage but I cannot change him. He is the most stubborn person I know. I cannot save this marriage on my own and he doesn't seem to be ready to try again at this point. He says there are no guarantees. His moods go back and forth. He just called me because he is out with the kids for ice-cream and called to see if I would like him to bring something home for me. I don't get it. Sometimes I feel as though he is trying to teach me a lesson and my counselor tells me its all about control. Although he doesn't live here he is here alot with the kids and I and he is always here in a crisis situation. It's all so confusing to me. Chaz I would really like to talk to you more. Thanks for your input.<BR>cybil

c,<P>I hear your frustration what can i help with? <P>

chazbutler-tonight my H came over and we watched a movie not any contact I thought it was nice he was here 4 hrs. Then I got a phone call from a friend who knows the OW and says that they have been seen together recently. I am so confused and twisted. Am I really that nieve? I feel stupid and feel like how can he play me like this? I have so many people trying to give me advice I feel like I'm going crazy. You said you felt unloved and that's why your A happened? Please tell me if you feel comfortable doing so what exactly you did to hide it from your W? I am consumed with this. I feel in my heart that he would never do this to<BR>me. The only proof I have are the cell phone bills. As I've said she is married to. From what I hear her H is suspicious to. I am at the point of hiring a P.I. AmI insane? Hope you reply.<BR>cybil

c,<P>heres the deal, until you know you dont know, hire the PI, call the H talk to your H.<P>your going to drive yourself insane! i am all for taking whatever steps are necessary to get your peace. LB or not without confirmation your fighting thin air and guessing there is no truth you can count on.<P>as far as hiding it? well to be honest i didnt hide it, when ow would call me and my wife would ask who is it, id answer its my girlfriend, were planing to meet later for wild sex do you want to talk to her?<P>its different for everyone. when it all came down to it i was to big a coward to just admit it, i think subconsiously i set an elaborate trap for her to fall into the information that would confirm it. to be honest unless i had wanted to get caught, i probably would never have been.<P>sorry your going through this.<BR>

Chaz thanks again. I have tried to talk to her and her H. I was successful once and he told me that he knew they were friends but when i mentioned the phone calls he said he wasn't aware of the calls. Every time I get a phone bill her number is on it in one month over 50 calls. I can't do this anymore it hurts to much i am driving myself crazy I need to know the truth so that I can move on. I have caught him in numerous lies. Since I haven't called her home lately I think they are beginning to think I've dropped it for a while. I am going out of my way to Plan A and am trying to meet his EN's. This is terrible but I want her to suffer as much as I have. I don't give 2 s**** about her or her family. It hurts so much to think that my H moved out even though I ask him to leave just to think he did it so that he could be w/her. Of course he will never admit to it he continues to say they are just friends she's like a buddy to him. I just want to blow this A out of the water and either one way or the other this mess will all be over. Either we will begin to recover or we will file for a D. Does that make any sense to you? Why can't he just be honest w/me? I know he doesn't want to hurt me he tells me he loves me and he cares about me. Guess he just can't say I'm in love with someone else. <BR>cybil

cybil,<P>I just dropped in on the tail end of this thread. Regardless of all the proof you have, your H will not admit to anything until he's ready to, and that may never happen. It doesn't matter anyway. Admitting it won't change the way he feels about you or OW. My W has denied her A all along, using the same "we're just friends" line, in the face of considerable proof. I believe "deniers" have a very difficult time admitting what they've done because it goes against their core values and fundamental beliefs of what's right and wrong. They also don't want to deal with the consequences or what they perceive the consequences will be (being scorned by family, friends, BS's). Admitting it means facing the reality of what they've done, which is betraying their spouse and everything they stood for. That's a tough pill to swallow. Not everyone shares the same values, and I think that is why some people admit it and some don't. You know the truth and so does he. The A will end when he or OW want it to and there's not much you can do about that.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 18, 2001).]

sad dad I really do understand what you're saying but this not knowing is killing me. I feel as though I am allowing the A to continue if there is one infact going on. I need to do what I need to do for me to be able to move forward. I can't handle any more lies at least this way I have the truth for me. If I am wrong then I will have to face the consequences if this pushes him more into the A I will have to deal with that also. I feel as though I am slowly dieing inside from all this. I just can't do it anymore. <BR>cybil

cybil...sad dad I really do understand what you're saying but this not knowing is killing me. I feel as though I am allowing the A to continue if there is one infact going on. I need to do what I need to do for me to be able to move forward. I can't handle any more lies at least this way I have the truth for me. If I am wrong then I will have to face the consequences if this pushes him more into the A I will have to deal with that also. I feel as though I am slowly dieing inside from all this. I just can't do it anymore.<P>snl...You already know, it is an affair, and it is in progress. Your options are clear, plan A until you can't stand it anymore, than plan b, unless he agrees to extraordinary precautions. You cannot push someone more into an affair unless you LB. The lies, and your discomfort are making you more prone to LB. You have to make a committment cybil........to yourself. And that starts with letting him go (as in you cannot control or coerce his choices), set your boundaries knowing full well the consequneces (you may end up single) and take charge of YOU, then you will find some peace. Good Luck.<P>Oh yeah, as the ws, re your fog question, can't say..I have my own opinions about fog, it doesn't exist, is just useful imagery for bs and ws behaviour under extreme stess. The fog "leaves" as the stress diminishes...hence plan a and b theories. My w thinks I still have fog (although we are fairly firmly started in the reconcilliation process), because I feel strong feelings for ow (I will always love her most likely). However, the longer I have no contact with ow, the more stable she is becoming re LB and doing her stuff. I think this stuff is situationally dependent on the individuals involved. It took 5 months after D to get to no contact, but partly that was cause of w difficulty with plan a. I never moved out, but came close a few times. However, I am an analytical person, and partly reasoned out all this, and the necessity for no contact (and ow felt the same), for whatever help that is. Clearly of both affair people recognize the necessity to be fair to spouses, is easier, if one is still manipulating for divorce etc. is much harder. <BR>

thanks cybil, for starting this thread. <P>thanks chaz and snl for your answers. they really halp me.

I abree with Faith, this is an excellent thread. It's helping me through the roughest week of my married life. Not to interrupt your thread, Cybil, but SNL, when you say, you came close to moving out, how close were you?