I talked to the counselor night before last on the phone. I told her that my W is still in contact with OM. My counselor told me that until my W knows my boundaries that she will continue to do these things because she knows I will always be there no matter what she does. So last night we had a counseling session together. My W told me to go first. I basically said that I was done trying to make this work. I keep getting my hopes up only to get hurt. It got very ugly. My W again told me and the counselor that I am a creep and a stalker (in reference to me writing down her calling card numbers and calling them). My W said that she has told OM to stop calling, but that he keeps calling anyway (if this is true, then who is the stalker?). She said that this is about her not being able to have friends and that OM is just a friend. She said that I am making demands. I told her that I am not making demands, I just can't keep letting myself get hurt. The counselor told my W that her communications with OM (no matter what capacity) are detrimental to the marriage and that most men would have a problem with it. My W responded by saying, "yeah that's what S&C keeps telling me". <P>I told her that all I am asking is for the communications to stop. Again she told me that it isn't her that is making the phone calls that it is OM. I told her that if that is the case, then she is rewarding bad behavior by talking to him when he calls her. Finally, she angrily said that she would come to my office today and we would call him. I really don't expect to see her. We didn't say anything to each other after the meeting, just got in our cars and left.<P>

S&C,<P>I agree with you that she is encouraging his contacting her if she talks to him at all when he calls. Has your wife sent OM a no contact letter? Even if she has, perhaps a firmer one would be warranted. If she was serious about him not calling and he continues to call, one very affective ways to handle him would be for her to give the phone to you. If you ended up on the phone every time he called, you’d better believe that he’d stop calling. Can you change your phone number?<P>Your counselor is right about your needed to set boundaries. The problem with Plan A is that a person is essentially without boundaries. That is why it cannot be done for too long a time. And if you look at Plan A one of it’s stated purposes is to get your WS to agree to some boundaries. A person need not love bust to do this. It sounds like you did a very good job of that by telling her that this is not about your stalking or controlling her, it’s about you protecting yourself.<P><BR>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

s&c:<P>Boundaries. I think this is one of the most maligned and misunderstood concepts floating around out there.<P>I'm pretty sure than Steve H. says that in Plan A there are no boundaries. This is why he says you cannot Plan A you family and friends as a lifestyle decision-- they'd run all over you. I'm pretty sure you're in Plan A, right? I don't think you're in full-blown recovery yet... I'd keep working with her on the issue of the OM calling but in a kind, loving way, if she'll let you. I would try to avoid disrepectful snooping, etc... You have to regain her trust and have her believe that you are a safe place for her...<P>She is clearly struggling but seems to be clinging to your side. Support that struggle as best as you can. Try to have the patience that this stuff requires... You're in contact, talking about things, dealing with the issues, and there is an attempt ongoing here to make change... Man, I wish I had those things. Be thankful for them.<P>Boundaries... I wish I could have some right now. Plan A is killing me.<P>zen<p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited August 17, 2001).]

SnC,<P>It doesnt sound to me like your wife has a true commitment to the counseling or the marriage.<P>By saying she wants to keep him as a friend, she is saying she is not willing to "no contact".<P>She may be going through the motions of counseling to lessen her role as the bad guy. By going to counseling she can say that she tried but the marriage was unsavable. Thats my impression from how you described the session.<P>I basically told my H a couple weeks ago that I was going to start making plans to move out. At that point he asked me if I would be willing to meet with the Harleys. I told him if it was important to him, I would go. I would be open minded. I would listen. But I am not making any agreements to follow their policies, by going I am not making a statement of commitment to him or the marriage. I will go because he is asking me to.<P>So then, he can't find the phone number. So I find it for him and hand it to him a few days ago. Then he tries to turn it around on me. Asking me if I still want to do this?<BR>(HUH? I never WANTED to do it -- I was doing it for him)<BR>I think he was fishing for some kind of enthusiasm or desire on my part. But I am sticking to what I said. I will do it, BUT DO NOT TRY TO READ MORE THAN WHAT I AM SAYING INTO IT.<P>I really hate having to be like that. I resent having to repeat myself over and over. And I just know he is going to call me about this appointment and look for more enthusiasm or excitement about it from me. And I'll have to repeat myself again.<BR>

I agree with Zen. I see setting boundaries as a love buster. Don't put demands on your WS. You'll push her away. Think of her as a teenager the more you restrict, the more they rebel!!!<P>I was told that boundaries are not to be set until you have made it to recovery...<P>You are in Plan A to "woo" her away from the OM. You have to "buy" her love back.<P>I don't suppose you set boundaries while you were dating each other, did you? Look at it like that. <P>Just my Opinion!!!! <p>[This message has been edited by M&J (edited August 17, 2001).]

So when you are in a relationship with someone (ie: work, family, etc.) and they are known for running all over you, will continue to take advantage of you (knowing you will always be there for them no matter what), then what do YOU do?<P>Do you allow yourself to continue to be treated in a disrespectful manner? Do you really thing the WS will appreciate you more if you cower and cater to their disrespectful behavior? While some WSs make the claim that they don't want to be treated like 'children', their own manipulation with their childlike behavior may at 'times' warrant appropriate action. <P>Ex: Both H & OW felt I would take H back no matter what. In fact that was one of the agruments OW used to keep the A going. '....don't worry WS, your wife will always take you back anyway so let's just keep doing it.....'<P>Well just about the time OW was saying this (Feb 01), I was taking to heart some hard advice being given here. I told H that I did not want 1/2 a man, if OW was willing to settle for a portion, then he needed to give it all to her (dirty clothes, bills and all). <P>Now mind you at times the WS are in warp speed (with the OP) and other times they are in slow motion (with the BS on recovery). Common sense takes a while to sink in. The WS know what they should be doing, they may even want to be doing it but their bad association (with the OP) clouds their judgement and mind and keeps them in their bad course of conduct. <P>What does the BS do under these circumstances? Plan A with no boundaries? Maybe but that may just prolong the A and cause more hurt to the BS and family. The risk here is that the WS may not come back anyway and the family is hurt to the point of permanent damage done to the BS and children. <BR>Lesson of love of family may never be learned and in some extreme cases, others are taught it is ok to step on the BS and family. <P>Plan B with boundaries? Maybe, could also lead to divorce. <P>But think, the boundaries are a statement to show your protection of yourself and your family. It also lets the WS know that toleration of their conduct is not approved by you. It draws a division between you and the OP. Does it force a choice? Yes. There is no guarantee that the choice will be the BS and family. That is the risk taken here. With this choice the dignity and respect of the BS and family generally remain in tact. Support can become more available for the BS and family and this also may cause the WS to look and see what they are missing. <P>In either case, there are no guarantees. So can anyone actually tell you what will work for your situation? No. Educate yourself, prepare yourself but remember the direction is partially yours. Whatever direction you choose, the WS will try to influence it to their way (for the moment) but their influence may not be what they really want or need. So be firm, be resolved to make a clear decision for yourself, the WS and family. Be prepared for resistance of any sort under either plan. You do have a spoiled child syndrome here. <P>Tough love is called tough for a reason....<P>JMHO,<BR>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 17, 2001).]

That's 2 for boundaries; 2 against boundaries; and 1 boundaries aren't an issue at this stage. Any other opinions?

Boundaries!<P>I'm for them when the spouse is actively in an affair.<P>No boundaries in a marriage? I don't recall hearing Steve H say that to me, but its always possible. I'll go with that being so, and put in my 2 cents.<P>In a healthy marriage, with both spouses practicing the MB principles - you care and protect for each other. I wouldn't say the boundaries aren't there...its just that those boundaries are protected by the other person. I'm not going to worry about protecting MYSELF, I'm worried about protecting my H from ME. In a healthy atmosphere, this is going to create an atmosphere of intimate trust and interdependence.<P>But in an affair situation - there is no POJA. Unless you protect yourself, you are going to be ripped to shreds.<P>If you practice the MB principles as if your partner is doing it too, you are going to get burned big time. That's also why you don't do a complete Plan A with everybody - though some of those concepts definitely help!<P>During my first "recovery" with my H, when I talked to Steve H, he constantly told me about Plan A and staying "safe" for my H. BUT, when it became clear that my H was not reciprocating, that I was being hurt over and over again, then Steve recommended that I draw those boundaries - he told me to file for divorce.<P>Now, in my situation, I didn't start talking to Steve until after we agreed on trying to recover. I had NO marriage builders help through my H's affair the first time around.<P>Would it have helped my marriage at that time to have capitulate to his every demand? NO. I did ask my H to move out - for my own sanity. I refused to let him take the kids with the OW. I told him he could take me to court for that right, but he'd never get me to agree.<P>My needing grocery money was a love buster. Should I have Plan A'd by going out and getting a job? I was pregnant, with 2 other children, and had always been at home with the kids. I don't think so. I insisted on being given financial support, and when he didn't, I went to his parents, and they got on his case.<P>I also lined up an attorney. If he had refused, I'd have drawn another boundary - I'd have taken him to court for support. LB? Yes. <P>As long as his outrageous mistreatment of me and our family continued, I let him do as he wished - UNLESS it was harmful to me and the kids.<P>My marriage is now recovering. I don't think my H resents those boundaries. I'll ask him what he thinks though <P>But actually, he KNEW at the time, that I was right. His OW used to fight with him constantly because he kept supporting me, and didn't involve the kids with her.<P>Ultimately, my insistance on certain boundaries was the death knell to their relationship.<P>Did I handle it in a complete Marriage Builders fashion? Probably not. <P>But I did Plan A. I learned to keep my mouth shut when it didn't involve me or my responsiblities. I learned not to bring up the OW, check on him, nag him, or ask for relationship talks. I had to LET GO. That made the biggest difference of all.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

BRAVO Bramblerose. I am learning to do the same and it's working wonders.<P>Okay, Okay the boundaries that you set were in Plan B and for the safety of you and your children. <BR>What I understand is if you don't recieve any responses to your plan A of no LB w/o boundaries,then you pursue plan B.<BR>Which is basically no-contact w/ you, except on important topics such as the children, but you must follow though w/ a GOOD plan A.<P>That way when you go to plan B your WS will think your serious about the seperation. Suddenly, WS will start to recall all the good times the 2 of you have had in the recent months, because you didn't LB OR SET BOUNDARIES in plan A. Then WS will try to get that back.(hopefully--everything is unpredictable....)<P>This is the way I see this working... Just one person's opinion.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by M&J (edited August 17, 2001).]

Well its 1:30 and my W has not shown up to call OM. I guess that was just said to divert the conversation last night at counseling.

Orchid, that was a lovely, lucid post. And Bramblerose (love that name), your story is a good one.<P>I hope no one misunderstood -- I am not saying forget boundaries! But Steve DID tell me that when you are actively Plan A'ing, you cannot have boundaries with your spouse. That's sort of the point... I mean, you have common sense boundaries, i.e. you don't offer to pay for their hotel suite and champagne, but you continue to meet EN's as best you can without LB'ing because of the OP. You sort of grin and bear it that your spouse is having an A. But like everyone else said, you set yourself a limit to this, both because it WILL rip you to shreds and because WS will come to expect and rely on it. Even though I haven't been Plan A'ing that long, I feel like I'm moving fast to B... our separation has been constantly depleting my love bank... Probably unfairly so as there are supposed to be no expectations in Plan A, and I've set some that haven't been met, so I'm sort of the one withdrawing the units... The bottom line is that I feel I need more pretection for myself...<P>zen

Will wonders never cease. No my W did not show up. BUT she did call and apologized for not coming down. She asked if we could call OM on Monday instead.<P>S&C