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#940930 08/23/01 02:46 PM
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chaz,<P>If you are truly listening, I have found some answers for myself that could help you too.<P>Imagine if the shoe were on the foot. After you have given all of you as you put it (very well), you found that your spouse had been cheating on you for almost two years, living a double life. After you gave all of yourself to her and the kids! And told you the main reason was that you were too weak, no fun, she was not in-love with you.<P>This was where I was when I started posting here in Nov. '99. I couldn't believe his cruelty: I had given and given and he had been living a lie.<P>I discovered that in always giving him what he wanted, I WAS NOT MEETING HIS REAL NEEDS. I learned that I had done my part in creating the vaccuum in our marriage.<P>I learned a big lesson from Dr. Phil McGraw - a real hard one to swallow and I'll pass it on to you. One of his "laws" is that we teach others how to treat us! I taught my h to treat me this way. I had betrayed myself far more than he had.<P>Think about it. It has made a world of difference to me. Today we work on POJA and I have learned and I mean it has to be LEARNED to stand up for myself.<P>I remember you posting before about childhood abuse. We were TRAINED by this to please others at all costs. We must retrain ourselves.<P>I've worked on this first for myself, secondly for my marriage. When it came right down to it, no one could help me to stand up for myself, I had to do it. I had to give myself the love and respect I needed first!

#940931 08/23/01 03:06 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B>chaz,<P>If you are truly listening, I have found some answers for myself that could help you too.<P>Imagine if the shoe were on the foot. After you have given all of you as you put it (very well), you found that your spouse had been cheating on you for almost two years, living a double life. After you gave all of yourself to her and the kids! And told you the main reason was that you were too weak, no fun, she was not in-love with you.</B><P>imagine if who she was cheating with were your kids, thats how it felt, that i had given so completly and she had no feelings of desire or admiration an the reasons were the same!<P>I hear what your saying.<P><B>This was where I was when I started posting here in Nov. '99. I couldn't believe his cruelty: I had given and given and he had been living a lie.<P>I discovered that in always giving him what he wanted, I WAS NOT MEETING HIS REAL NEEDS. I learned that I had done my part in creating the vaccuum in our marriage.</B><P>same here, she wanted me to stand my ground be a man! sigh. <BR>i did it all wrong the entire time [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] funny she never mentioned it.<P><B>I learned a big lesson from Dr. Phil McGraw - a real hard one to swallow and I'll pass it on to you. One of his "laws" is that we teach others how to treat us! I taught my h to treat me this way. I had betrayed myself far more than he had.</B><P>its one thing to have mistreated yourself, it is quite another for someone to capitalize on that and abuse. where is the line? yea the needs may not have been met, but when your in control, you have power, and can satisfy oneself in many ways, when your not, what are your options?<P><B>Think about it. It has made a world of difference to me. Today we work on POJA and I have learned and I mean it has to be LEARNED to stand up for myself.</B><P>standing up for oneself is it, that is the piece that was missing, its the piece i am learning, it is supposedly the piece she has desired me to have. so in having it i am trying ever so hard to be patient and allow her to be loving and giving, attentive all the things i desire her to be, it remains to be seen whether she shall be.<P><B>I remember you posting before about childhood abuse. We were TRAINED by this to please others at all costs. We must retrain ourselves.<P>I've worked on this first for myself, secondly for my marriage. When it came right down to it, no one could help me to stand up for myself, I had to do it. I had to give myself the love and respect I needed first!</B><P>YES!! <P>now the questions are:<P>What does it mean to be married?<BR>What are reasonable expectations? <BR>Should i have to live my life being contstantly rejected, and feeling alone?<P>i guess that not what i envisioned marriage to be.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

#940932 08/23/01 03:36 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B><BR>One of his "laws" is that we teach others how to treat us! I taught my h to treat me this way. I had betrayed myself far more than he had.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Two questions:<P>If we "teach others" how to treat us, it would stand to reason that if we teach them to be good to us, they would be, right? We all know that this doesn't always happen, so how does one account for that?<P>If we "teach others" how to treat us, is that not manipulation in it's highest form?<P>Just a curious seeker tonight...<BR>

#940933 08/23/01 03:58 PM
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Hey Chaz,<P>Your posts speaks volumes to my heart. My H and I also got into this cycle that you describe right before his affair. I think for many women in crisis we speak louder, take control, beg for action, and demand attention. I thought just before the affair if I could convey how hurt, angry and upset I was about being alone, he would willingly step up to the plate to help our marriage. But he didn't. He was far to weak at that point and our home was not a place of peace. <P>Peace and friendship was what the OW was offering. But I truly didn't know how to be a friend when chaos was running amuck in my home. Any energy and lightheartedness was depleted by the time he arrived at home. I was so depleated by the time the affair began, all I could say was that I loved him truly but I could not continue to live my life w/him in this manner. I said I didn't want a divorce but I saw few options for my happiness if this was the type of life he wanted to live. He claimed he didn't want to live his life like this, only a few more weeks of continuos work he said. But I had heard that phrase repeatedly throughout our marriage. See he was always strong and available for anyone but me.<P>So I screamed far too loud for him to ever hear my pain. So he sought to help a coworker who's marriage was going down the drain. He felt strong for her. He was able to help her pain. He believed she was a strong, independent woman who could live her life w/strength. Then what was she doing w/my husband and not fighting for her own marriage? Being weak. So while they were weak they gained strength from each other. <P>What have I learned? To stop trying to get my husband's attention. I am willing to meet each and every need he has. He just has to be available. We finally have reached a place of equilibrium. That's what I call it. Where we both are seeking each other. The scales are balanced. I have learned to strengthen myself by retreating much more than I used to. I was always way too available. He could have me at anytime. Now, I live my own life, and if he wants interaction w/me, he'd better come and get it. Not to sound like were both selfish. But before the A, I felt I had to be available for him 24/7 or we'd never catch a moment together. I've learned to give him that responsiblity. And it works.<P>Right now your wife is in a period of withdrawl. She feels beaten into the corner. She doesn't trust you to reach this place of equilibrium in your relationship. She doesn't know you can be strong, and she doesn't have any strength to give. By your actions you have told her you despise her strength. Just be consistent. So many of the posts on this thread offer valid advice. Let her see you can be trusted as a strong, capable man. The last thing she wants is to come out of withdrawl and for your strength to vaporize.<P>My prayers are with you. I get a sense from your posts that you are fighting so hard. You are to be commended for that. Don't give up fighting. Only you know Chaz how long you can continue. At least give the fight two years. <P>Take care,<P>Shaz

#940934 08/23/01 04:25 PM
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Hi Chaz,<BR>I always look like I'm on at a weird time because of the time change..Hawaiian time is like no other!<BR>This is a pretty good thread, and is actually mirroring SnL's current thread.<P>Nyneve, you're points about teaching are good, but like everything else...just cause someone's taught, doesn't mean they're gonna do.<BR>And, there is a difference between teaching and revealing information...stands to reason that any manipulation would come in the form of promises or threats after info is given.<BR>T<BR>

#940935 08/23/01 04:26 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shazam:<BR><B> I felt I had to be available for him 24/7 or we'd never catch a moment together. </B><P>OMG, this has been one of the more recent revelations in my life, i was choosing to not do anything for myself in order to be availible at any moment so that i could get some kind of attention. well that dosnt work for her, and obviously wasnt working for me. NEXT PLAN!<P><B>Right now your wife is in a period of withdrawl. She feels beaten into the corner. She doesn't trust you to reach this place of equilibrium in your relationship. She doesn't know you can be strong, and she doesn't have any strength to give. By your actions you have told her you despise her strength. Just be consistent. So many of the posts on this thread offer valid advice. Let her see you can be trusted as a strong, capable man. The last thing she wants is to come out of withdrawl and for your strength to vaporize.</B><P>With every ounce of my being!<P><B>My prayers are with you. I get a sense from your posts that you are fighting so hard. You are to be commended for that. Don't give up fighting. Only you know Chaz how long you can continue. At least give the fight two years. </B><P>feels as though the fight has already been going for 12, only ive been not getting the complete tar knocked out of me for the last one. well see how long i can sustain this come back! i hope for a long time. she does play an important role though.<P>thank you for your thoughts shaz<P><BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

#940936 08/23/01 04:38 PM
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RE: Dr. Phil and you teach people how to treat you what that means is when you put up with abusive/bad behavour you are sending the message that it's okay for them to treat you that way and that you shouldn't be surprised when they continue to do so. The example in the book he uses is a woman who continually goes back to man who has abused her physically. She must take some responsibility for her continued abuse because she makes the choice to return to him.

#940937 08/23/01 04:41 PM
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Okay Kalgirl, help me understand...<P>If the woman "taught" him to abuse her... is it reasonable to say that had she not "taught" him in the first place, he would not have done it???

#940938 08/23/01 04:56 PM
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LOL Buy the book! "Life Strategies". I don't have the book with me so I am doing this from memory. There is a whole chapter on this subject with much better explanation them I am giving.<P>But to answer your questionNo I don't think she could have taught him not to do it but she could have taught him that she would not put up with it. For me it's just a different take on the idea that you can't control or change someone you can only change/control your reaction to them. Setting boundaries is another way of looking at it.

#940939 08/23/01 04:59 PM
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Actually Kalgirl, I have the workbook, but never bought the book. Can you believe that? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] It gives assignments based on chapters, so when it says, read ch. 5 and then answer, I can't. Guess I need to buy the darned thing, eh?<P>Thanks for your reply.

#940940 08/23/01 05:27 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>Actually Kalgirl, I have the workbook, but never bought the book. Can you believe that? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] It gives assignments based on chapters, so when it says, read ch. 5 and then answer, I can't. Guess I need to buy the darned thing, eh?<P>Thanks for your reply.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>hey N, look around under that rock, i think i left my copy of the book there [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <BR><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

#940941 08/23/01 05:35 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B> <BR>hey N, look around under that rock, i think i left my copy of the book there [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Pretty dark under here... but, w-what the... hey! I found my glasses!!! <P>I really do need to buy that book. The more I hear about it, the more I think I need it. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>

#940942 08/23/01 08:26 PM
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Hi Chaz, <P>I left before the affair started, I left because it was getting so bad, I couldn’t take in anymore. Yeah, I felt dead inside. For a few years prior to my separation, I felt that my function in the marriage was as a provider and caretaker of the family. I would consider my W strong and she needed to be in control all the time. There were no intimacy between us, and if there was it would seem forced. The state of our marriage pushed me to leave, I went thousands of miles away on a job promotion and transfer, which I intentionally applied for. <P>What I should have done, instead of running away, was to confront my W. But you know what, I was weak too. And i was a coward. Thats my mistake. Quoting you “Too weak to stand up for myself in my own marriage, Too weak to scream loudly enough that i was dying inside”. Too weak to admit failure, defeat and rejection. I thought she didn’t love me either. I too felt that W thought of me as the inconvenience that came with the pay check! Real heart to heart communication never existed in my marriage. Only now, since Dday have we started to communicate. But for my marriage it’s a little too late.<P>Good luck to you!

#940943 08/23/01 10:46 PM
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Gosh Chaz,<BR>Your post broke mine and my husband's hearts when we read it together tonight. Consider yourself prayed for & hugged.<P>What came to my mind tho as I thought about your situation was that you have to stop seeing yourself as weak and dead inside where your marriage is concerned. A man is only going to perform to the extent that he sees himself within. Get a better faith picture of yourself, in other words--does that make sense??<P>See yourself as God sees you. God sees you as valuable and precious and He laid down His life for you when you were thoughtless and immoral (for me too, & for everybody)... So that means we are worth something to God--not because of what we do, but because of what HE did for us already.<P>God created man to have dominion. The problem is when men abdicate their responsibilities (to spiritually lead and guide their families), women seek independence. You said that you basically laid down and let your wife take over, and to the point where you had no voice, no control, no coffee in the morning???????? UGH! (then again, coffee is not .65 anymore--it's up to like, 4 bucks!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] ) kidding!<P>You gotta get your authority back because it is your God-given position--not because you are better than the woman God gave you, but because God has an order of things. Respect and authority comes from the way a man carries himself, not by him announcing all his great leadership qualities. How you carry yourself is based on how you talk to and see yourself. You've got to pick yourself up before you can carry yourself in such a way. If you can't do it, let God do it because He is our glory and the lifter of our heads...<P>Think about when Eve persuaded Adam to sin... God called Adam and held HIM accountable. That's when the blame game first started, but that is beside the point. YOU are more than what you think but you have to start seeing it. Whatever was in that rib that God removed from Adam when He created Eve, gave women the ability to adapt to men. We are great adapters and responders. If you (men) desire a more tender response from us, then give us something tender to respond to!! <P>The fact that you have taken steps to rebuild your marriage, by studying and reading and researching and counseling is FANTASTIC! We have to change in order to grow. We must. There is no getting around it. Either we change or we stifle ourselves and our relationships. As long as we are here on this earth, we have lessons to learn about life, about ourselves... Good thing that God gives us opportunities to keep taking the tests until we pass all of them.<P>Keep the faith and we want you to know that we prayed for you after reading your story. Our heartfelt good wishes are with you and your family for God to hold it together when you feel as if you're falling apart. Hang on! Don't give up on yourself! <3<3<3

#940944 08/24/01 02:25 AM
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chaz, this seems to be a thread that has brought out a lot of questions and thoughts. Thank you for giving me this insight.<P>I thought about the control thing again and came to a different conclusion this time. We have discussed what were the problems in our case before A and the answer I get is "our conflicts". My P is a conflict avoider and I am more of "shout and get it over with", but the thing is in our case no one did "win" or take control - THAT was the problem. We just shuffled everything under the carpet and didn't deal with the issues. The issues were the most common ones: finances, sex and household things. Classic and you can read about in every book! BUT still I know I want to be in control, I am used to this from childhood where a lot of responsibility where put on me early. I have this subconscious idea that the world will fall apart if I don't take control. But in our case no-one gave in, we stood head to head and wouldn't give in an inch... This is sometimes referred to as the "marriage dance"... I sure prefer to dance something totally different. <P>Since I am not even capable of setting my own diagnosis right I might very well be disqualified from giving advice but I will anyway... Take it or don't. <P>First of all, read the book Getting the love you want, Harville Hendrix.<P>Secondly, ask your friends, co-workers, or relatives what they really think of you. What type of person are you? Then ask yourself what are my strengths and weaknesses. What can I improve and what can I emphasize? I am so sure you will come up with very many positive traits and once you sort of see the weaknesses from a perspective you might decide you want to work on them, or accept yourself the way you are. <P>Good luck!<BR>-she-<BR>

#940945 08/24/01 03:04 PM
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chaz,<P>Sorry I didn't make it back sooner.<P>Sounds like you are getting it. Making myself available 24/7 was part of it. I was giving him the message that my time was not valuable. He would not need to make an effort to spend time with me; I would always be ready to take the scraps that fell from his table...He would even get on his cell phone during the very rare date we would go on.<P>I had to retrain him. I would take my phone too and have a plan B should he decide to be rude to me. Go in separate cares if necessary. I got my point across!<P>Nyneve, I wasn't specifically talking about abusers; my h has never abused me. But if you want to take the point there - they are often the biggest cowards around. If you won't put up with it, they'll find someone else to pick on.<P>In my life, I'm talking more about everyday rudeness and the lovebuster he used to be so good at - disrespectful judgments. These days I EXPECT to be respected. Since I no longer live in fear of "the look" of disapproval, I also handle having my mistakes pointed out to me a lot better. I don't get defensive.<P>All the way around, things are sooo different at home. Case in point, this morning I burned his toast (mine too). He came in and laughed - you burned the toast? And hugged me from behind. The house has also been a mess since we just came back and the kids are home - and he was ok with it last night. He used to become very distant.<P>We teach others how to treat us subtly in all our encounters. If we say with our body language that we are not worth much respect, we usually won't get it.<P>I don't think it's manipulation at all.

#940946 08/25/01 07:48 AM
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up in case chaz and nyneve didn't see my reply...

#940947 08/25/01 08:20 AM
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Thanks for pulling this up, schizzo... yes, I had missed it.<P>I can't do a lengthy reply this morning (gonna be gone all weekend) but just stopped by for a quickie check-in. <P>I would love to discuss this with you further, however. I have been having a huge issue with abuse/boundaries/stepping away/loving -- and I wonder if that all goes together in a way you can understand, because my head gets all jumbled up with emotions (too often, I'm afraid).<P>Just last night I had a "David-moment" where I ended up in tears, he feels superior, I feel like crap -- AND WE'RE DIVORCED and it was OVER THE PHONE... see what he does to me still??? Drives me batty!!<P>Yeah, maybe I'd better crawl under that rock Chaz suggested and pick that book up. <P>I have the Life Strategies workbook, and even without the text it's excellent. Heck, I have every self help book imaginable... yet, I struggle with this issue.<P>I'll be back (in my best Arnold voice)<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>

#940948 08/25/01 11:20 PM
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Dearest Schizzo:<P>I understand exactly what you're saying...CRYSTAL CLEAR.<P>I can relate to every single thing that you've said. Except, in my own situation, I do believe that I was verbally abused in my marriage. WOW! It's hard to admit that...<P>...but I've read so many self-help books, so many inspirational type books, so many marriage books, so many personality-type books-- to realize that my H did have all the characteristics/traits of a "verbal abuser."<P>And, I know I've said this before, BUT FOR ME, HIS AFFAIR WAS THE VERY LAST STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK.<P>I do agree that I allowed my H to treat me like he did. I allowed him to continue with the abuse...because I didn't speak up for myself. Furthermore, I allowed him to make me second to work, sports, the kids, the neighbors, etc. I honestly thought that the more I allowed him to be *free* and do what he wanted to do, the more he'd love me...the more he'd see me as the "perfect" wife.<P>And for a long, long time I was content to be sixth, or seventh, on his list of "important people"...But, BY GOLLY, I was not willing to be second on his [censored] list.<P>I AM WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR! <P>Sometimes, I can see where my H's affair was good for me. IT WOKE ME UP...it brought me back to life. It set a fire under my [censored] that's still burning today...<P>...no one, but no one, will ever take advantage of me again.<P>I have risen from the ashes. I have claimed my LIFE BACK.<P>I am alive for the first time in many, many years...<P>...and I'm not taking any [censored], anymore. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>And, believe it or not, as strange and heartless as my post may have sounded, this has all been sound and good for my marriage.<P>Peace to us all, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20

#940949 08/25/01 11:50 PM
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Marie,<P>You took the words right out of my mouth. I too thought I was doing the right thing letting him have what he wanted, until I ended up on the bottom of the list.<P>You don't sound cold-hearted. This new attitude has been healthy for me and my marriage as well!

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