Update:<BR>Big developments happened all of a sudden! Tuesday My Counselor suggested she & I work on me instead of issues I have with W & determine how much I am willing to take & to establish some limits – I need to define why I stay in this relationship. Wednesday I meet with Pastor & express Divorce as a possibility. Today I have lunch with W & she asks me about these meeting I & tell calmly tell her. I also mention about my posting here. I told her my Pastor asked if I post here in an attempt to get information to “Control” my W & I repeated to my W what I told our P that I want to be sure I am being fair! I told my W that most people understand my point of view & that it was perhaps best summarized with comment that if she is given the choice of sexy dress or our marriage she will choose sexy dress.<P>In calm fashion, I explained to her that I have tried very hard to explain my frustrations & my needs. I thought my Counselor was getting concerned with protecting me emotionally. I explained to my W that I thought I have been clear about my needs & that I have a big need for assurances & that when I get little or no affection at home & then see her be affectionate with others, it bothers me a lot. I told her that I do not believe she is caring on right now, but that I feel extremely uncomfortable with the way she dresses & acts & that guys are going to hit up on her & that I think it can be toned down to at least reduce those temptations. But that she is in this self actualization, get in touch with her real self mode & that if fine, I can’t change her, I just can’t take it any more. <P>I also said that I have tried to put in place certain protection things (like the calling card thing & having her call me during the day & the dress thing – the bikini to public pool put it over the edge for me!) and that she fights me on virtually every step, like her independence was the most important thing as if she wants to establish this in order to leave the door open for future for the potential of a repeat of A events.<P>I said that her boss told me soon after D/Day that she had counseled her about her wanting to leave me (which my W knew I knew) and that her boss told me then that I cannot make her love me & I have come to realize how true that was. I said we have to be realistic. That we can’t afford counseling for her, me & couples counseling and that she does not want to get involved in studying MB, (like I don’t see her really wanting to work on Marriage).<P>I asked her if her & her counselor have discussed splitting up & she said that they have. She said she did not know how she felt – she was tearful & excused herself to restroom. I went to restroom & when I came out I waited a while then had waitress check restroom & she was gone.<P>May be divorce court ?<P>I feel really sad. After 30 + years, it is difficult to come to grips with this!<BR>HH<BR>

(((HH))) I'm so sorry. I cannot imagine what that felt like. You sounded like you expressed yourself beautifully, without love busting. Your W must have felt some guilt or why run away? I just don't know what to say except I am so, so sorry. I will say a prayer for God to give you strength and peace even during this most difficult time.<P>MOM

AFter 30 yrs of marriage you're willing to throw in the towel because you cant afford marriage counseling? Do you have any idea how much the average divorce costs? 20 thousand dollars! H and I have had attorneys( H filed on me) and it cost him one thousand dollars just to file for D on me for one day then cancel it! That could have bought 10 sessions of marriage counseling! use your VISA- counseling is always preferable and cheaper to divorce lawyers!

HH, it sounds like you did a fine job of laying out the situation for your wife. And I think it's great that you are working on setting boundaries for yourself - sounds like you have already got a great start on that! I hope she will come around for you, you deserve much better.

Last night she was very repentive, warm & assured me that all yesterday afternoon she could not imagine how she could have a life without me & that she definitely does not want to split up. She said she is afraid to tell me that she loves me. She said she needs help, that she does not understand what is going on with herself. <P>MLC is big part of this – Also, Hormonal thing – she does not want to go GYN – she likes increased sex drive & is afraid with supplements she’ll lose it.<P>She said that she does not want to look like a teenager, but that she definitely likes the compliments that she does not look like she will be 50! I did not want to be directive or limit her input with my comments, but I wonder, are these the kinds of compliments common coming from women? It is my perception guys will throw those compliments out particularly when it is obvious that the women is going to some effort for the youthful look & if the guy wants to flirt. ?? <P>Am I missing something here? It seems to me a women does not have to wear short skirts & tight tops & bikini’s to the pool to get compliments from other women about how nice they look or there youthful look do they? <P>Would it be fair to point out to her that she resist verbalizing her love to me (she’s never said she loved me in 30 + years) or showing me affection & she suggests that I am too needy or insecure; that her need to hear these compliments is perhaps unhealthy? I know this is topic in her C -- I should probably leave well enough alone.<P>She is still hanging on the idea that her dress is Stylish.<P>She was definitely affectionate & loving last night & this morning.<BR>Thanks for input!<BR>HH<P>

I Met with our Pastor on Wednesday. I shared with him my interpretation of my C’s concern about me setting limits & a little more about my W’s history & a potential of something weird happening 10 years ago with the father of child she babysat for & her A of 20 years ago. Regarding the babysitter thing where the couple were getting a divorce, He said to remember that in a divorce, that it is a financial thing & that is why they try & prove adultery.?? I told him my concern about her dress & that she doesn’t seem to care about my feelings. I was telling him I may have to consider possibility that we are just not a good match.<P>He was empathetic & very neutral – stressing he is not C – wants to be friend to me & my W. In thinking back though, he seemed somewhat supportive of idea of D – I said I had hesitation because of how my mom might feel – He said I have to follow my own heart & not be concerned with her feelings – he gave me an example of a pastor friend that D’d & how he deflected questions. Is it weird he would not try to suggest I reconsider??! Perhaps he sensed it was more a consideration & not a heart felt intention?<P>A part of my talk with W yesterday included this discussion with P. A week back I had had a few drinks a couple nights in row & on a Saturday after mowing the yard I had a couple drinks -- Captain Morgan & coke. My W mentions that when she meet with our P the week before, she told him she was concerned about my drinking! I told her that I have not read about alcoholism in a while, but that I understood a person that does binge drinking has a problem -- like when she goes out and has her shooters along with other normal drink & when she meet us golfing before the crowd got there she had a vodka & lemon aide, then a couple beers with the group – she got real defensive & upset, saying I had nerve to suggest she was an alcoholic! – I said isn’t that what you suggesting to our Pastor about me?! <BR>I have had more drinks in the evening a week or so back than I normally do – normally I have none – Except for last night, I had none this week – I also have a couple beers after golf – maybe I have a problem, I don’t think I do, but I felt it was really weird that she tell him that??<BR>Just another day at the Zoo!<BR>HH

Reactions to Compliments:<P>It has been suggested before that I may not give my W enough compliments. I have always been very complimentary. She has been working to be better, but she has told me many times and gives non verbal clues that she does not like for me to compliment her – because she cannot return the compliments, and that because of this it makes her feel guilty when I compliment her. The first A, 20 years ago was with a salesman that called on the store where she worked (supposedly, although I suspect a mutual friend at the time). One common theme between the most current & past A, she mentioned (as a rationalization ) that the “compliments felt so good” – like then, she emphasized that she knew I complimented her all the time, it is just that when it came from another (remember these guys were virtual strangers to her!), it meant so much more – like she could not resist the temptation!<P>She also said that she never really loved me, that she saw our marriage as one more of a convenience. Now in counseling she was quick to add that she has felt more emotions towards me in last few months. She has still yet to tell me that she loves me in 30+ years.<P>Since “Physical Appearance” has been a justified “need” in our recent discussions, she has stated that this is indeed important to her & that I had let my weight get out of hand. (I have since lost 25 lbs., but still not thin (5’10’ 208 lbs.) & I am still age 51! Remember, these guys were constructions types aged 32 & 36. She confessed to being obsessed with this type & checking out road crews & guys in pick up trucks. On one occasion she had got in car & drove to neighborhood where she saw these guys & stopped for some chit, chat & made a date. <P>She had confided with her two divorced cousins who are 37 & 38 about her A’s & they had a special new bonding & were going out on the town when she visited them last summer, fall & Christmas – 300 + miles away. Going to bars & dancing. She spoke of slow dancing with guy who they all kidded her may not of been of legal age! She also spoke of guy buying her a drink called “Sex on the Beach.” Do you think she was perhaps sending a particular message, or was she just an innocent victim again?? She said in confession that during this time she had a feeling that she could date anyone she wanted.<P>Do you get the impression that she was really into the flirting, dating game!!<P>I may be self-centered, and my Taker may be dominating my Giver here, but I have a sense, most guys in my situation with what she has done & what she now says & when she goes out with tight shorts or skirt & tight tank top with string straps, would be a little nervous. ?? I can’t help but to think she has a little voice inside her telling her it would be nice to get the kind of attention she had before from young, studly guys –-- I believe she thinks she can handle the flirting & not let it go too far this time. My point is, she does not have a good track record of handling these things, why tempt fate – ??<P>To me, if a person has a severe allergy to poison ivy, their walk through the woods should be a little different than most peoples! ??<P>Peace,<BR>HH

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:<BR><B><BR>A part of my talk with W yesterday included this discussion with P. A week back I had had a few drinks a couple nights in row & on a Saturday after mowing the yard I had a couple drinks -- Captain Morgan & coke. My W mentions that when she meet with our P the week before, she told him she was concerned about my drinking....HH</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>DO you drink to get drunk or to a certain state of intoxication? Or do you stop before that point? I don't know many alcoholics who would STOP at a couple of drinks, that would be like WASTING alcohol.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana114:<BR><B> DO you drink to get drunk or to a certain state of intoxication? Or do you stop before that point? I don't know many alcoholics who would STOP at a couple of drinks, that would be like WASTING alcohol.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dana114,<BR>Good question.<BR>I get a little buzz, but do stop after a couple & do not continue until I am slurring words and stubbling up the stairs to bed. As an example, I still have a little left of the smallest bottlle (750ML) after three weeks. ??<P>I can have an compulsive personality. For example, I love to play golf & could do that virtually every day! 16 years ago I was smoking 2 & 1/2 packs of cigarettes a day -- not one since.<P>I have a feeling she wants to report some bad behavior on me, since she has such a record with the lustful A's -- to kind of even the record & perhaps offer this as a reason that I'm not being rational with my concerns about her.<P>Thanks for reply!<BR>HH<P>

More Issues with openness & honesty. -- my control vs. her accountability ??<P>Today is W’ day off – I’m trying hard not to be the cub reporter with so many questions, so I do not ask about her plans for the day. I ask if she wants to meet for lunch & she said no. She had spoke of tanning for upcoming wedding & I knew she spoke of grocery shopping.<P>I call her at 10:30 – thinking I can take the afternoon off & go to pool with her.<P>She returns my call as I am on way home around 1:15 PM -- she act depressed & says she is so undecided. I ask what is the matter. She said she is confused. Wants to look good for wedding, but neighbors are moving yard & feels self conscious about laying in back yard & she wanted to go to pool & was on the way, but turned around knowing I would be pissed if she did not tell me. Remember, I had stated I did not like the idea of her going to pool by herself “wearing bikini.” I just say OK. She went on to say that she went on 1 & ½ walk on the trail & that I would be pissed about that – her voice getting upset, crying tone. I had previously stated perhaps we could go to trail together as regular activity – this was July 5th ---we have not made first trip to walking trail since!<P>I said I was coming home for lunch & let’s go to the pool together – she said NO! I said lets not get all upset, just go & have some fun – she said she was going to have fun & that we don’t have to do everything together, she said “I don’t care what that Harley guy says!” I do not need a babysitter!! She continued, “I don’t like doing everything with you!”<P>She asked in very sarcastic tone, Are you retired now?!” How can you take the afternoon off?! She works three days a week & expects me to help with household chores, like vacuuming & laundry – which I don’t care really, it just seems she feels entitled to a lot with no real partnership spirit here -??.<P>In very calm voice I said, Hon, we need to talk. She hung up.<P>She called back & said I could come home, but she was not talking to me or anyone else!<P>I get home & she is laying on bed with eyes shut in her “poor me” kind of pout. I change cloths and say nothing.<P>A few minutes later she comes down with one piece swim suit & goes to back yard to tan – one lady neighbor next door is cutting grass.<P>What is your take here ?? It seems me requiring some accountability here is problem. Any ideas??<BR>Just being patient here at the zoo!<BR>Thanks!<BR>HH

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:<BR><B> <BR>Dana114,<BR>Good question.<BR>I get a little buzz, but do stop after a couple & do not continue until I am slurring words and stubbling up the stairs to bed. As an example, I still have a little left of the smallest bottlle (750ML) after three weeks. ??<P>I have a feeling she wants to report some bad behavior on me, since she has such a record with the lustful A's -- to kind of even the record & perhaps offer this as a reason that I'm not being rational with my concerns about her.<P>Thanks for reply!<BR>HH<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi HH,<P>You sure don't sound like an alcoholic to me. Or if you are, any self respecting alcoholic would be downright ashamed of you for taking 3 weeks to polish off a small bottle of booze! What a waste of good alcohol! hehe<P>I suspect you are right about your wife's motives in making this accusation, though. It is groundless and mean-spirited as hell.<P>Dana<P>

We’ve taken a time out – her in her corner & me in mine. A part of her flurry is that she has felt & says she looks ”puffy” and feels fat. In counseling she said guy hit up on her at a vulnerable time --?? Would this be when she was not feeling particularly good about herself & the flattery meant more than it would normally. I am guessing yes & this could be anytime.<P>She said she does not understand why I need some accountability.<P>She has never been accustomed to supporting any of my needs – this I think is a problem for her. As an example, I have taught a High School Sunday school class for around 11 years & she has never asked me about it or encouraged any conversation when I would take about it. I have done the announcing for the high school girls Basket team for TV video re-broadcasts for around 9 years. She has watched a total of about 3 minutes and says that she can not stand to hear my voice when I watch it. <BR>She has challenged me to quite doing both things, saying it is a waste of my time & I need to turn it over to others. I get a lot of positive feedback from parents & have good rapport with students, I enjoy supporting & encouraging them<BR>She has normally spent a couple weeks of the summer by herself at her parents & another couple weeks at her cousins & a week at our daughters. He always expressed big need to be away for her sanity – it gave me a break from her critical eye as well, but I was always bothered that she discouraged me from calling.<P>In reflection, do you get the impression that she really does not like my company?<P>She is definitely used to having her way. Making accommodations for me is not a normal way of thinking for her.<P>She has begun conversation again. 5:05 PM<P>HH

Too Much Control?<P>If you are at all familiar with my situation & posts, you know that I have some issues with how my W dresses. I have also been told that I obsess too much on these things, which I can understand how one would think that. My Pastor asked if I post here in order to gain information to “Control” my W. I have very rarely shown my W these posts – it has been a couple months at least & she found some in my brief case. Understand that in our married life I have had very little say in important matters. If I have a different opinion she goes into a temper tantrum & I give in to what she wants to do. I have a strong feeling she mentioned the control thing to our pastor because she knows I get some independent thoughts from here that many times supports my position & she is used to just dealing with her dominating attitude over me & she has lost some of this & this alone has caused some additional tension between us.<P>From my posts of yesterday you know she became very upset with idea of me joining her at the pool – Her stated perspective was that she did not need a babysitter! This morning she apologized and said she did not know what was happening to her – she had complained of funny feelings & anxiety & she has been having extreme vaginal dryness (only one menstrual flow since January), and she has a migraine, which had been a continuing problem with her menstrual flow for the past 18 years or so, up until a couple years ago. Yes, she had severe PMS symptoms!<P>To give you an idea of her independent nature (& my lack of control!) – I had insisted on GYN tests for STD in January when she was back home with her parents – At the time she was coming back in March & Dr. suggested she wait until just before returning home. I went back & made up with her & we came back February 10, 2001. She had not had a pap smear in four years or so & lots of people & material suggested her increased sex drive could be due to decreased estrogen & thus increased influence of male sex hormones. I had suggested her going to GYN a few times & each time I got stuff back that I was too controlling and it created a fight. This was real issue prior to her week long mission trip at end of June, when I said I thought she needed estrogen supplement & that would balance out her hormones where the dramatic sex drive would come under better control – She informed me this morning she has appointment with GYN.<P>When she apologized this morning I told her that I did not object to her going to the pool, it was just her going by herself with the bikini thing I was uncomfortable about. She said that if she looked ridiculous it was her problem not mine. I said, why, were you going with bikini & she said yes (that was her dilemma, to go or not to go, because if there were doubts about how I felt before, it was real clear when this post started last week). I said nothing – she added that she felt it was a safe haven. I said nothing --- remained calm.<P>It is this kind of issue I believe that has created discussions with her C about whether we should separate (or whether she wants to stay, cause she is used to having it all her way!) & what started the topic of therapeutic separation. Specifically where I bring up issues I want to address & things I ask for that she does agree with.<P>Perhaps I’m wacko, but even given her history, perhaps she is not “trolling,” (However, I can’t be certain she is not) for opportunity to meet another young stud, but my point is why tempt fate??<P>Her point about the pool is that most all of the people are kids and fat moms. When I was with her this is a true perception – only a couple guys by themselves & a few young teens in bikinis. However, in my opinion, if a guy is trolling for a pick up or some action, she would stand out like a banana with a bunch of apples. It was only one guy that got her last thing started. She said she was the victim & this guy was a predator. I do not offer rebuttals to these statements so as to not get into battles, but it seems logical to me that a guy looking for some action with a new babe, the swimming pool would be a good place to check out & a 48 year old wearing a bikini, by herself, would seem to me to be a good target – this may sound like a broken record, but am I the only one that would think this way?? My W would suggest that I’m totally paranoid & it is not fair to make these kinds of assumptions!<P>She seems to want to dismiss her last thing as a brief (six months with two guys) indiscretion & that because of all the shame & guilt associated with this among her kids, parents & a few friends, that I should take comfort that she would never do such a thing again and if it does happen she’ll let me know. This is what I am having a tough time accepting. I want a few more assurances & some safety kinds of check points for her to follow, like this openness & honesty policy to begin with. <P>Do you think that the thought of being busted again & the corresponding consequences are enough of a deterrent for her to be stronger when next temptation present itself? And that I should not ask for certain things to help minimize the likelihood of next temptation – I can’t prevent guys from hitting up on her – should I just leave it her hands??<P>HH

Tank Top / drawing the line Update :<BR>I am getting weak on fine lines of dress here – <P>A week ago Thursday was when we had our luncheon discussion where I announced I had to draw the line & mentioned the sexy dress thing. This week we go to mall with her wearing blue jeans shorts with 3 inch inseam, (which some would argue, but I think is on the short side) and a tight tank top (although the top was not the string strap variety). Yesterday to work she wears her jeans ¾ length pants (chaps? Sorry I forgot name!) and tank top with string strap. The only thing I said was about her shorts & that they were a lot shorter than mine. She got upset & told me to give up on her dress thing!<P>Many have advised me to give up on this dress thing & I am beginning to get weak.<P>I am reminded however of her “A’s” – These were not just a couple indiscretions. She met the first guy on a Saturday & the following Thursday they were doing it in our hallway, just after I had called & was on my way home 15 minutes away. After a week & the guy (age 32) did not call back, she said she felt dirty & used (DAA!) and began calling him –a lot. The second guy (age 36) was the first guys friend who was doing an escovating job a couple doors down & knocked at front door & said he knew what she & his friend did & that seemed to be enough for her to invite him in for sex in our guest room. On another occasion the second guy had sex with my W in Guest room, then the same day the first guy came around at noon & she fixed him lunch & then they went to guest room. At the same time she *& I are having sex a couple times a day. The went on from 07-20-00 to D/Day 01-17-01.<P>She now says that she was a victim, they were predators & her increased sex drive was my fault because I had her watch pornography & she acts as if she was not responsible. Unbelievable, I know, but true!<P>I have expressed a need for admiration & affection, which she has improved upon some, but admits it is extremely difficult & not in her nature. In other words her & my relationship is about the same. She can be very nice & cheery many times & in public she is miss congeniality. Most people would question why I would not be pleased to have such a wife. In fact I think the A’s have given her a boost in self confidence & social graces & has validated for her the that fact that she is very desirable by many guys, even the young studs! Any suggestion she change her way as a result of the A’s I believe she perceives as a slap in the face to her self esteem & is intended as punishment & this is not fair – I should forget it all and act as if it never happened.<P>In June of this year when she went on mission trip to Appalachian Trail in Virginia, as a chaperon for High school boys & girls, one of the printed requirements was for no Tank Top or Halter Tops – I tried to make a subtle point & asked her why she thought this was forbidden. She said because of the sensitivity of the people in Virginia. Maybe I’m wrong, but I would think in addition, it would help keep hormones of high Schoolers in check. But in any case she refuses to admit to the sexual sensitivity here & how it may apply to her.<P>My point is, no matter the fashion aspects, can it be argued that tank Tops & Halter Tops do not have strong sexual connotations?! My wife can look seductive in any thing, but would the tank top thing be a reasonable limit??? Do I need to bring up some of these past details of A and her admission of importance of Physical Attractiveness & that I’m still 51, to remind her from a logical standpoint, I don’t have too many safety measures here??<P>She has not seen her C in two weeks and My C wants to bring my W in Wednesday. Her appointment is Thursday – she mentioned last night that she did think we could afford to see both next week – I said I wondered how she would feel & that I thought it was more important for her to see hers. Should I postpone joint session ?? I sense she is feeling a little pressured and wants to run some of these current things past her C – we’re not going to have much more $ the following week.<P>Here’s an example of how she understands my point & chooses to go along with limitation. Just after I wrote the above commentary (Saturday 09-01), we are preparing to friends house, who has been my primary support person & my W knows that he pretty much agrees with my position on the dress. She is wearing more conservative shorts & a sleeveless top. She starts to peel top off & I ask “why are you changing” & she responds that she does not want to be too slutty. I calmly tell her that I thought she looked fine & that there is a big difference between a sleeveless top & a tank top. She says in upset voice, “I’ve wore tank tops for all our marriage!” I wanted to respond back that I don’t believe you have been fooling around with two guys all that time have you?!” – I said nothing and left the room. Within 5 minutes she was conversing as if nothing had been said. Is she working me here?! When we go out with our friends, she definitely tones it down & dresses more like our lady friends. I don’t expect this universal acceptance when we go by ourselves or when she is out to work or shopping or whatever.<P>Again, she says things like she does not understand why I have certain request – like account for some time & tone down the dress. Should I be very specific & remind her of the specifics of what she did & for how long & point out that any reasonable man would make similar request??? I hesitate to throw the A’s up in her face, but it seems she wants to throw her way up at me & challenge me that I need to get more secure with her way –like it is all my problem.<P>Trying to survive here in the Zoo – I should mention, the sex is great – I’m not really in total misery! Just trying to be fair & protect my interest here.<BR>Peace,<BR>HH<BR>

Trust??<BR>I’m trying hard to put these feeling of insecurity & lack of trust for W behind me and at times I feel comfortable, other times not, but I always appreciate your input & it is helpful! <P>I know that I do not convey my points well sometimes. What I am trying to figure out is if she is truly committed to making our marriage better & If she really cares about my feelings. One of the difficulties is that while the A’s were going on she seemed somewhat happy – we were having sex a lot & going out with friends – had a wonderful getta way weekend for our 30th anniversary (last year at this time in fact) – celebrated with two close couples friends –she was in motel with first guy 4 or 5 days later. I have a difficult time discerning a difference in her overall attitude towards me now compared to then.<P>This dress thing is much deeper – It’ an attitude & her frame of reference regarding the A’s. She was not exactly a passive player with these OM – She spent an hour with first guy in our yard discussing his bid & she referred him to neighbors – they were quit chummy from the beginning. Four days later he & his crew were at the house trimming the trees & my W came home early from work & that is when the flirting began that lead to sex in our home. Now remember, after their first encounter he did not call back & it was her that began calling him & she confessed she became obsessed with the image of construction type guys & was checking out every guy in a pick up truck. On one occasion when she was with me in car she saw both of these guys working in adjoining neighborhood. When we got home I left for some reason & she got in her car & drove over to talk with them & she made a date with the first guy. On November 1 she had a date with the first guy & he stood her up. She them calls second guy & he & his wife happened to be separated at the time & she drove 20 miles to his place – spent an hour then back home to me – I’m sure she told me she was out shopping – that was her standard thing to account for her time – sometimes working – that of course is reason she discouraged me from calling her at work. This continues to be source of tenaion & I have made a habit of not calling her very much at work, because in her terms it shows I don't trust her.<P>She said she got caught up in this game. A Couple days before what became D/D she spent $200 at the Limited for a short skirt & couple blouses for their date (one of which she was taking back) & she confessed when they first were in the room time was spent with him holding her & him telling her how hot she looked! So it is my perception that her cloths played a big part in this game! So yes, perhaps you can appreciate that I wonder if she is not still in this game so to speak – boy meets girl, flirtatious, sexual tension interactions kinds of things – <P>Yesterday I tell her that our mutual friend suggested that I let this dress thing go. We’re out at public event & she wants to talk about it. She said she asked a couple of her friends and they were “honest” & told her there was nothing wrong with her dress -- as if this is totally objective feedback & I should accept this as fact. I told her it was more than dress, but I wondered about her commitment to me –she told me she was committed to not do that again, so long as we were married (I'm not sure why she tacked on the married part?). I told her that I did not recall her saying it that way before – that I recalled her saying that she would tell me if it happened again, which is a lot different – she said she had told me many times that she would not do this again – I just did hear her or listen. I think I would remember??<P>What continues to puzzle me a bit though is that She was so strong in saying that she did not see the tank top with string straps as having any sexual connotations! I asked her a couple times & challenged her about that & she was would not budge on that perspective – she said it was totally fashion & cool outfit for summer. She also argued point about church mission trip & youth group things restricting such wear. She will not budge an inch. She just does not compromise at all.<P>She has wavered as to whether to join me at C tomorrow, but agreed this morning to do that. I believe she feels some tension that her positions may be compromised with joint C. She would rather negotiate just with me. This would have to do with dress, but also any formal marriage enrichment ideas – any idea I come up with for a book or MB, in her mind are too accusatory or controlling by me -- ?? Do you get the impression that this recovery has to be on her terms & from her perspectives ?? She was clear yesterday that she is tired of hearing about my needs! And that this is driving us apart – Message is that I either comply with her whishes or it’s not going to work – which I believe is what she has discussed with her C – this is where they came up with therapeutic separation a few weeks back. Regarding her daily activity – she is not very forthcoming about her activities & when I ask, it creates tension -- love bust. ??? Do I just lay back & become the dutiful husband??<P>She has always told me that she does not like compliments from me because she does feel compelled to return them & she feels guilty because of that – I must say she has made an effort to show respect & compliment me more than before. When I offer a compliment She typically shrugs and acts as if I’m not sincere & challenges like “Oh sure?!” <P>Yesterday, I just wanted to snuggle & she tells me that I’m like a women (she said this with pleasant tone & said this is what most women want – I said, I guess this is where you are like a guy) – she does not like to snuggle – in her mind, we either we have sex or nothing. She has expressed annoyance about that she feels I’m just too needy!<P>Anyway, trying to keep peace at the Zoo, while maintaining some rights of my own – ??<P>Peace,<BR>HH<P>Added Perspective:<BR>Early in her confession D/D, she said Monday she had an opportunity to call off date for that Wednesday (D/D), and that we had just come off a great weekend together where we went antiquing together, movie & lunch & dinner out. I asked, well why didn’t you. Her response was my God, the guy is 36! Just too exciting – She had also said when they made the date the prior Thursday, she was upset at me because I would not let her take snow sking lessons by herself -- hour & half away -- & the compliments felt so good, she was just vulnerable --- This was at the stage of D/D evening when she was saying it was just a one time thing. Do you get the impression I was supposed to learn a lesson here to never get her upset or to not ever let her not get her own way? By the way, I later found out both of these OM snow skied. As a side note She had supposed not seen first since her Nov. 1 date with second guy. In her remorseful apology to me she emphasized that I need not worry that these guys did not really like her & would not be pursuing her -- Is there something missing in this?? She never spoke of her motives or lack there of.<P>People tell me I should continue to discuss "boundaries" -- I don't understand where to go with discussions with my W to get any kind of agreement or perspective that is remotely slanted my way??<BR>She added yesterday in sarcastic tone, "To think we get divorced because you don't like the way I dress" this I believe was intended to add her perspective that this will sound pretty foolish to other people as the reason we're splitting up. It's like she is drawing her line & she has reinforcement to support her position & if I want to pursue the dress thing, it is totally unfair. <P>I kept saying I did not want to discuss it, I wanted to give it a rest, but I think since I mentioned our mutual friend suggested letting it go, she wanted to advance discussion since she had some momentum going her way.<BR>Thanks for letting me vent here!<BR>This will perhaps give you a clue that is a little more than just her dress --?? And you are right the dress thing is just a symptom -- but I don't know how to get to the cure??<P>HH<BR>

Are you following any of the MB principals?<P>It seems like constantly discussing her style of clothing is a big LB....but you don't seem real concerned about that.<P>Do you consider yourself to be in recovery? She's not in an ongoing affair and is committed to making your marriage work? Are you both unsuccessful at rebuilding trust? <P>Would it take a change in her style and appearance for you to feel trust for her again? At the expense of her self-esteem? I'm not sure you will get her to accept that.<BR>Is there any compromise possible? Are there instances where its ok for her to look sexy?<P>I certainly am no expert on this, but it seems to me that you need to let some of this go. You are more focused on her appearance than she is.

Lexxy,<BR>you make excellant point -- I wanted to not discuss the dress thing yesterday & she wanted to drive home her points - Yes, I would definately accept some compromises -- she will not -- she would not agree that certain tops or looks have more of a sexual connotation than others. <BR>It is her obsession with young guys & how the cloths seemed to be a part of that that I'm trying to wrestle with & I'm not convinced she is always honest with me about her feelings --<BR>If she doesn't care to comprimise her dress because of my sensativaty & that it would detract from her self image -- I'm wondering that she may only think of herself again when the next guy makes more than a causulal pass at her sexy look. I'm not convinced she is not still in this game of sorts, girl meets guy kind of thing. ??<BR>Yesterday we're were at a public event observing different gals & she points to gal in her 20's with tank top & string strap & ask if I think she is a slut -- I say "you are not going to want to hear this, & it is unfair in a sense, but I think most guys are going to make differnt assumptions between her dressed that way and a gal with same outfit in 40's -- she said other's with figure & that old wear them --we did not see older gals dressed that way -- young crowd. In same group of young people a couple gals were wearing short sleeve tops & I ask her if those tops would be a social embarrassement - she said no & that she has those.<BR>She was very emphatic in saying that a tank top with a string strap has absoulutley no sexual connotaions?! I'm sorry, I don't buy that.<BR>When she was havings A's I don't recall specific events, but I know her standard reason for not being home would be work & shopping -- There is always tension when I call her at work & she aserts the only reason I call is to check up on her & so I have made a special effort to not call very often.<BR>She totally resist MB or any other marriage enrichment, infidelity recovery books -- says I just want to punish her & control her.<BR>I suggested going to pool with her (in her bikini) last week & she gets extremely upset saying she does not need a baby sitter. she did later apologise for that blow up.<BR>I suggested that church youth group & camps make a point of forbidding gals from wearing halter tops & tank tops for a reason -- she totally rejects that as a reasonable request or has anything to do with idea is to tone down the dress in sexual way. <BR>I suggest we try & do more together & she stresses importance of doing things seperatly.<P>She says I won't froget A's -- I think she could do more to help me forget, but anything she does has to be her idea & her way, not mine.<BR>I told her yesterday I like for her to look sexy for me -- she wore her bikini in back yard while I cut the grass.<BR>She is joining me at C tomorrow.<BR>But you are right, I don't think she'll accept toning down dress - someone else posted that they thought if it was between sexy dress & saving our marriage she would choose sexy dress.<BR>Thanks for input!<BR>HH<P>