snl,<P>I wanted to post directly to you with some questions/comments regarding my thread from yesterday.<P>1. You asked "do you have any SF?" No. We have not been intimate since November, really no affection whatsoever. Contact with OM started around this time, possibly earlier.<P>2. You said "we (WS's) know, and fully expect you to snoop, we would do the same, every human being would. It is when you use it against us, or in some manipulative way we go ballistic". I LB'ed big time in this regard. A few weeks ago during one of our "divorce talks", I told my W that I love my daughter and would fight her on custody. She replied "..if you do, I'll sue you because of the tape recorder" (if you remember from an earlier post, I recorded her phone conversations). I responded "..do what you need to do. Maybe I'll file for D on the grounds of infidelity". She replied "..what you heard on those tapes in inadmissible". I responded "..I know alot more than what I heard on those tapes". It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part due to her threat, but a big LB nonetheless. However, I do think that this, and the knowledge that I will fight her on custody, gave her a dose of reality. Afterwards, she said she won't put our daughter through a custody battle and we could just go on living as we are. <P>I have no intention of filing for D, nor do I intend to use anything I know to hurt or humiliate my W. I just got caught up in the heat of the moment. Do you think I should let her know this, or just let it go? I wasn't trying to become advisarial. <BR> <BR>I talked to Steve Harley yesterday and told him of your suggestion to alternate sleeping on the couch. He thought it was a good idea. Coincidently, my W had a stiff neck when she came home from work, probably from sleeping on the couch. It gave me the perfect opportunity to follow through with your suggestion. She was receptive and we're going to do it. Maybe a small sign of an olive branch being extended on my part.<P>If you have a chance, please read the last post I made on yesterday's thread. It summarizes my appointment with Steve.<P>Thanks,<BR>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 21, 2001).]

Thx sad for the update, I feel so good my idea had usefullness, meets my admiration need I guess (I think I am falling in love with you). Actually talked some with Jennifer (coincidently) yesterday about this kind of stuff, how EN can be met quite successfully on-line...especially conversation, emotional honesty, and admiration. My w is experiencing some anxiety over my posting here, afraid I will meet ow. But because she was able to express it, I was able to reassure her, and remind her she is free to check on my activities (here or elsewhere) anytime she wants, in any way she wants. But I digress. <P>She and I have a long way hard way to go, with no gaurantees whatsoever, but the point is you cannot effectively try reconcilliation without certain things, and one is good faith (no contact, no control, no LB, and rules of protection). It took a while for my w to get to this point with me (but had a bad day yesterday with LB). I am (as the ws) patient to a point, but I tell her there are limits, and I act on it. In the past I would avoid it (and her), now I express it. I am past the hurtful angry response stage, but yesterday (which was relatively mild), I felt the anger returning, the rage that makes me push her away violently, she wouldn't let up. She thought she was just being firm, telling me her feelings, but what she was doing was trying to conrol and manipulate me again (with criticism, selfish demnands AND disrespectful judgements), I will never let that happen again. Anyways just before I either lost it, or "ordered" her from my presence, I decided to try something else. So I hugged her (an uncommon response for me), told her I know she is hurting, and scared. She started crying alot (something she hates to do), and somehow things got back on track, and we talked some more ok. She doesn't want to be controlling/etc. but it is very hard to give up, when that is how you have coped your entire life. I hear too many of the bs not letting go, no matter how you disguise it, when you act in a manner that is about "making" your spouse react (or specific expectations), you trigger why many of us want to leave. We know this is hard to do, that is why we don't give much credence to short term changes...they have to be long term, sustained, and most importantly not dropped when you are stressed.<P>re your "divorce" talk....I have mixed feelings, but I for sure don't think you handled it as well as you could. It was confrontational, and that works against making yourself irresitable. You did win the "battle", but are closer to losing the war.<P>sad...I LB'ed big time in this regard. A few weeks ago during one of our "divorce talks", I told my W that I love my daughter and would fight her on custody. <P>snl...Why not just tell her you are afraid of losing daughter. Your phrasing was controlling, you leave and I will try to take daughter away from you...you stay and....<P>sad...She replied "..if you do, I'll sue you because of the tape recorder" (if you remember from an earlier post, I recorded her phone conversations). <P>snl...She defended herself from you...Do you really want her seeing you as the enemy?<P>sad...I responded "..do what you need to do. Maybe I'll file for D on the grounds of infidelity". She replied "..what you heard on those tapes in inadmissible". I responded "..I know alot more than what I heard on those tapes". It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part due to her threat, but a big LB nonetheless. <P>snl..I know you now regret this converstion, I am just agreeing with that assessment <P>sad...However, I do think that this, and the knowledge that I will fight her on custody, gave her a dose of reality.<P>snl...I agree. But now I would suggest you write a note expressing serious regret over how you handled it, and acknowledging you were angry and controlling, and don't want to be that way. Maybe adding that joint custody is the most desireable, and that you won't ever use your child to manipulate her (or do anything else gratuitiously humiliating), even if she "dumps" you...but don't say it if you don't mean it.<P>sad...Afterwards, she said she won't put our daughter through a custody battle and we could just go on living as we are.<P>snl...Exactly the wrong result. You got her cooperation, but it was coerced. I do think there is legitimate strategy in some coercion, to keep ws from literally walking out the door, but it is very tricky, and has to be done as non-confrontationally as possible, and probably a good idea to get lots of input from others as a reality check. The only good thing though, is you bought some more time, use it wisely sad.<P>re the couch/bed thing. I am a problem solver by profession, and I take to this MB stuff like a fish to water. There is a lot of stuff bs can do it they get creative, and forget about themselves and instead try to think of innovative ways to let the ws see them in a different light. The bed thing fairly shouted out at me. Sure you are the bs, have a right to the bed, and she left it blah blah blah....but that doesn't change anything, she is still suffering, your desire (now expressed) that you are concerned about her, in a way that is not about you (cause now you are gonna suffer some too) is worth more than a million I love you's, I can't live without you"s etc. ... at least IMHO. You have just told her, everything does not have to be your way.....and MORE importantly, even if you are right, it still doesn't have to be your way. Glad it worked out.<P> <BR>

snl,<P>Thanks for your response. Points well taken. I just want to clarify a couple of things.<P>My W asked me if I was going to fight her on custody. I don't know why. I never suggested it. But, I answered her honestly. I know that joint custody is the best for everyone, and in Ilinois the courts almost always rule that way except in extreme cases. My W and I are both terrific parents. However, our daughter is in daycare, and due to our schedule's, I spend more time with her. If I truly believed in my heart my daughter would be better off living with my W, this would be a non-issue, but I don't. I also don't believe it's in a child's best interest to spend 4 nights at mommy's and 3 nights at daddy's. I child needs a place to call home. I prefer that place be with me. I don't want to be a weekend dad. The best thing for our daughter is if my W and I can find a way to keep her family together.<P>As far as my W's concern about putting our daughter through a custody battle, I don't really understand it. Our daughter is only three, she won't even be involved. D will have much more of a long term affect on her than a custody battle. I think my W is a little scared that she could lose her daughter, as miniscule as that chance may be. She assumed this would never be an issue and was caught off guard. <P>I had considered sending my W a note regarding the way I handled that discussion before you suggested it. Maybe something like this:<P>"Things got a little out of hand when we talked a few weeks ago. I said some things I regret. I have no intention of filing for divorce, not do I intend to use anything I know to hurt you or humiliate you. You've been hurt enough already. I felt threatened and reacted poorly. I'm sorry. I know joint custody would be the best thing for <D>, but I love her dearly and I don't want to be a part-time dad."<P>I may leave off tha last sentence because I really don't want to revisit the custody issue. Let a sleeping dog lie.<BR> <BR>Also, I don't want my W to stay with me because of coersion, guilt, fear, etc. I want her to stay because she feels our marriage has a chance. I know I didn't handle the situation well, but I'm human. This was the only time since d-day in April that I lost my composure. Some good may come out of it. A little reality sunk in and maybe she'll see me as a strong, loving father that won't just roll over when it comes to his child. <P>Thanks for the suggestion about sleeping on the couch. Since we're not sleeping together, it really doesn't matter who sleeps on the couch, does it? <P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 21, 2001).]

just bumpin' up for ya snl

snl,<P>I have another comment to your response yesterday. My desire to fight my W on custody (really to have my daughter live with me) was not an attempt to coerce her. I never anticipated she would react the way she did about a possible custody battle. I assumed she would say "you'll never win" or "you don't have a chance", something like that. I could never have imagined she would back off on the D issue. I really don't understand her reasoning behind it. <BR>Maybe she's affraid if we go to court over custody, some of her activiities of the last 9 months will be exposed. Shouldn't matter in custody issues, but I guess it depends on the judge. It may have worked in my favor (re: buying me some time), but I never expected it and was really surprised by her reaction.<P>On another note, in a recent thread of mine someone asked me if I introduced my W to MB or this site. I haven't. Although I agree wholeheartedly with the principles, some of it is manipulation. Also, I have posted some things that I wouldn't want my W to see, at least not at this point. I was wondering how you and/or your W came across MB. Did she introduce it to you or vice versa? Did you find it on your own? During situations like this, some people seek out help and support, such as myself. Others, like my W, don't.<BR>I wonder why that is?<P>sad dad <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 22, 2001).]

snl - where are you???