I feel there is a difference between accepting someone for who they are and allowing emotional, verbal and/or physical abuse and disrespectful behaviour from them. Some things you can't simply let slide and maintain your own self respect and dignity at the same time IMO. How much somebody will tolerate is very individual. I find it very ironic that when someone decides to stand up for themselves and refuses to be controlled anymore, they are accused of being controlling.<p>firefly10 ,
I can relate to what you're going through and we have a couple things in common as my H is getting treatment for an addiction as well.<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: roseyhue37 ]</p>

roseyhue, thanks for responding about this. I agree, what a person will/will not tolerate is very individual. I wonder if we spouses that are dealing with more issues than just A;s have it any harder than others?
I guess I wonder how this all fits in with disrespectful judgements and imposing my value system on him. Is it a disrespectful judgement on my part to impose my moral value system on him by asking him to choose to possibly offend someone else (who shouldn't matter so much anyway) over hurting me? Thats the way I see it, at this point he owuld rather hurt me than somehow "reject" someone else.
I have dropped the matter for now, because as a friend of mine told me today," if the care is there, he will do it. If its not then he won't. And thats what you need to know anyway. No point in continuing to beat him over the head with it." And she's right, so today I am REALLY trying hard to detach and accept. Boy, is that tough sometimes. Anyone else out there that might care to help out with applying this concept to a practical situation? C

Control is a big issue for me right now. I know that that was a major reason why my husband left. I was trying to take over his life. I confirmed that with him on the weekend. I've done it in many areas of my life, not just the marriage. If anyone knows of any website/books dealing with this I'd be glad if they could post the link on the forum.<p>Another thing my H told me on the weekend is that he won't live with someone who has sex once a month. I have to respect that and if I love him I will do what I can to change.<p>This dosen't mean he can come back and I'll do all the changing. When he is out of fog and commits to our marriage I will make it very clear what I need from him (someone who can contribute to making sex more interesting and he needs to drop the control thing too). Also the 'no contact' will be important - I can't live with three in a marriage.<p>I found when I let go of him I actually feel better - less stress. Its hard, but you have to realise its their life and their decision. I didn't cause the affair, but I can see how my actions led to its 'birth'. Its been hard work, but I'm trying really hard and I think I'm getting it.<p>I admit I've been pretty disrespectful of H and other WS at times. Its was out of anger and hurt. That will be something I need to think about I guess, because it dosen't make me feel so good after I've done it, and its hard to plan A/love someone and hate them at the same time.

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seahorse... try some sort of codependents anonymous group... or even alanon if drinking is any sort of issue... it does wonders.. <p>do you have the langauge of letting go?<p>I too was very controlling.. not really what I wanted.. but since my h was so out of control with alcohol and irresponsibility.. going hand in hand... I had him on track and plan in order to make all of our lives work.. <p>unfortunately he did not want me controlling his life... also the a birthed from a major downtime in my life... I had gained 40 pounds and had a chronic back injury..> I am now recovering and regaining myself... I was overly dosed on pain pills for quite a while and lost me ... quite a bit... h did not like drugged otu me... funny, huh? but that was not all... small kids... etc.. stress.. and his work load.. lots of stuff... <p>but we do have to let go... afterall who wants to be married to someone who doesnt want to be in the marriage? right? hugs to all of you... great topic for me and others too, I'm sure...<p>Hugs, HOney

Seahorse;<p>These books were recommended by others on the boards. I ordered them but have not read them yet.<p>Codependents' Guide to the Twelve Steps: How to Find the Right Program for You & Apply Each of the Twelve Steps to Your Own Issues
- Melody Beattie<p>Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others & Start Caring for Yourself
- Melody Beattie<p>You can get them at great prices at half.com

I've read codependent no more.. and i also have the book... that I highly recommend -<p>The 12 Steps for Codependents! It helps me work on me... what a wonderful book...<p>focus on one step at a time and you will start to improve YOUR life and get inner peace and happiness-<p>-<p>Last night I was reorganiaing my bedroom and putting things away and taking care of me... after shopping for me... and thinking WOW... I really have been neglecting myself!<p>I let myself get so wrapped up in my H and what he needs instead of what I need... <p>Take care of you and surrender your spouse to God.<p>Step one.. let go and let God... that means really and t ruly letting go of your spouse and of things out of your control... it is amazing what God can do for you.<p>Hugs and luck to you .. have a happy day for you!<p>Honey

Hiya All,<p>Well I think we all have control issues in our lives. Mostly habits we acquired during the process of growing up and we aren't even aware. None of us are perfect that's for sure.<p>Me, I want to be right with God and in my walk with his will but I also want to be married. Get past this and having a happy-thriving marraige. I just know that can't be until WH ends "A", has time to withdraw and re-comitts to ur marriage.<p>So I am using this time to read everything I can get my hands on grow me to be a better person.<p>I am really not interested in details of WH affair. If and when this turns around, I will listen if he wants to talk about "A" but i won't ask about the details. I am more interested in what he feels he was lacking. I am more concerned with meeting those needs once he comes out of the fog. More focused on the future through mistakes learn during this "nightmare". As far as forgiveness? I have already forgiven him, forget, I never will but I refuse to "dwell" on the memories. Can't work on meeting those needs now as he has basically cut himself off from me, family and friends and gone into hiding per to speak. I believe he will reach eventually and I will be armed with knowledge from books here at MB, other's recommended by you guys/gals and of course last but certainly not least my "FAITH IN GOD". I have already seen some big changes in my attitude or rather way's of looking at things just in the last month. Perception, wow that is a tricky one.<p>Hey? Do you all recommend these books?<p>Torn Asunder
Tough love
How to save your marriage alone

Later,<p>BA

^

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>Control is a big issue for me right now. I know that that was a major reason why my husband left. I was trying to take over his life. I confirmed that with him on the weekend. I've done it in many areas of my life, not just the marriage. If anyone knows of any website/books dealing with this I'd be glad if they could post the link on the forum. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>SH;
The Codependent books by "Melody Beattie"
were recommended to me here for that:<p>"Codependents' Guide to the Twelve Steps: How to Find the Right Program for You & Apply Each of the Twelve Steps to Your Own Issues"<p>and <p>"Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others & Start Caring for Yourself "

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by firefly10:
<strong>roseyhue, thanks for responding about this. I agree, what a person will/will not tolerate is very individual. I wonder if we spouses that are dealing with more issues than just A;s have it any harder than others?
I guess I wonder how this all fits in with disrespectful judgements and imposing my value system on him. Is it a disrespectful judgement on my part to impose my moral value system on him by asking him to choose to possibly offend someone else (who shouldn't matter so much anyway) over hurting me? Thats the way I see it, at this point he owuld rather hurt me than somehow "reject" someone else.
I have dropped the matter for now, because as a friend of mine told me today," if the care is there, he will do it. If its not then he won't. And thats what you need to know anyway. No point in continuing to beat him over the head with it." And she's right, so today I am REALLY trying hard to detach and accept. Boy, is that tough sometimes. Anyone else out there that might care to help out with applying this concept to a practical situation? C</strong><hr></blockquote><p>FF;
I think we have to get over the apparent "choice" the WS is making by preferring to "offend, hurt, disrespect" us over the OP. It sure seems like it should be an easy choice: "You are hurting me, your H/W, why can't you just hurt the OP, and stop hurting me?". But it's not as simple as that.<p>I think once we, the BSs, realize that it's not that clear-cut a choice, we can live with it easier. It is far more complex than that.<p>Our understanding and acceptance of the feelings our WSs have for the OP, and their emotional attachment, their withdrawl, etc. and our willingness to support and comfort them during this difficult time is one of the most positive things that can happen between spouses when an A is present. I think it allows us to in a sense "bury" the "old" relationship (since it IS dead, after the A, unless we want to be exposed to more of the same.) and begin to create the "new" relationship that will govern the post-A Marriage.<p>I know that when I first found out about the A, all I wanted was for my W to end it, right then and there. that's it! But I've come to realize it is not that simple, and I've come to accept that. Believe me, it makes it much easier to deal with this pain, and it opens the road to rebuilding much more than a cold "I don't care what you feel; end it now" approach.

Hiya Honey and Spacecase, thanks for recommending those books - I'll look for them at my library and if not buy a copy. <p>I am very much a codependent - I can see it now that I very much depended on H to make me happy. He accepted this from me (maybe grudgingly) and must have felt like a huge failure when I was constantly unhappy. I am finding what make me happy now - SCUBA diving, sewing, dancing, just 'going with the flow', and most importantly friends.<p>I really think this is a huge thing for me to recognise it, because I've at least taken the first step to working on it, and accepting the responsibility for my life and my feelings.<p>I am realising that even if H comes out of the fog, he may not want to work on our marriage, or he may not want to be married to me anymore. I think that this is why Plan A is so important and why we BS have to 'get' that it is for us to work on issues while we have the chance for feedback from our WS. But plan A does not guarantee you will get your WS back, just that you will gain control over you.<p>If H does chose not to work on the M I will have to accept it and realise that it is his life and he can do what he wants. I even take this view now, although fall backward occassionally. <p>Thanks again guys. I really appreciate this support network, you have all got me through some of the lowest points in my life.

I don't post much but I lurk all the time. I hope all BSs will at least give BRs post some thought. I am the WS. I am the one who ended my 2 yr long affair. I did not end it because the OM turned out to be a jerk, or because the "fog" lifted or because I no longer felt "in love" with him. I ended it because I did still feel some love for my H, I had two young children and I wanted to keep our family intact. My H knew of the A and when I ended it I told him that I was completely responsible for it, that he was not to blame for any part of it. I begged forgiveness and began my long journey of restitution. This was all before I had ever even heard of this site. I did not even know what an EN was. We have been in recovery for over a year now and needless to say I have exactly the same marriage that I had before the A. After I found this site I understood about ENs and why my A had become a possability. I printed out all the info from here and all the questionaires which my H and I both read and did. I bought a few books from this site which my H has not even looked at. At first he would try sporadically to fill my ENs but even that is fading with time. I know that even after reading all this material that he still feels that he played no part in any of this. His love bank withdrawls far outnumber his deposits all the time. I am still trying. I've told him numerous times that I don't want the marriage we had, I want a much better one but it falls on deaf ears. I have had no intentional contact with the OM for over a year but we do live in a small town and we run into each other once in a while. We don't speak but the look in his eyes tells me all I have to do is say the word and he'd be back. He is single.
The WS certainly has to be remorseful for their actions and try to make restitutuions for the A but the BS can not sit back and expect them to do all the work in making their M a stronger and better one because they don't think they played as big a part in the problems. They can't place their efforts on a scale to see who needs to carry the load. It should be equal. I've read in other posts where the attitude of the BS spouse is "when I say jump the WS better say how high". I think these are the ones who would rather be right than be married. I hope they know that they are playing with fire.

Kellie;
Statistically, at least, your case is an anomaly. In most cases, it is the BS who takes the initiative to rebuild a broken M. You are to be commended for that. And especially for realizing you wanted your M and doing what needed to be done to save it.<p>However, you are in the same situation any BS would be in trying to rebuild without the cooperation of the other party, and that is a difficult position to be in, but it is the norm nonetheless.<p>I believe it would be very beneficial for you if you were able to get your H to enter IC or MC; it would appear he does not want to face the reality of what happened, and it may even be that he has something to hide of his own. This is, of course, pure speculation on my part as I know nothing of your story beyond what you've said here, but I do know this; both sides of a M affected by an A have to work together at some point, it won't be from the start usually, but it has to get there.<p>Have you tried to get him to fill in an ENQ? Have you filled one in for him? Maybe that could get him started...keep trying, though...there will be others here, I'm sure, with more suggestions.

Lets see if I can reply to some of these responses even though some of them are old. <p>Daisy ~
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My problem is that I feel that if given the INFORMED choice I would have chosen someone who dealt with life`s problems in a different way. I understand that I cannot change my H, he is who he is and has the RIGHT to be who he is. But what happens if the person who your spouse is is not someone who you would choose to be with?<hr></blockquote><p>Well, I feel the same way too [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My H didn't hide who he was, but, there was just alot of misunderstanding with both of us about who we were.<p>Yes, I didn't make an informed choice and neither did he. <p>And there was definitely a point where I said: "This is not a person I choose to be married to anymore."<p>My husband moved out - and 2 weeks later I discovered I was pregnant. I screamed at God, cried, begged God, yelled at God, threw temper tantrums...when that didn't work, I did it to my husband. That didn't work either.<p>I had to figure out that I couldn't change reality - no matter how badly my self-will wanted it.<p>When I stepped out of my self-will and denial, into honesty and reality - then I was able to stop playing the victim. I had to accept that my husband was who he was, not who I wanted him to be, and that my demands and my "rightness" couldn't change it. That's when I found myself with the power to walk away.<p>My situation did end in reconciliation - but honestly, it could have ended in divorce, and I was OK with that. Because I had really come to terms with the idea that I could not live with the reality of who my husband was. <p>Along the way, I found out that I was disgusted with the reality of who *I* was. When I focused on changing the things I could - ie, ME - then my husband decided to change himself into someone that I could live with.<p>There's no guarantee that practicing acceptance and letting go of the need to be right will fix your marriage. I can guarantee that it WILL fix you though. <p>LowOrbit ~
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As far as the BS not being able to affect whether the affair ends, my own experience says, yes, you can. <p>I asked my wife, point blank, if she was willing to make some changes if I left the OW to work on my marriage. Her answer to that question was critical. If she had even hinted that she wasn't willing to work on herself, I would have left without ever looking back.<hr></blockquote><p>Well when I started this thread, I was only a few weeks into recovery. Now I've got 11 months under my belt [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I am glad you wrote this - because I want to clarify this a bit, but I agree.<p>In my situation, and I think in many situations, there is a point where the affair hits a low, and the WS does look around, at a crossroads, and makes a decision to either continue with the OP or to return to the marriage. Most books I've read on the subject do say that the WS does try to return at some point.<p>Here's where I think most BS make a mistake. They think that they can use Plan A to manipulate the WS into stopping the affair. It's MY point of view that there is absolutely NO WAY to get the WS to stop once the emotions are in full swing. HOWEVER, if there is a break in the fog, the crossroads if you will, if the BS has shown willingness to change - then I think the WS may be more inclined to choose the marriage.<p>In my case, if I had NOT changed, I would be divorced from my now formerly wayward husband. It doesn't matter that he was wrong in choosing an affair. That's not the point.<p>What was important was that *I* had participated in setting the stage for my husband's vulnerability. He was in a lot of pain, very lonely and had alot of unmet needs for many years before he decided to leave me for someone else.<p>YES, I was in the same situation - I was horribly hurt, horribly lonely and I had unmet needs too. <p>We were both responsible for his vulnerability, but I could only change MY part. And when I did, then my husband could look at me and feel HOPE that maybe we could have a different marriage if he made some effort to meet my changes partway. There was NO WAY he would have come back to the same marriage. Had he thought that coming back would mean more of the same - my self-righteous control of his life, my jugdements and selfish demands that he live according to my will...then he would have run and never come back.<p>Does it make what he did ok? No. Am I responsible for his affair? NO. But I am responsible for 50% of his vulnerability - and 50% responsible for his lonliness, hurt and unmet needs. Stepping off my moral highhorse let me get very realistic about ME.<p>But, there was NOTHING I could have done to stop his affair. I had to hang in there for a break in the clouds of fog, and wait for his honest reassessment of me and our situation. It's always possible that he wouldn't have chosen to do that. No BS can force a WS to honestly assess, reassess a marriage. But we can be darn sure that IF that is where the WS is emotionally, that we are the person that the WS can come home to.

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I LOVE what you had to say, Bramble Rose,
You need to be a MB counselor!!!
Would love to talk with you on the phone sometimes .
Please email me when you can.
KK
kayhilburn@yahoo.com

BR-

This was a wonderful thread to bring back!

It really hits home with me because I have reached a stalemate (mostly with myself) at this point. It was recommended to me by SH to file for divorce about three months ago. Although I have interviewed about a half dozen lawyers, I can't bring myself to do this. I've read some of your other threads, most notably the one about detaching with love, but I still have a lot of turmoil in dealing with this. I weigh what it would cost against what it would accomplish.

SH has suggested that I file for mental cruelty, adultery, and main custody of my daughters. How do I do that and yet put myself in a frame of mind like you suggest? If you don't mind my asking, what reasons did you file for? How did you have your H served?

This is a hard thread for me to read.

I am a BS and I understand points from both sides- those who agree with the original poster and those who don't. I do want to stay married, but I guess I want to be right too. Right about the affair, I mean. Well, that sounds almost silly because I think pretty much anyone would agree that a BS is right to think the WS affair was a wrong way to handle problems in the marriage. Anyone here who can argue with that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But what do you do to combat the resentfulness felt by Plan A-ing with no results? I feel like I am doing all the work. Well, I AM doing all the work. I know it can't be 50/50 all the time. But he had the affair, continues contact, I stay with him and am trying my best to be loving and accepting. It's hard not to feel used. Well, I AM being used! Argh.

He's apologized, but I know he doesn't get how much misery I am in. I agree with Bramble Rose that in a marriage fighting about who's right is ridiculous. It has to be give and take, comprimise. And accepting, for better or worse, the partner you married. I TOTALLY agree with that.

But AFTER an affair has taken place? I don't know, maybe I am still in a bitter place and don't understand, but I don't think I WANT to be with someone who doesn't understand or get what they did to cause me so much pain. And what's worse, I asked him during my plan A-ing what I can do to be a more loving wife and make him happy. He basically said that I didn't do anything that made him feel justified in having an affair and he is sorry, but he just has felt bored and the OW is exciting and represents something different. So I guess the point of my long ramble is I don't want to strongarm him into admiting he did a horrible thing (because I know it won't make me feel any better). But I do want him to realize this on his own, and I don't think I can live with him if he doesn't. Does that make me a "bad" person, or not accepting enough? I just don't think I can accept being in a marriage where we do not see eye to eye on a point as important as this! I also don't think I can live in a marriage where I am consistently the one doing most of the work towards trying to rebuild our relationship! It does seem like the BS does most of the work, and I want to know when my husband starts to do some work on healing ME? How on earth do you plan A without feeling like you want to hit your WS over the head for being so indifferent to your efforts and pain, when they are the one who cheated?? Help and advice from anyone, please!