This post was so good, that I had to bring it into it's own topic. SNL described in a radically honest way, how dangerously easy it is for EA's and PA's to occur. We all like to pretend that this can't happen to us. That our WS's are evil creatures, spaws of the devil. But this could happen to anyone....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> posted August 14, 2001 11:19 AM <BR>by sad_n_lonely<BR>----------------------------------<P>I can help with this from the ws side. I met the ow on-line at a religious debate site. We "noticed" each other in a purely innocent friendly way (we are both decent, ethical, nice people...really). I liked how she presented herself in arguments and such, and vice versa. We interacted in "public" on the forum for a while, then (for the usual reasons) agreed to email each other. It was fun, she was really into the subject matter, and liked debateing, I had a friend, and so did she. Our spouses knew about this activity, there was no secrecy, and they were uninterested in it, or us.....so........<BR>Eventually we started exchanging lit bits of personal info about our lives, including our marriages. Had not the slightest idea this was anything wrong, but of course the affair had allready started, we spent much of our free time together, and discussed deep feelings, etc. etc. At some point we "opened" up and admitted to each other our marriages were empty shells, no emptional content for a long time, this was the commiseration phase, being "there" for each other, and noting how we enjoyed each others company. <P>Email had lost its usefullness, and we had progressed to messageing, for hours every night. Still felt like friendship, but the first inklings had begun to stir, we were minimizing screens, and hiding the extent of our activity....cause our "spouses" wouldn't understand, and might interfere with the friendship (being the "controllers" they are). And we started talking about how "good" of friends could we be, and started fooling around with very mild innuendo. At this point had been in contact about 4-5 months. We were friends, and liked each other, but clearly other feelings were starting to rise. But I don't think either of us felt like we were misbehaveing at this point.<P>One night I finally told her (after several weeks of stuff about liking each other, and saying silly affectionate stuff when signing off for night), I love you. I expected to get cyber-slapped, told no no no, can't go there. Instead she said "you do?".... I said yes, had denied it for awhile, but the feelings were unmistakeable, and did not want to lie or conceal them from her....so she could run away........instead she said I love you too. I guess at that point we sorta knew we had a problem. I was confused, I didn't know how I could feel like this, what was happening, I had led a 23 year married existence with nary a thought about op. I knew I was unhappy, I thought my wife didn't love me (she had suggested divorce many times), my issue was my Christian vows. But even now, (having no knowledge of how A work, sort of naive I guess), we talked about how friends could love each other, we knew no one was divorcing anyone, was simply not an option for Christians. So we accepted the notion of being very good friends, and knowing our boundaries and just being a safe place for each other, one who understood us. We never considered this an A, our spouses didn't care about us anyways, or understood us, but we were aware they wouldn't like or allow this. And we decided it was our life too, and we deserved to have a friend.<P>Not too long after that we went to telephones (we live 2000 miles apart), and spent many happy hours talking, or course we concealed this completely (so the usual secrecy and such started). Believe it or not we still felt this was ok, not an A. But the intimacy continued to increase, each time it did we discussed the "new" boundaries, and justified the behaviour, we weren't trying to hurt anyone. Finally after a month or two of this we had discussions about feeling uncomfortable, about the emotional and psychological connections that were forming, that we were in effect, at every level, making marital type bonds with each other, and turning away from our spouses. I guess at this point we "knew" something was amiss, but essentially we just ignored it, didn't think about it, focused on healing each other from years of neglect, and rationalized our behaviour. Guess you could say we still felt we were just friends, very good friends, special friends....but knew we were violating some marital exclusivity issues.<P>We had not actually exchanged pictures yet, and had fantasized about meeting each other, and a life together (in the abstract, like if our spouses left us, or died, or something), but an opportunity arose to meet, and although we had trepidation about it, we followed through. The ea turned pa within seconds, I was surprised, but it felt very comfortable, an ea can prepare you for this (I know now in hindsight), we were able to meet several times over a week period. This was 2/01. I was kinda in shock after the first time, the ow asked me what was wrong, I told her didn't know, was just too much emotion, but I think I did know, I knew I had just divorced my wife. And the next time I saw her (a few days later), I told her I would agree to a divorce. This had nothing to do with ow, who althouh also distressed saw no way she could leave her marriage, said it was psychologically impossible, she would just have to suffer in it, and live without me....no it was about me, I couldn't remain married to w under these circumstances. I had no intention of telling her, she declined the divorce, and wanted to work on stuff, then she found out shortly thereafter I had some kind of involvement, and everything blew up. I denied the pa for 4 more months, but have started telling her stuff recently, and have stopped (mutually with ow) the A, realizing it must end, and reconcilliation be attempted as the proper way to regain integrity. <P>W still refers to me actions as you went out and had an A. That angers me cause is wrong, and implies a lack of (or interest in) understanding about me, but she is trying I guess, and needs time too. Was indeed a friendship gone wrong, or maybe was an A from day 1 cause there is some mysterious chemistry thingy that is real and we do recognize it on a primal level with another, I don't know. Radical honesty requires me to tell my wife I still love her, and may always love her, even though ow gave me a little grief at the end, and got kinda cold and distant...but who knows what is in my mind, I sure don't, hope that helps some.<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This could have just as easily been written my my wife's lover. VERY similar situations. Started out innocently enough. And just went too far.<P>But here's the question I want so badly to ask my wife, but probably never will... "Why didn't you just talk to me when you were so unhappy? Instead of pouring it all out to him, why didn't you just tell me you were unhappy?!!" I never suspected a thing until the PA was well on its way. If she had at least tried to reach out to me, we might could have prevented it. Maybe not. But I guess she just didn't have enough feelings for me left, to confide in me. =(<BR>

GM:<P>snl's post could have been the way my wife's affair started (with the exception that they met online).<P>I'm sure that your wife did try to reach out to you, as well. You just didn't realize it, at the time. And maybe she used to reach out earlier---and just got tired of trying.<P>There's no doubt that it's easier if the other spouse lets us nicely know what needs we still have to meet, how we're lovebusting... but that doesn't happen. As a spouse, you have a responsibility to find these things out for yourself---even if your spouse isn't saying "boo".<P>Don't kill yourself with "what if's...". Work in a forward direction now.

gm...But here's the question I want so badly to ask my wife, but probably never will... "Why didn't you just talk to me when you were so unhappy? Instead of pouring it all out to him, why didn't you just tell me you were unhappy?!!" I never suspected a thing until the PA was well on its way. If she had at least tried to reach out to me, we might could have prevented it. Maybe not. But I guess she just didn't have enough feelings for me left, to confide in me. <P>snl...I can't speak for your wife, and many bs wonder this, and w has sorta accused/asked me same thing. There probably is no real answer. The implication is the ws knows they are unhappy, deliberately ignores bs, seeks out nice op, and tells them....this is not what happens (as you saw from my post).<P>The truth is the bs lament is rarely with merit. It is a communication breakdown, but thinking the ws never communicated their unhappiness is more a reflection on the bs lack of perception than the ws secret unhappiness. Humans rarely keep unhappiness to themselves, but we express it differently. Some quite loudly, for years (as in my case), and others more passive, and by temperament conflict avoiders.... more quitetly. But these are difficult issues, oft times even the complainers don't really know exactly what is bothering them, they just don't feel loved. And maybe they aren't. Naybe the marriage is "working" for the bs, but not the ws....maybe the ws has issues of their own that prevents them from recognizing they are loved, but whatever the case, the symptons are always there. <P>We don't talk to you (usually), cause in one sense or another we have given up, you won't listen, haven't listened. We don't "think" about this, we just act on it...when someone does listen, we become attracted to them. Sometimes folks stop, and reevaluate, but most often they don't, emotions take over, and reason takes a back seat.<P>The fact is hindsite is 20/20 I doubt if most bs would respond with the attention they do when an affair occurs. There might be a short term relief and then back to business as usual. We (all of us) simply don't have the knowledge necesary, (nor do many counsellors), to deal with deep-seated marital incompatibilities. We use to just simply divorce each other for incompatibility, now we have a body of knowledge to deal with much of this, but it is not very widely known (I had no idea). If the affair happens to involve people who truly like each other, the problem is just made worse, cause now one has to "divorce" the op, it is a big mess. The point being, nothing is gained by bs beating up themself of their ws, I suspect those marriages where the at risk bs, acted quickly and decisevly are a small number, it is just too confusing. The affair happens, if it is repairable you try, if you make a reasonable effort, you can live with yourself in the future.

I swear, there were not any signs in my situation. none. I have gone over this and over this in my mind. He says, what about this and what about that. I thought they were normal disagreements/differing viewpoints. We never argued. We never fought. He NEVER said, I'm unhappy. Never picked up a relationship book. Neither of us are perfect, but I thought we loved each other in spite of the flaws. He told me he did. over and over. Lying in bed at night holding each other... "promise we'll always be together".. "of course". we'll always be together"... "you're the best thing that ever happened to me". There were no signs in my case. He just got caught in a moment of weakness, and convinced himself he was unhappy. Sure - there was plenty to be unhappy about - every marriage has problems - but we had plenty to be happy about too.<P>I know some situations - there were probably signs - but not mine. WS can't blame BS on not seeing vague signals... we're not mind-readers. But Some BS's probably ignored BIG signs.

To all,<P>For every finger that is pointed at someone else, there are 3 that point back at you. <P>So is the old addage and so true. It goes both ways. If the BS that is looking for communication and not seeing it and yet the WS claims they have shown their feelings yet have been basically ignored, is it ok to just give up? It goes both ways, what about the BS that is actively communicating. Not in a silent mode but a known mode yet still the WS accuses the BS of not caring. Where is the logic in that? <P>When both parties (BS & WS) statements or accusations about the other, what are they personally doing about it? From all the posts I have read here and even from my own h's statements, whether the BS saw the signs, ignored the signs, worked on the signs or whatever....these WSs are going to do it anyway. At least for the most part and blame the BS along the way. Then when reality hits, the story or tune may change. In our case it did. H blamed me, OW blamed me and me? I did not know about the A until it was in full swing for 3 months. By then they had convinced themselves that both Bss were not worthy of their own respective mate's love and that they needed to run off and make another life for themselves, plan the divorce and live a carefree life away from everyone because everyone was the source of their 'unhappiness'. <P>Do you buy this logic? From what I see, most Ws's also see the unreasonableness in other WS's situations. My H has seen some of these posts and says that the BS's out there are being taken advantage of and their WS's are being Jack A$$es. Hm...... You know what? A few Ws's have said the same thing about my H. Hm...... <P>Now the $64000.00 question: Why can the WS's see the fallicy of other Ws's but not themselves? At least enough to right the wrong?<P>Oh by the way, I have been informed that in reality, my conduct had little to do with H going out there. Yes, I have improved but the change was not so drastic that it pulled H either way. You know what it was in his case? Himself. H had to reconcile with himself. He even told the oW that he could no longer blame me for sending him out there in the A world. OW did not like that. It make her look like what she really was a perpurtrator and an accomplice. Ow kept trying to put the blame back on me. Mind you this was all unbeknown to me at the time. I only recently learned of this. No wonder OW got angry at me. I made her look bad and didn't even know it. Now that felt good. <P>See sometimes we make progress and don't even know it. So just keep being good, you never know when somebody's watching.....<P>L. <P><BR>

In an attempt to figure out WHY my h's EA happened i asked him him why <BR>his reply<BR> we were going downhill he was unhappy we had problems et al<BR>i asked him why he didnt talk to me about these "problems" <BR>i got 2 different replies for this both when deep in the fog<BR>1) i tried you just didnt listen<BR>2) i just dont feel like i can talk to you<P><BR>so in all aspects i dont recall him "trying" to talk to me<P>and today a year later he still feels he cant talk to me<P>so where do i go?<BR>no where fast<P>now that H is out of the fog he claims he was stupid etc....<BR>however if in fact the reason behind his EA was "someone to talk to" whos to say that he wont go find someelse to talk to since he feels he cant talk to me?<P>i dont know i dont think this helped but it was great to vent<P>thanks

luv,<BR>I think that's a great point / question.... perhaps that's a major part of it. Not that some BS's don't listen, but that we are hard to talk to.<P>ok. <P>so now what. We have to learn how to be easy to talk to. How do we do that?<P>I don't know?<P>Understanding. non-judgmental. interested. sensitive. compassionate. empathetic.<P>Thank you for your "Vent". It really helps me think in a different perspective, and gives me more things to think about in my Plan A. Become easy to talk to. Then that answers your question about the future - and H's temptation to seek another ear.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and today a year later he still feels he cant talk to me<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B>We have to learn how to be easy to talk to. How do we do that?<BR></B><P>I have often thought about this, too. If this "lack of ability to communicate effectively" is what got us to this point, HOW to change it? I think the answers are in HNHN, and SAA. I have almost memorized both books!<P>Especially in SAA, there are sections dedicated to HOW to communicate and "negotiate" in your M. I plan to PORE over those chapters, and also have H do it, WHEN he's in recovery stage! <P>I think it is a LEARNED behavior, and if we haven't done it, or don't do it, doesn't matter. We can LEARN to do it, if we're willing!<P>I'm convinced there are some things we can't "fix" alone. I plan on counseling, too, when he's back and ready. I don't think we can "change" our past behaviors totally enough without someone showing us. I have a wonderful counselor friend (retired counselor now, but she's been counseling me all summer). When I talk to her, and she asks me questions, or tries to get me to rephrase something the way I would ask it of my H, I find I'm STILL using judgmental tones, critical statements! Even after she points it out to me! This is soooo hard for me. So I KNOW for myself, we'll need a counselor to help us "get there."<P><BR>Lupo<BR>

I'm the BS of Sad_n_lonely. Yes we had marital problems, and we both were unhappy. I still can't see how the affair turned into a physical within minutes of H seeing the OW. I still can't imagine him having sex with her when this is her second affair, the first one was physical also. I see my H after her for lust, and the OW positively after my H for her lust. I feel plus her counselor that she has a mental problem. She might be bi-polar. Also, our counselor and her counselor told the OW that her chances of having another affair after 2 is greatly increased. She did not learn from the first affair and she probably will not learn from the second affair. She has demonstrated to the 2 of us (H and I) that she wants this affair kept a secret from her H and that she has threatened me with suicide if the information was given to her H about the affair.<P>Anyways, my H says that the deep emotions came and he wanted this woman physically. They sent e-mails to each other that were quite graphic sexually. I am reading them now. Why doesn't the WS see that this is getting in deep? Where are their morals to keep this only to their spouse and not a stranger (in sense)? My H said he has asked God for forgiveness. How many times does the OW ask God for forgiveness, and then do it again? I don't understand any of this. I married my H with only him in mind. I have had no sex with anyone beside my H my whole life. Now he has been contaminated with this woman that seeks to have OM in her private life without her H knowing. This bothers me greatly, this woman seems to be mentally impaired and seems to be using people at her will. She evidentally didn't learn the first time, and I gather she will not of learned from this time. <P>When H and the OW met, my H and her went to a H for their sex. H wanted to go to a movie or something, and the OW suggested the Hotel. Talk about being in the fog or whatever, H agreed and said he was ok with no sex, but had no objection to stuff, just no intercourse (they had talked about that boundary). Being in a hotel, secluded from the outside world, he said they talked, and led to undressing each other and sex followed. I think anyone with a low IQ would recognize what was going to happen and that this was actually planned. There was no way they were going to sit next to each other and talk and not grope. <P>I am having a hard time with this PA, and I hope to conquer this dilema in due time. But I only found out about this about 2 weeks ago. So I am raw to the bone and hurting big time. When I read the e-mails this disturbs me greatly.<p>[This message has been edited by thinker (edited August 20, 2001).]

Wayward Spouses and Betrayed Spouses! We all need to be honest with ourselves, here!<P>BS's - we can't just keep thinking of our WS's as these evil people who purposefully went out and sought out to do this unbelievably hurtful deed. Also, it takes two to make unsuccessful communication take place.<P>But, this excuse of "I just felt like I couldn't talk to you" is FAR too often used as a cop-out, in my not to be humbled opinion. Yes, in many cases, BS's were unreceptive to the WS's silent pleas for change, but for the most part, if the WS approached the BS before the affair actually took place and took a genuine interest in reconciling their problems then, the affair would never have happened.<P>So why don't WS's talk to their soon-to-be BS's? Because they don't want to. Yes, yes, they *want* to, but they don't WANT to. You know exactly what I mean. This is why SNL agreed to meet at the hotel, yet set real boundaries, that to his conscious mind, he had every intention of keeping. But deep inside, WS's want that affair. They want it bad enough to even convince themselves that their marriage is unreconcileable. <P>Why am I sure of this? Because I've been there. I've made myself susceptible to an affair, too. I even initiated several friendships that could have turned to PA's. Our marriage had problems. And I reached out to my wife several times and she just wouldn't open up to me. Sometimes she would, but only halfheartedly, enough to get us going for another month or two. But she would never let me talk to her deeply enough to help us get to the root of our problems. She would get angry at me and I learned not to bring up those problems anymore.<P>It was only when I found out that she was actually IN the midst of an affair, that the cold, hard, truth hit me about what was going on and I cut off all contact with the female friends I had made on the internet. <P>Now, things are the same as they ever were. She doesn't want to talk about it. Just wants to pretend we're the world's greatest couple, yet see this guy behind my back. <P>But keeping to the topic... and to answer your question, Thinker...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>They sent e-mails to each other that were quite graphic sexually. I am reading them now. Why doesn't the WS see that this is getting in deep? Where are their morals to keep this only to their spouse and not a stranger (in sense)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Whether or not SNL is willing to admit it... he probably did see that he was getting in too deep. But he either didn't have hopes for his marriage and did it anyway, or did what so many of us Christians do... we use forgiveness as a "cloak of unrighteousness" as Paul the apostle said. I do something stupid, I repent and God forgives. I do something worse, I repent and God forgives... and it goes on. And we live guilt-free, using this "cloak of unrighteousness". But eventually, we are in so deep, that we stop asking forgiveness. We "tune out" God and just go full out. Maybe we convince ourselves that we'll "get right" with God eventually. But we never do.<P>I've been there, too. But like this song I love, that Christian artist <I>Russ Taff</I> sings .... "I've never gone too far, that I've forgotten my way home. The best things always bring me back again."<P>I know my wife didn't LOOK to have her affair. I also know that when she was in the middle of the EA, that she never intended to let it develop into a PA. But it is SO easy to do. And us BSes make it easier by being the trusting, loving spouses we should be. Don't regret being what you are, though. WS's might have gotten into their affairs "by accident" but you can't get out of one the same way. It takes effort. Effort that most aren't willing to give.<P>Sorry this post has been so long - I just had a lot on my mind about this topic. I hope I was able to clearly convey my thoughts to you guys.

"Why didn't you just talk to me when you were so unhappy? Instead of pouring it all out to him, why didn't you just tell me you were unhappy?!!" <P>In my case, I felt like I had been trying to tell my H I was unhappy. I wanted him to "care" enough to try to understand that I wasn't happy. Sigh. A terrible mess of non-communication. What he needed was for me to hit him over the head with my unhappiness. But because of our relationship, and my tendency toward denial, I just couldn't do it. <P>Why couldn't I say, if you don't meet my needs, I will have an affair? Because I didn't know what my needs were, and I couldn't admit that the relationship with OM, which filled some of these needs, was wrong. <P>I don't deny that the A was my fault. I do deny that I ever did it with the intent to hurt my H. I still can't really answer the question of how I could be so stupid.

Godlyman - I finally hear someone that thinks the way I feel. I know my H knew he was getting in deep, he is not stupid. But he didn't care, like you said. He was going to go for a full sex affair and he didn't care about the family or anyone but him and the OW. This is precisely what Jennifer Harley tells us, they are selfish and think only about what the two of them will get out of the affair. What you said about asking for forgiveness from God. How does one have an affair, know what they are doing in adultery and still continue, and say to themselves, I will ask God for forgiveness after I have my fun. The OW being this her second affair and didn't learn from the first affair, what did she do? I will have another affair (she thinks) have fun with this married man, and then ask God for forgiveness again? Is there something wrong with this picture or what? I would like to ask her what is wrong with her and what is wrong with her morales. She professes to be a christian too, and she seems to not beable to keep her panties or bra on. An affair happens with a mind set out to do it. She set her mind to have an affair with my husband. When she told me she didn't know what she was doing, I could of threw up on her. She's already done it once, does it take a brick to throw at her head to wake her up or what. I believe that one affair should maybe be excused with lots of forgiveness and regret. But 2 is not acceptable. My H still loves this woman who has had 2 affairs now, yes I think he is not quite right in his mind. He loves her for all her wrong doings but not his W (me his paper wife). Where does this fit? Maybe if I had an affair I would see, but this does not calculate in my mind. H loves her and not me. H can tell her to this day he still loves her and not me. You know, this hurts bad. I am having a bad day, so I will end.

This is really good. Just wanted to give it a bump.

Thinker, it is easy to be the voice of reason, but not so easy to listen to it. I am not trying to condone what any WS has done, but we have to understand that things that seem logical and reasonable to us, are not as clear to someone who is in the fog of romantic love. And even if it is clear to them, they don't want to know and understand it, so they don't. <P>It's a case of hearing what you want to hear<P>I feel your pain, though. It doesn't make sense. And yes, most people involved in an affair and at extreme risk for more affairs. Sometimes the voice of reason speaks in another language, it seems.