<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?<hr></blockquote><p>I don't want to be married to anyone where the 2 choices are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. If I have to sacrifice [or HIDE] the truth to stay married to someone, I would rather pass.

I think the point is - do you want to do what it takes to get the WS to a point where they want to work on the marriage or not?<p>Unfortunately some WS's don't immediately see the error of theor ways and need us to work some psycology on them - which is Plan A.<p>Now no one says to do Plan A forever - it's just done for enough time as it takes to get teh WS to see changes - then you go to Plan B.<p>The question on the table seems to be - can you feel like a doormat long enough to execute Plan A - in the hopes of salvaging your marraiage - or is it too important to tell the WS at the onset how they are supposed to respond and act and then of they don't immediately come around and apologize then you leave. If you choose way #2 then you certainly don't ever have a chance at saving the marriage, but you at least have a chance with with a Plan A.<p>And when the WS comes out of the fog, then they begin to learn how to respect you and make the marriage better than before.<p>NO ONE here would do Plan A forever because then it would allow the WS to dis respect us and for us to disrespect ourselves.<p>Plan A and Plan B are also what you do while waiting for the affair to end. So you have to go on the premise that the affair will end - or you end up ending the marriage - there is a time limit for Plan B too.<p>Hope this helps. K

Glancing at all the comments, I believe it needs to be clarified (so that all can be on the same page). 'Want to be right' means what? At any cost? Right or wrong? No. <p>Want to be married means what? At any cost? Right or wrong? No. <p>So now where are we? Of course we want to be right all the time, but are we? No. ARe we married all the time? Well, yes until we are divorced. Ahh.......now the diff. <p>Since marriage is a state/status/event/condition/fact then comparing it to being 'right' in a complete sense is like comparing apples and oranges. Both have their place but to work together it must be a balanced thing. You can not be married by yourself. Therefore, you can not heal a broken marriage by yourself. But you can make yourself as best as you can be. Then the other part is up to the other half. <p>My H tried to throw that I wanted to be 'right' all the time. Well, yes that is a correct statement. Who doesn't? But what he meant was that my choices were often more correct than his and this, this made him angry. Was that my fault? No. Should I cower to his accusation? No. What could I do? <p>1. I admitted to wanting to be right but no more than anyone else and acknowledged that I knew I was never always right nor did I force my opinions on others. Just presented it and let others make up their mind. H knew this but hey he had to try to make me look bad so he picked on this lamo reason......<p>2. Next what about H? Hmm.....that was a bit harder. How do you let someone know they have a 'booger hanging out of their nose' without embarassing them?
a. You don't and everyone sees it
b. Bite the bullet, take some flack but in the long run save them from further embarassement. <p>I choose 2B. I then told H that I expected him to be angry with me but I did not want him to suffer more. If he wanted to continue his suffering that would be his choice but not my blame. <p>Put it all out in the open. It was no longer an issue of my being right and him being wrong. It was a matter of his 'booger' (life's mistakes) being exposed for more and more people to see. <p>Why did I do this? I loved my H and no longer wanted him to be the joker that he had become. I wanted him to get better. Once he realized this, things got better. Then being right (for the right reasons) and being married (for the right reasons) merged into one goal.....family happiness. <p>JMHO,
L.

Nellie ~ <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I do not agree that it is grammatically possible to respect an action - you can respect a person, but you can only approve or disapprove of an action.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't like the term "approve" because it sets ourselves up as "judge". But in concept, I agree with you.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I also disagree that people are deserving of respect just because they are human - respect is something that must be earned. <hr></blockquote><p>I believe that there are at least 2 levels of respect. One is respect based on the fact that everyone deserves to be treated with basic human dignity. The US Bill of Rights does not say you have to EARN the right to freedom, etc. You are granted those rights because you are a recognized member of the human race.<p>I certainly don't hold many individuals in high regard, or respect, because of their actions. But thats totally different from recognizing that they have the right to make their own choices, think their own thoughts, and basically lead their own lives without interference (within bounds of the law of course!).<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I also disagree that affairs can not happen out of the blue - often they do happen exactly that way, either as an inappropriate response to anger, or loneliness, or depression, or even just opportunity. <hr></blockquote><p>I don't know that ANYONE here thinks that affairs happen out of the blue. Where did you get that from all that was written here? Affairs happen for ALL KINDS of reasons.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Doing my best to avoid disrespectful judgements and lb's was a HUGE MISTAKE in my case. Although it is not a great idea to go off into tirades on a regular basis, sometimes it is far more important to stand your ground than it is to worry about whether or not you are lb'ing.<hr></blockquote><p>I believe that one can stand one's ground without LBing. I don't believe that we have to choose between doormathood and LBs. Boundaries can be drawn that may offend the WS - and I've never agreed with avoiding the WS's annoyance at all cost. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Many male WS's feel caught between what the OW tells them to do and what they know is right (I am talking here about their kids or their financial obligations, etc., not about the affair per se) and if the WS is anything less than absolutely unbudgeable she and the kids will get shafted.<hr></blockquote><p>In my situation, the OW actually felt that she had a RIGHT to be involved in financial decisions and transactions involving our family. He was head over heels in love with her and he did neglect us financially under her influence. But he never abandoned us. I was never forced to go to work. In fact he bought me a car during this time to her extreme anger which she took out on him.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>WS's come back if and only if the affair ends - and the ending of the affair typically has little or nothing to do with anything the BS says or does, or doesn't say or do.<hr></blockquote><p>Yesssss...to a point, but I disagree. I do believe that either a WS is open to coming home or not. My H and I were MISERABLE for 10 years. Neither of us wanted that marriage back - we were BOTH done with that. Now, granted, he wasn't going to come back until the affair was done...BUT with the affair finished, there was no guarantee he was coming back. My changes made him want to try again because it was the right thing to do, and he felt that I was someone he could live with. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think it is incorrect to claim that by "accepting" your H, you are no longer trying to control him. I do not believe that the question of whether or not your "accepting" him would have an impact on the probability of success of your marriage never entered your mind. Everything we do as humans, every decision we make, is an attempt to control our environment. That is just the way it is - it is one of the fundamental constructs behind natural selection, and it is true for every living creature. <hr></blockquote><p>Actually Nellie ~ I learned acceptance of my H at the time I decided to divorce him. It wasn't a manipulation attempt.

Seeking2001 ~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> What I need is to have some respect for myself. What I need is for the man I love to be honest with me and not blame me for his lying and cheating. What I need is a mature partner who will take responsiblility for his own actions. What I need is for him to show some respect for me. <hr></blockquote><p>I need these things too. No arguments here.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What I don't need is to push all of my hurt and anger and confusion and frustration down deeper inside of me and just live with it because to reveal it seems unaccepting of who he is or is "love busting". This would undoubtedly make his feel better, but at what cost to my emotional and physical well being? <hr></blockquote><p>Nonononono. I am the FIRST person to say that repression of emotion is the WORST thing anyone can do. I have survived depression - and I can tell you first hand that "stuffing" emotions is baaaaaad. I'm talking about acceptance of reality, and not forcing values on another person through disrespectful judgements and selfish demands. I am NOT suggesting that you stuff emotions to avoid LBs. What is necessary is to learn how to deal with the emotion in healthy ways rather than LBs. For example, rather than scream at my H in angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, and selfish demands, I learned to write him long angry letters....but I never sent them. The fury I released while writing was sooooooooooo good for me. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If his condition for staying married is that I accept his infidelity quietly and meekly, never question him about the whys and hows, and instead try to find something wrong with myself to account for actions that he took on his own without regard for me then he can leave.<hr></blockquote><p>I have not for even a second suggested that this is what anyone should do. I certainly didn't do this. 8 months later, my H and I are STILL discussing the whys and hows.<p>I am not responsible for his decision to have an affair. However, I *AM* responsible for 50% of the marriage, and I did participate in creating the environment where his decision became a possiblity. I worked on me, taking responsiblity for MY part in the marriage. This is why I actually came through this experience with MORE self-esteem than when I started. When I stopped demanding that my H fix himself and change himself to suit me...thats when he decided to do so. Funny how that works.<p>I think you have fundamentally misunderstood this thread. I don't know how else to say that.

I received this on my e-mail thoughts for the day... it sorta fits...<p>Adapt or perish, now as ever, is Nature's
inexorable imperative.
--H.G. Wells<p>Some of us have pretty firm, even rigid, ideas
about the way things "ought" to be. We want
people and places to stay the same as they
always were. Sometimes our unhappiness with
change is simply nostalgia; part of our youth
disappears when the corner drugstore gives
way to a parking lot. But sometimes our
resistance to change is more serious&#8212;as if the
battles we've already fought took such a toll
that all we can think of is digging in right
where we are.<p>Yet all growth requires change and all change
is a matter of adjustment. Perhaps we need to
move forward or backward, lighten up or
tighten up, let go of something old and reach out for something new. Perhaps we need to
reconsider a negative attitude or be willing to
do something we've never done before.<p>The circumstances and characteristics that
bolstered our youthful self-esteem are sure to
change as the years go by. As reality changes,
so must our perspective change if we are to
stay fully alive for all of our days. Adaptation
is not only necessary&#8212;it's natural.

Hi BrambleRose,<p>After nearly three years of dealing with betrayal, I think I finally understand your question. When I first joined MB, one veteran in particular would often ask a new poster that very question, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?" I just didn't get if for a LONG time!<p>When first confronting an affair, it is easy to get caught up in righteous indignation ("How could he hurt ME so badly? I haven't done anything to deserve this! Why did this happen to ME? I AM RIGHT AND HE IS WRONG!") Unfortunately, some people seem to just get stuck there.<p>I too wanted my husband to "see the error of his ways" and to admit that he was completely wrong. I guess I really wanted him to assure me that I hadn't been a bad wife! I wanted him to FEEL the pain he had inflicted on me and to be as broken by it as I was.<p>But that didn't happen, and it probably never will. Because the affair really didn't mean much to HIM, he couldn't really understand how it could be so devastating to ME. And as long as my focus was on being the damaged, betrayed wife, NOBODY was focusing on saving the marriage. I regrettfully admit that I spent too much time focusing on my own pain and sorrow, and he spend just as much time avoiding dealing with it!<p>It was only when I realized that IF our marriage was going to survive, SOMEBODY had better start doing the right things, and it was going to HAVE to be me. So I started following the Harley advice, hoping my husband would follow suit. He not only did that, he actually took the lead in our recovery.<p>BUT, that was after many months of MY efforts to "be right" pushed him right back into the arms of the other woman. Often, a person involved in an affair has a pretty clear choice- a raging, punishing, name-calling spouse or an OP who tells them they are wonderful and sexy and fabulous. Let's be honest here, which would WE choose?<p>A very wise and wonderful counselor helped get me on the right track. She made me see that I had to LET GO of the marriage we had before because the affair ENDED that. After all, if it was the kind of relationship that let to an affair, why would I WANT to go back to it? Instead, she focused her efforts on helping us to begin a new stage in our life together integrating the Harley principles AND the things we have learned along the way. It is a slow and steady process. We haven't found any miracles along the way, but we ARE finding our way together.<p>It is my firm belief that IF I had not gotten over being stuck in the "I'm right and you are WRONG" mindset, we would NOT be together right now. The truth of the matter is that we have BOTH been wrong sometimes, we have BOTH been right sometimes, and we BOTH want to be married to each other. And that is what keeps us here, still struggling sometimes, but still here TOGETHER.<p>I choose being married!<p>Peppermint

This is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, and very often around here, the BUILDING takes place after infidelity. Dr's Harley have set up a plan to RECOVER your marriage, which may or may not mean a restored marriage -- but WILL mean a restored SELF.<p>I LOVE the title of this thread: Do you want to be RIGHT - or do you want to be MARRIED. <p>I've quoted it myself. I stuck it out in my long-term marriage for a long time because of the sentiment behind the words -- I WANTED TO BE MARRIED!! But FIRST, I wanted to be RIGHT!!!<p>My ex-H and I tried SO HARD to be RIGHT, and we ran our marriage into the TOILET! So our family, which had taken 20 YEARS to build, was shattered into a million pieces. In my case, I was *right* but so was my (then)H, in his way. Too bad we couldn't see beyond all that and realize we wanted to be MARRIED first, RIGHT second.<p>I am now using the concepts in my second marriage. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! It took awhile, but I can honestly say that I have NO DESIRE to be RIGHT. I just want to be in a LOVING MARRIAGE. And I am.

For me it is a question of want vs need. I don't want or need to be right. To be right would be just as you said, me manipulating H into doing or saying all the 'right' things. And yes I do want to be married (most of the time). The problem is the needs...I need love and affection and time. How does one get those things without seeming to be manipulative? I have told him my needs in a very calm and honest manner. He just doesn't seem to care about attempting to meet them...or he tries to meet them in ways that his are met. I appreciate his actions very much; do I have the right to need him to meet my needs in the way that my heart 'hears' them? And how to explain this to him?

I've been listening to Phil McGraw's audio book RELATIONSHIP RESCUE, and he has a section entitled something like this thread, with I think the same meaning as BR.<p>Yesterday, my H & 16 year old daughter got into a "head butting" contest over, of all things the spelling of a name. "You said ie". "No, I said ei." And they must have repeated that interchange a dozen times. I finally waved my hand, "Hey guys, it doesn't matter, the phone number has been found." <p>They both were caught in wanting to be right, whether they got into a huge fight or not. <p>This is obviously a simplistic example, when infidelity is involved, but sometimes when you find yourself in a no win/no point arguement with even a WS who is not going to change their mind no matter what you say at that point, drop it.<p>And...my sixteen year old did say ie when she meant ei. But, she didn't even back off when I told her so.

Bramble Rose:
"A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield." <p>I think that disrespectful judgments are not limited to spouses. Your post seems to me to make the asssumption that your own views are right and I, and many others are woefully misguided. As you know, people are put off by that. People have the right to their own opinions and views. Mine differs from yours and many others. Is it less right?<p>The circumstances of my husband's infidelity and our marriage differ from yours as well. We handled his affairs in a totally different way and we were never separated. My answers to the question "do you want to be right or do you want to be married" remain the same, regardless of the fact that you believe I fundamentally misunderstood your thread. Rebuilding a marriage is the point isn't it? My husband and I simply took a different path to that end.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think that disrespectful judgments are not limited to spouses. Your post seems to me to make the asssumption that your own views are right and I, and many others are woefully misguided. As you know, people are put off by that. People have the right to their own opinions and views. Mine differs from yours and many others. Is it less right?<hr></blockquote><p>We are on the MarriageBuilders site, discussing how to implement Dr. Harley's concepts into our lives. My post is written with the assumption that we are starting from that agreement in common.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My answers to the question "do you want to be right or do you want to be married" remain the same, regardless of the fact that you believe I fundamentally misunderstood your thread. Rebuilding a marriage is the point isn't it? My husband and I simply took a different path to that end. <hr></blockquote><p>That's great that you rebuilt your marriage. I'm sure many marriages have recovered with different answers than mine. If your answers worked for you...great....but that doesn't change the fact that your answers (at least from what I can discern from your post, which isn't really enough information) involved something other than the Plan A we implement here.<p>I'm glad you got to be both right and married. I'm truely not being sarcastic. Maybe you can start a thread explaining how you this worked for you.

I needed to see this thread today. I did some serious LB`ing last night and I need some butt kicking. <p>Everything that BrambleRose has said makes perfect sense to me but...<p>When I think about my marriage and everything that has happened, the EA, the PA, the criminal activity with the pot I think to myself "this is your H, this is who you married and nope you cannot change him you have to accept him the way he is. The problem for me though is that I feel like I have married the wrong person. I did not know who he was when I married him. It`s like if someone had tried to set me up on a blind date and told me that my date was a bank robber I would have said thanks but no thanks. I wouldn`t have gone out with him. I would have had the info beforehand and would have made my choice. <p>Alot of the info about my H, who he is was sprung on me AFTER we were married and I was stuck. I can hear about rotten things that other people have done, robbing banks, molesting children, murdering ect. and still some emapthy for those people. We are all a product of our environment, our upbringing. Child molestors are not born that way, terrible things have happened to them that have made them do what they do. Society does have to deal with them and try to keep them from repeat offenses but we still need to have some understanding of why they are the way they are. Even though I don`t condone some of the horrible things that people do I can STILL have respect for them as human beings. But I wouldn`t choose to marry one.<p>No my H is not a child molestor but he has done some awful things. I can understand alot of what he did. But that doesn`t NEGATE the effect what his acts have had on me and our children. I respect him a a human but I would not have chosen him as a mate or to father my children if I had know the type of person he was. <p>I`m not perfect, no one is but different people choose to deal with life`s problems in different ways. So my H chose to deal with his problems by doing XYZ. It was his right to do so. At first I was very judgemental but less so now. I "get' the "do you want to be married or do you want to be right philosophy", I think. My problem is that I feel that if given the INFORMED choice I would have chosen someone who dealt with life`s problems in a different way. I understand that I cannot change my H, he is who he is and has the RIGHT to be who he is. But what happens if the person who your spouse is is not someone who you would choose to be with? <p>I feel like I was cheated out of making an informed choice. The wool was pulled over my eyes. I will never understand why my H choose to marry me when there are LOTS of women out there who do drugs and engage in criminal activity. Why me???? He would have saved us us both alot of grief if he had chosen someone more like him. I was very upfront about my own morals and personal values from the start. I don`t think I am necessarily better than him, just different. <p>I don`t feel like we are a good fit. My H has been working his butt off to make the marriage work, He stopped the pot and now is in AA. Last night he asked me what more could he do and I answered "change who you are as person" Uh Oh!!! Massive LB!!!! I know. Someone please stick a sock in my mouth!!! I don`t know how to stop feeling like this, even when I don`t tell him what I am feeling, I still feel it. Bramble Rose is right, even though you don`t say the nasty things right to your spouses face it comes across in everything you do. There is a huge wall between us and we both know it.

I want to be married, but I have acted as though being right was more important.<p>I have lurked on this site for a year and a half, and have often found insight, comfort in finding that my situation was not unique, and sometimes even hope. I have to say that the central question of this thread, and your other post re infidelity and reconciliation in the context of twelve steps, have hit me where I live.<p>I have been serious about my plan A, or so I have thought. All the while I have been working on my shortcomings, I have also felt that I held the moral high ground. I felt that my wife's actions were "wrong", and was frustrated both in JC sessions and in conversations with my wife that this point of view was not shared. In fact, no matter how gently I mentioned the topic, it still amounted to a disrespectful judgement. I see now that this was a fuitless and misguided approach on my part. It amounted to trying to achieve control of the situation by framing it in terms that were to my advantage. No wonder my wife responded with even more distance.<p>I admire the approach you have taken, to work on yourself and to accept your spouse as a separate, sovereign human being. The fact that it appears to be working for you gives me the most hope I have felt in a long time.<p>Thanks!

Thanks for this post, BrambleRose. Accepting each other for who we are in a relationship, and being willing to accept the fact that our way isn't always the RIGHT way for the relationship is such a HUGELY IMPORTANT part of recovery.<p>Frankly, I would question exactly how "recovered" a relationship is where both parties haven't come to these realizations. It's a bit saddening to see people struggling to understand this concept...I wish I could shake some shoulders and say "DO YOU SEE?!?!?"

shameless bump.

BR;
An infinitely valuable post...thanks! ;-)

Hi Bramble...<p>If it wasn't for the fact that you have three kids, you sound like you could be my wife!<p>Thanks for the wonderful thread. I am the WS in our marriage and our relationship had degraded to the point it had precisely because she ALWAYS had to be right and I began to knuckle under in the "Yes dear, you are right" mode. She realizes today that she would relentlessly pursue even the most trivial of issues (Was that car blue or purple?) until I stated agreement. To her, every discussion became a battle. She had to win, no matter how much resentment was created in the process.<p>As far as the BS not being able to affect whether the affair ends, my own experience says, yes, you can. <p>I asked my wife, point blank, if she was willing to make some changes if I left the OW to work on my marriage. Her answer to that question was critical. If she had even hinted that she wasn't willing to work on herself, I would have left without ever looking back.<p>Fortunately for both of us, she has made the changes necessary for us to love each other again. I, too, have had to learn not to always "suck it up" when I'm tired of dealing with an issue. We are learning that we don't always have to see things the same way in order for us to love each other.<p>I still see a lot of "eye for an eye" here...statements like "If I have to deal with the hurt of the affair, he/she will have to deal with my anger!" are precisely that.<p>I had to accept that I had hurt my wife badly and that I now had to help her deal with it. She never made me feel like she was trying to "make me hurt like she did".<p>Had my wife shown me some of what I'm seeing here, our marriage would not be recovering. We would be planning our divorce instead of our 20th anniversary.<p>Don't anyone even TRY to say my wife must've been a doormat! She changed what I would've previously though "unchangable". I have been so over-the-top impressed by her that I can't even imagine wanting be with anyone else.<p>Does she respect me today? I think we both have MORE respect for each other because we've both shown each other amazing things.<p>Does she TRUST me today? Nope...not one whit. But who could blame her? I think that will take time to rebuild, and I think the bondo will always show somewhat. <p>You know the real irony? When she stopped trying to be right...stopped trying to win...that's when SHE got what she wanted. SHE DID WIN!!!!<p>Low

Thanks for bumping up this thread. I really needed to read this!!!!<p>I spent almost my entire marriage fighting and "being right", always trying to prove my point. After fighting and arguing and disagreeing for years, I gave up. <p>A couple of weeks ago, Oprah had Dr. Phil on, talking about "competing couples". They had friends, sisters, and couples on the show. It was extremely eye opening!!! He said when you compete with your spouse (or anyone else for that matter), that you make that person your opponent. I'll stick to the marriage scenario, since this is the MB site...however you can apply it to other relationships. <p>When you view your spouse as an opponent, you are essentially viewing them as the "enemy". When you compete...the other person is the one you want to win against - you want them to lose and you want to win. In marriage, when you view your spouse as the enemy/opponent, they become your adversary. You do not want to be close and intimate with the adversary - that would go against every instinct we have to protect ourselves. So....we fight, bicker, try to prove our point to win, which when we do, makes our spouse the loser, the enemy, the adversary. Is this how we should treat someone that we love? Of course not. <p>So....we can compete, fight, argue, win.....but it doesn't make a very good setting/environment for a loving, open, mutually "winning" relationship.<p>This thread really helped to re-inforce those concepts for me. Thanks again!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

BR and others, i have a question that is perplexing me. I do want to be able to accept my FWH for who/what he is, but what if what he is/continues to do are hurtful to me now, in the present? I'm not talking about what happened before recovery started, but rather the ongoing struggles with things that he does that "trigger" a painful reaction in me due to what happened in the past? I'll give a short example: A woman we know (slightly) came up to him this weekend, hugged him and continued to hold his hands while she told him that she had been praying for him, thinking of his family, etc. ( He's recently out of rehab, left his practice. People love him.) Things of that nature, in front of me but out of earshot. That was a terrible trigger, not who she was, but what she represented to me (OW) and the fact that he did not step away from her or move his hands away or even motion me over to them. He says he is a friendly person, a hugger and resents me wanting him to change this. I, as the BS view this as a hurtful behavior now. How do we resolve this? Am I supposed to accept that he may be getting hugs from women even tho this hurts me? Am I supposed to accept this because thats the way he is? I'm not being sarcastic, I am confused as to how to apply this in my personal situation. I genuinely want to know how this concept works for me. I would appreciate any help. I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but do feel like this is a question that could serve as an example to those of us who need something a bit more concrete from which to work on. Thanks, C