Good morning,<P>I've spent a lot of time reviewing my plan A, and I'm not sure if there is something I'm doing wrong, something I should do differently or maybe there's something new I should do. I have been plan A'ing since November and learned of the A in March. I confronted W about A in April. She has denied it ever since. Here is a brief synopsis of my plan A:<P>1. Angry outbursts & criticism were big problems for me and our marriage. I began seeing a shrink in December and he helped me overcome these LB's. I have completely, and I mean completely, eliminated them from my behavior. Even on d-day, I maintained my composure and never got angry, judgemental or made any demands, and I haven't since. These changes in my behavior have been noticed by many people, including my W. She may have a hard time believing I could do such a 180. She said she's waiting for "the other shoe to fall".<P>2. I have always been the more controlling partner in our marriage, but have given up control since I really don't have any.<P>3. I am an extremely honest person, some would say too honest. However, since I learned of the A, I have not been completely honest with my W about everything I know and how I know it. I've done this because I don't want to tip my hand and give my W the chance to become better at concealing A. My W knows that I know more than I've revealed. This is probably an LB, but an unavoidable one in my opinion. <P>4. I have been pleasant and friendly towards my W at all times, as hard as that may be.<P>5. I have met her EN's regarding financial, domestic and family support. I have always been the kind of husband/father who split these responsibilities 50/50, if not more so. As much as I would like to meet her needs for affection, conversation and attention, she hasn't really given me the chance. Or maybe that's just my perception of it. Maybe I need to find a different way to try to meet those needs. It's hard to meet these needs when your W is sleeping on the couch and talking about divorce.<P>5. I've showered our daughter with love and attention. I always spent alot of time with her, but even more so now. Probably because she's the only one in our house who make's me feel loved. Also, I really think she needs her daddy more than ever. My W has been very irritable towards her.<P>Anyway, I'm am looking for opinions or suggestions. Bring them on.<P>sad dad<P>

sad - I hate to disappoint you, but I can find no fault in your Plan A - based on your description.<P>Are you sure there have been few, if any, LBs?<P>Does your alien have any other complaints? Any NEW complaints?<P>As far as anything new to do is concerned, I can think only of trying new family activities. Maybe your daughter is now old enough to participate in fun things you and your wife did before she was born?<P>In sum, I suggest trying to infuse energy into the relationship in any form you can get it in, without getting pushy. When you're confident that further Plan A efforts are having diminishing returns, seek Steve's advice on what to do. Sooner or later, your lovebank will get low and the LBs will be harder to prevent. That's when Plan B should take over, but you know you can't do this while living together.<P>WAT

First of all your wife is still in the house and you don't have a chance to shower her with affection!? <P>Okay maybe I don't know the whole story...Have you tried flowers and/or a card? I found a card over the weekend that said "With you(on the front) I have everything(on the inside). Naturally, I bought it. How about cooking dinner(it doesn't have to be romantic, just cook to help out)? Ask her out on a date? If she says no, say just as friends, nothing romantic. Talk about maybe an old memory to get a conversation started.<P>I wouldn't recommend trying to talk about the A or the two of you as a couple. Talk about your child and what she did that day...etc.<P>Will she allow you to touch or kiss her. If so don't forget to give her a good morning kiss (when you leave) and agood evening kiss(when you come home). Also you can allow her to catch you checking her out. Be careful these maybe LBs ,too.<BR>I don't really know what point you are at in your marriage. <P>I should tell you that even if she shows no appreciation for your love and affection be persistant as long you are not LBing. Hang in there...

That sounds like the perfect Plan A to me!<BR>Way to go, we all should take after you!

Okay I'm back. I maybe harsh at times but I really want everyones marriage to work out. I'm a strong believer in marriage vows I know the pain and agony that everyone is going though and really don't deserve it. No one does. I have felt that if you tried a million times to work on your marriage and it is still failing you try again. Never give up. I told my H from the start "I'm not giving her what she wants" and "you're stuck with me".<P>ANYWAY to respond again to your post. I just want to say that I have a problem with #3. Okay, maybe you've tapped the phone or something, but she knows you're with holding information? I would reveal this information(it may be LB ,but tell her that you just want to be honest and open with her). This info is driving a wedge between you. However, to protect yourself, how you came across the info ,I would recommend you tell her something whether it is the truth or not (hired a P.I.). <BR>I would also recommend, not snooping anymore(LB) or if you do, don't allow her to know(LB) don't bring it up, don't try to get her to confess to what you've found.It is your own deep dark secret NEVER to be revealled. In time as your marriage begans to recover, these bits of info will become irrelavant or she will reveal them to you, herself. <P>Have you admitted to her about your faults? (too controling etc.)<BR>I think that you have an excellent chance at showing her your affection and other EN since she is still living at home with you. <BR>Have you told her that this situation isn't all her fault that you helped create the enviroment for this to happen and that it isn't all her fault. <P>If she is very irritable , perhaps she is feeling guilty. Maybe you should try to relieve some of that guilt and place it on yourself.<BR>I really hope these ideas work for you, they have for me.<P>KEEP TRYING...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by M&J (edited August 20, 2001).]

wat,<P>Good to hear from you. The only LB's I can think of were regarding some of the snooping I did prior to and shortly after d-day. Also, a few weeks ago, we had another "divorce talk" and I brought up OM in response to a question she asked. In that same conversation I told her that I would fight her on custody. If this was an LB, it was a necessary one.<P>M&J,<P>I usually cook dinner every night for the 3 of us. Have always done this. She seldom eats dinner anymore. She won't let me touch or kiss her, although I haven't tried much either. Shot down quite a few times. I've tried cards, flowers & letters over the last 9 months with little acknowledgement or response. <P>She may be so emotionally detached from me or attached to OM at this point that no plan A efforts will have any affect.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 20, 2001).]

M&J,<P>Good point about revealing some of what I know. It may be driving a wedge between us. There is some old info I could tell her about without jeopardizing my current source of information. She has denied the affair since d-day, and bringing it up and revealing more info may be a big LB, basically calling her a liar (which she is). I have an appointment with Steve this afternoon. I'll run this by him. Maybe honesty has to start with me.<P>Yes, I have acknowledeged and taken responsibility for my past behavior that lead to our estrangement and helped create the conditions that made her A possible. I have made this very clear to her. I don't bring up the A or OM, unless in response to questions from her. <P>WAT's suggestion of doing something as a family is a good one. I think I'll suggest going to the zoo or to a ballgame (my daughter loves baseball) or something. <P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 20, 2001).]

Your situation sounds very similar to mine. I would think that if she is still living with you and doesn't want to leave that she does want to reconcile. <BR>I would "act" like the OM is pretty much out of the picture . I think she is feeling guilty and is becoming depressed. Don't forget this whole situation is very hard on all of those involved emotionally. <BR>Maybe try some self-esteem boost for her. <BR>If the info that you is old (over a month old) it maybe best not to reveal it, just forget about it. If it indicates a definate "YES YOU ARE A LIAR" perhaps avoid it . Ask Steve. <P>I assume you've talked to her about MB. Have you said anything about her going though withdrawal and that it is like being depressed? I told my WH that and he could relate to it.<P>She maybe in withdrawal. According to some readings on this site you may not get any responses to your plan A while she is in withdrawal. Talk to Steve about how to deal with the withdrawal. You definatly don't want to drive her back to the OM if she has gotten to this point. <BR>Hang in There!!!

sounds pretty good to me too actually. You are doing yours stuff, giving her space, and most importantly have changed and are sustaining the changes, she is watching, and she is still there, that is significant. Don't worry much about the couch, I slept on the "couch" for 5 years. I don't think she will take that long, but if she does, is her choice, leave her be. I stayed there that long cause wife would not change, and until she did, and I could see it might be permanent. D came 5 months ago, and sleeping on the couch was just one of the many LB she harangued me with (all under the category of I should treat her like a wife, but that is another story). If you want a kinda suggestion, offer to your wife she might be more comfortable in the bed and you are willing to trade off with her. MWF she gets bed, t th,s,s you get bed, it brings up the bed issue, without being a LB. WS (and other estranged people) also get into a kind of inertia, and if your sensitivity is on, and timing is good, you can be construtively assertive. Do you have any SF? If not, don't ever seduce her, let her initiate (or at least clearly indicate whe might be receptive to seduction, and if you do........take a looooooooooong time inthe preliminaries). When the time seems right and she might indicate she could sleep with you one night or something, make it clear that would be fine, and you will stay on your 1/2 the bed and so forth. The point being no pressure of any kind.<P>As for m&j disagreeing with number 3. I don't agree with that. It seems a common confusion re snooping and LB, it is not a LB, what you do with it can be. Snooping is about survival YOURS and is the counterbalance to our (ws) secrecy. We know, and fully expect you to snoop, we would do the same, every human being would. It is when you use it against us, or in some manipulative way we go ballistic. True some ws will get angry when they "see" you snooping, that is a risk, so be discreet, but the snooping itself, and keeping info to yourself is fine. If possible communicating indirectly that you know stuff, but will not use it against them is actually a Love deposit, it means you are willing to trust them, not their activity (we know you won't accept, and should not accept) that, but you trust us to choose you when and if we are ready. Your defense against us not playing fair is plan a....NOT confrontations with snooping stuff. In fact not telling us what you know is best, my wife knew stuff, she sorta let me know, but would not tell me, it acts a bit as a reality check, and actually (IMO) has the effect of slowing down and ending the A as well. This is the ONLY acceptable way to apply guilt to a ws. Ya get it?<P>I am gonna have to quit giving away all the ws secrets I guess. Feel like I am being a ratfink....ok just a j/k but I may write a book someday about being the ws, it is so clear that despite the harleys expertise, there are things about being a ws that one just cannot understand until you have been there, and these things are crucial to the bs in understanding what the heck is happening in their life. But then again I am in a fog, so be careful about what I say I guess. Good luck sad, from what you say it sounds promising. I can only tell you my wife got absolutely nowhere for 4 months until she started a for real and sustained plan a. I was pretty much ready to go, and had there not been so much stuff to do (we run a business together, still have teenagers, mucho other stuff), I probably would have, she was driving me nuts with all her pathos and gnashing of teeth, and aggression, and ....well let's just say giving up control was very very hard for her.<P>

Sad and Lonely...<BR>Thanks for posting for SAD DAD...<BR>I don't want to give the wrong ideas and end up totally screwing something up...<BR>I agree with a lot of stuff that you have stated. Also disagree with some of course. <BR>But you have also opened my eyes to a WS side of this situation that I never seen. <BR>KEEP POSTING...

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

thanks again snl

M&J and SNL,<P>Thanks for you replies and interest.<P>I have NOT talked to her about MB. I doubt she would be receptive to it at this point and it may seem coersive or manipulative, which in reality it is. <P>I can "act" like OM is out of the picture, but I know he's not. I got my most recent bit of info 3 weeks ago (from hearing a voice mail he left her) and at that time he was still very much involved. They have just become more careful.<P>I don't think I will give my W any additional info. It will serve no purpose, except maybe to initiate some honesty, but being honest this far after discovery may be moot. I've have told her I know more than I've let on. She asked me what else I knew, and I said I'll tell you when it doesn't matter anymore (that could be after we D or after we reconcile, I didn't really mean it one way or another).<P>I may suggest alternating nights or weeks on the couch. It might be a small gesture of extending an olive branch.<P>SNL, I may not agree with, or quite frankly, understand much of what you have to say (I suspect you hear that alot), but you offer a much needed perspective and I appreciate your efforts to educate us BS's. It was encouraging to know that you thought I have been handling plan A pretty well.<P>sad dad<P> <P>

I just got off the phone with Steve Harley. I updated him on the latest, told him of my plan A efforts and that I really have no options but to continue plan A.<P>He didn't have much advice except to stay focused and keep doing what I'm doing. He said continue to focus my attention on my daughter. He said plan A may be working since my W hasn't filed for D yet and is obviously conflicted, which is good. He reminded me that this is a marathon, not a sprint. Try to wear the OM out. The longer she puts off D, the more impatient OM will get and he'll start to LB. As wonderful as my W is and as attractive as she is, he won't wait forever and may begin to stick out his ugly head. Since I have no options, I can't choose the wrong one. Kind of ironic. All I can do is wait and plan A.<P>Steve concurs that my W's resistance to believe my changes are real and permanent is because once she admits they are, there goes her justification for the A. <P>Steve thought snl's suggestion of alternating nights on the couch was a good one. It allows me to bring up the subject, without questioning her reason for doing it. He also agreed with WAT's suggestion to try to do something as a family. If my W balks, do something with my daughter anyway. He said my W will notice the time I spend with her and the connection we share, and it will add to her confliction. Seems like solid advice. Hopefully I'll have some progress to report (one way or another) when I talk to him in a few weeks.<P>sad dad

wow! thanks for telling us what Steve said.<P>Stay the course.

I've spent the last few days going over the reponses to this thread and reassessing my plan A. Thanks to all who replied. Overall, I happy with my plan A, but I think I need to step it up a bit. I feel I may be sitting back waiting for the A to fizzle out, hoping the OM gets impatient and starts to LB. That may happen and my W may begin to see OM and the A for what it is, but what am I doing to draw her back to me? How can I make myself the more attractive option? Maybe I need to find some non-physical ways to show my love and appreciation for her. Not flowers or cards or notes. Something else. I'm open to any suggestions. Maybe I'm putting too much pressure on myself. Maybe I'm doing all I can at this point. Maybe this is just my "controlling" nature getting the best of me. Sitting back and letting this unfold may be the best thing to do. Who know's?<P>Anyway, I took snl's suggestion and offered to alternate sleeping on the couch. My W took me up on the offer. I am going to ask her tonight if she wants to join our daughter and me at the zoo tomorrow. Hopefully she will, but I'm keeping my expectations low.<P>sad dad<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 24, 2001).]