Hi. I am struggling alot nowadays with control and the way my husband is acting. I really, really don't understand and if I really do need a kick in the butt, I know you would be the person to set me straight...<P>I'm just not sure if I'm the one that needs the kick or if I just wait to see if he kicks himself...<P>Here's some questions for you (may be long):<P>-I was extremely controlling when my H and I were first married. He told me about his concerns and I changed, I really did (this was about 6 years ago). He still says even though I am not that controlling, I am too controlling for him. I accept that and have been reading lots of books on how I can change this. HOWEVER, based on some of the comments my H has made to me, I really think the issue is that I don't trust him and have not trusted him for quite a few years (pretty much right when our problems started... hmmm).<P>He says that I control him because I was not giving him the freedom that he needed to be by himself and have private time that I didn't know about. I really think that I did this because I did not trust him, not out of some inherent need to control. Yes, I realize that I was trying to control him so that I did not have to deal with my mistrust, but I feel like if we fix the mistrust issues, and I deal with my control, that only then can we truly overcome this. Me just trying to not be controlling isn't going to cut it if I still mistrust him. What do you think?<P>-I have told my H many times that he is free to do what he wants. If that's OW, fine, go be with her, but leave me alone. If he doesn't know what he wants, fine, go figure it out, but leave me alone while he does it. I don't want to be part of that life because it hurts me too much. However, if he chooses to commit to me (and he has, but recently backed off again saying he doesn't know), then I want to make a plan to recover our marriage and to work together to build what we both want. No matter how I seem to phrase this or choose my words, he sees all of it as me trying to control him in some way/shape/form and that I am going too fast. He wants to just stay in his apartment, stay at college with OW (but claims nothing will happen cuz' he doesn't want her anymore), and he wants to date me. <P>So, my question to you is how do I draw the line w/o seeming controlling? I have told my husband what I need from him, but he just doesn't want to do it, or is not ready. So, fine, I accept his decision, I don't like it, but I accept it. But how do I get that point across w/o it seeming like I am trying to force him to come back?<P>Anytime I start to talk about divorce or seperation, or anything where I set boundaries (like visitation for the kids), it's immediately seen as me trying to control him and force him to come back. I can't seem to do the right thing, ever.<P>I mean, it's okay for me to accept his decision and yet not agree with it, right? Can't I tell him that I accept what he has decided to do but it is not something I think I can live with because it would cause me too much pain? How, on earth, do I say that w/o him getting all mad and saying I'm giving him an ultimatum? I mean, literally, I say it as nice as possible and try to explain why it's something I need for me, but it just gets lost in the translation somehow... <BR>

Hiya Hurt ~<P>I spent too much time replying on my other thread, and now I *have* to go to the bank and do several other important things. I want to let you know though that I saw your post and I'll reply later! I'm not ignoring you <P>((((((((((hugs)))))))))))

Whew, ok, boy what a day I've had!!!<P>I hate banks. I hate financial institutions and all their rules like....we don't take cash!<P>Ugh.<P>ANYWAY.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>-I was extremely controlling when my H and I were first married. He told me about his concerns and I changed, I really did (this was about 6 years ago). He still says even though I am not that controlling, I am too controlling for him. I accept that and have been reading lots of books on how I can change this. HOWEVER, based on some of the comments my H has made to me, I really think the issue is that I don't trust him and have not trusted him for quite a few years (pretty much right when our problems started... hmmm).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aaah well....trust, fear and control are all pretty well intertwined in many many people. It is in me thats for sure!<P>I don't trust my husband either. It's going to be a long time before that happens, and honestly, while I may forgive...forgetting is something different.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He says that I control him because I was not giving him the freedom that he needed to be by himself and have private time that I didn't know about. I really think that I did this because I did not trust him, not out of some inherent need to control. Yes, I realize that I was trying to control him so that I did not have to deal with my mistrust, but I feel like if we fix the mistrust issues, and I deal with my control, that only then can we truly overcome this. Me just trying to not be controlling isn't going to cut it if I still mistrust him. What do you think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I'll tell you what I think...but please realize, I'm not an expert. I'm just one person that is willing to share what worked for me.<P>My H and I had a similar standoff with our first failed recovery. I wanted information, I didn't want him to have privacy because I didn't trust him. He called it controlling.<P>I talked to Steve Harley about this. Steve told me that I could not demand those things from my H. That this stuff had to be offered willingly by my H.<P>Steve said that regardless of whether or not it really was controlling for me to set out my list of "needs" from my H in terms of regaining trust...that it would be perceived that way. And that even if my H conceded to my list of demands, that it would be a resentful capitulation, causing problems for us in the future.<P>HOWEVER. And its a big HOWEVER!! It became very clear, very quickly, that my H, even after being told by Steve what he needed to give me, wasn't going to do those things. And the reason was - my H wanted to come home, but he didn't actually want to do anything about changing himself. He really was trying to have his cake and eat it too. My H kept his privacy....he had to because I was SO UNREASONABLE as to expect that he wouldn't DATE other women while trying to reconcile with me.<P>Geez, aren't I just a controlling party pooper? <P>So going back to my thread about being RIGHT or MARRIED....<P>I had to examine my own life very hard. What did I want and what did I need?<P>I fortunately have an absolutely fantastic Al-Anon sponsor who worked with me very hard about my control issues, and helping me learn how to let go of my H.<P>Acceptance. I had to accept reality. The reality was that my H had no intention of providing voluntarily the things that I needed to recover my marriage.<P>My H wasn't serious about recovery. As Steve put it, my H didn't "get it".<P>At this point, I had been separated for 1 year - my H's affair had been going on since Nov 99. I was exhausted and I was DONE. <P>So I went back to my attorney and got my divorce rolling again. I had decided to recognize that my H was his own person, with his own values, and viewpoints. And that I had nothing in common, and didn't want that in my life.<P>So instead of demanding that he change to suit me, I had to decide what did *I* want. I let him go, and I drew a boundary for myself. I would not tolerate that stuff in my life. <P>Do you see the difference? We can decide what we want and what we will tolerate in our lives. But we can't change another person, nor demand that they do so to make us happy.<P>So a few months went by...he went back to the OW almost immediately where she proceeded to lovebust frequently <P>And suddenly my H, on the eve of our first court date, took a look at his life and became willing to do what I needed.<P>He volunteered all those things that Steve Harley had told him months before that he needed to do. It was his CHOICE, not my demand.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>-I have told my H many times that he is free to do what he wants. If that's OW, fine, go be with her, but leave me alone. If he doesn't know what he wants, fine, go figure it out, but leave me alone while he does it. I don't want to be part of that life because it hurts me too much. However, if he chooses to commit to me (and he has, but recently backed off again saying he doesn't know), then I want to make a plan to recover our marriage and to work together to build what we both want. No matter how I seem to phrase this or choose my words, he sees all of it as me trying to control him in some way/shape/form and that I am going too fast. He wants to just stay in his apartment, stay at college with OW (but claims nothing will happen cuz' he doesn't want her anymore), and he wants to date me.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is going to sound pretty harsh. But here it is.<P>What he wants right now doesn't matter.<P>He can "want" all those things. So what? That doesn't mean that he is entitled to do those things...unless you allow him to do it to you.<P>Here's the problem. You are demanding that HE change.<P>He doesn't want to change as long as you are telling him what to do. Childish, yes. Selfish, yes. BUT, thats who and what he is. So, now you are free of that resentment, this is who he is and how he is going to act. No more expecting over and over that he is going to do something different than what he is <P>I didn't tell my H to make a choice, me or her. I didn't tell him to make a choice about our marriage.<P>I looked at him and what he was and what he was doing, and made a choice for myself.<P>The way you are doing it is a sneaky way of trying to avoid responsibility for the demise of your marriage. As long as you make him responsible for your life, you can sit around wringing your hands, playing the victim.<P>What you are doing now is choosing to be a victim, choosing to give him power over your life, and then getting upset when he doesn't fix things the way you had it planned out.<P>Yep, its a form of control.<P>Hey H, you decide - now here's how it has to turn out! And then its HIS fault when he doesn't do it your way.<P>I'll say it again. Right now, what he wants doesn't matter. What do you want?<P>If you decide that you don't want to stay in this marriage, then you have the same right to do as you wish for yourself. You are perfectly free to do what is right for you. So what if he thinks that's controlling?<P>However, I suspect, that he doesn't believe you. You have a history of controlling, you are still controlling now...and so he sees your threats of divorce as simply manipulation. He's not going to take you seriously...why should he?<P>Don't make threats and don't talk about stuff that you are not willing to do.<P>Here's a great rule I learned in Al-Anon:<P><B>Mean what you say, say what you mean, but don't say it mean!</B><P>So don't talk about divorce if you aren't ready to do it. Don't talk about separation if you arent ready.<P>You need to be fully prepared to do what do what you say.<P>And please, don't take the things I said here to mean that I think you should separate or divorce. I'm simply sharing what I experienced, what I choose to do, and what happened for me. I don't know what is best for you in your situation.<P>You just need to decided, one day at a time, what you need or what you are ready to do. And if you aren't ready to separate or divorce, if you need for whatever reason, to continue doing what you are doing, that's ok. Just recognize that YOU are choosing to do it, and that you aren't a victim. <P>I hope this helps even a little bit.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hi BR. Yes, that does help me to understand... I do still have a few questions if you don't mind though.<P>The thing is, when I read your posts, I'm like, yep, that's the way I see it as well, I must be doing okay, but something in the way I write my responses leads you to believe otherwise, and I'm curious what that is because obviously this is also the way I must be communicating to my husband.<P>For instance, you write:<P>"The way you are doing it is a sneaky way of trying to avoid responsibility for the demise of your marriage. As long as you make him responsible for your life, you can sit around wringing your hands, playing the victim. What you are doing now is choosing to be a victim, choosing to give him power over your life, and then getting upset when he doesn't fix things the way you had it planned out."<P>What was it in my post that led you to believe this? I'm just curious. Within myself I have accepted the fact that I still have some control issues to work out and that they are fueled by my inability to trust my husband. This mistrust was around long before my husband ever had his affair (about 2 1/2 years) due to various reasons (some caused by me, some by him), so, it is definately a factor in the way my marriage was before the A and I do accept that this is a problem I need to deal with inside of me.<P>"Hey H, you decide - now here's how it has to turn out! And then its HIS fault when he doesn't do it your way."<P>What exactly is MY way? There's the MB way, which I try to promote, there's HIS way, but I have not even TALKED about my way. My way would be him crawling on his knees to come home, telling me many times over how sorry he is, how big a mistake he made, and that he was going to do everything in his power to make it up to me. But, now that is not very realistic, is it? I wouldn't even consider trying to get my way, cuz' that would be stupid.<P>So, is my way considered the MB way because I am the one that related it to him? Do I need to shutup and let a 3rd party tell my H what he needs to do for me? Then it will not be my way, it will be their way...??<P>I guess I am a bit confused... I am about to give my husband a list of things that I need from him in order to continue on with our marriage. If he chooses not to do these things, then I accept this. I don't like it, but I do accept it and I don't expect him to do anything different when I file for seperation because he can't give me what I need... Yeah, he might, great, maybe things can still work out, but I don't expect it, nor am I trying to force him to do something because I intend to file if he chooses not to meet my needs right now... I do it because I can no longer deal with him in this limbo state and I want to be away from him while he is "figuring out" what it is he wants in life. But, even still, my HOPE is that someday this will change and he will turn around and want to meet my needs and work on our marriage. I don't expect it, but I still hope. Do you think this makes me controlling somehow?<P>I like what you said about not threatening. I have not threatened my H at all. When I tell him something, I mean it. 4 weeks ago when I told him I needed to be seperated from him because he was driving me crazy with this limbo stuff and not knowing what he wanted, I meant it. The papers are ready to go. He chose to commit to me, I am not sure if it had anything to do with the seperation or not. But it was not an idle threat, I was ready...<P>I am ready again since he has recently renegged on his commitment to me. My choice is not to live in limboland anymore. I don't care what he chooses to do, I will not be in limboland anymore. Period. I will be happy either way.<P>Now, if he doesn't want to be seperated and he chooses to re-commit to me in order to avoid seperation. That's HIS choice, I did not force him to do it just because I filed (or was about to file). Wouldn't you agree? I don't know if I'd agree to take him back at that point. Probably, but maybe not. I don't know what I will feel at that point in time.<P>Thank you for your comments, they do help me alot to clarify things in my head. <P>HbH

The reason why you think you are getting it, and your H is still calling you controlling is twofold.<P>One, you are controlling but its a very subtle thing that takes a bit of work to understand.<P>Two, WSs do things like wail "controlling" when there are consequences to their actions. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The thing is, when I read your posts, I'm like, yep, that's the way I see it as well, I must be doing okay, but something in the way I write my responses leads you to believe otherwise, and I'm curious what that is because obviously this is also the way I must be communicating to my husband.<P>For instance, you write:<P>"The way you are doing it is a sneaky way of trying to avoid responsibility for the demise of your marriage. As long as you make him responsible for your life, you can sit around wringing your hands, playing the victim. What you are doing now is choosing to be a victim, choosing to give him power over your life, and then getting upset when he doesn't fix things the way you had it planned out."<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok, let me explain further:<P>You said earlier: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have told my H many times that he is free to do what he wants. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are giving him permission...which implies that you have the authority (control) to say yes or no. He doesn't need or have to ask permission. When you tell him that he is free, its insulting. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If that's OW, fine, go be with her, but leave me alone. If he doesn't know what he wants, fine, go figure it out, but leave me alone while he does it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are making a selfish demand - telling him to make a decision. You don't like your life so you are telling HIM to take action. That's control. His actions are not acceptable to you, so you are demanding that HE change, that HE make a decision, that HE do something.<P>When instead....you should be the one changing and taking action. <P>Ultimatums is a form of control. I'm divorcing you if you dont do XYZ....<P>It's a selfish demand, and it thrusts the responsibilty for the outcome on the other party. <P>I definitely was guilty of doing that - I'd say: If you don't do XYZ, then I am goin to do ABC!!!<P>And I got to feel smug and self righteous. It was all his fault and I didn't have to shoulder the responsiblity because HE was forced to choose.<P>I didn't want the responsiblity of choosing to end my marriage. As long as I made demands and ultimatiums and issued lists about what I needed him to do for me to stay married--and he didn't do it, then it was HIS fault I had to file for divorce.<P>I had to let go and stop making those demands. I had to accept the reality that my H was doing what he was doing, and nothing I could do or say would change it. THEN, I shouldered responsiblity by deciding what I was going to do about it....rather than decide what I thought HE should do about it.<P>Do you see the difference?<P>This June, my H came to me and said: "Wait, I don't want to be divorced. I want to be with my children every day and I don't want you all to move to VA, and to keep that from happening, I want to learn to be your husband. What do you need? I am willing to do the MBs plan, I am willing to do what it takes to prove to you that I am not lying..."<P>Ok, well thats the short sweet version, but anyway, you get the drift. <P>He chose, he volunteered. I didn't get to make demands.<P>He asked, I answered. He chose to do those things.<P>Clearly, he understood that without those things, I would continue with the divorce. But it was HIS idea, not my demands this time.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No matter how I seem to phrase this or choose my words, he sees all of it as me trying to control him in some way/shape/form and that I am going too fast. He wants to just stay in his apartment, stay at college with OW (but claims nothing will happen cuz' he doesn't want her anymore), and he wants to date me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As I said before, ultimatiums will be perceived as control attempts. And they are. But understandable ones for sure!!<P>But some of this is simply in MY opinion, your H's whining about consequences. See, he discovered a great tool. You are very worried about being controlling. So he knows he can trot that accusation out and get you to back down on your own choices.<P>As long as you are chosing and acting for YOU, and not demanding actions from him, you aren't controlling. <P>It just happens to suck that when one cheats, one's spouse does things like..oh...file for divorce.<P>So life and the consequences of the stuff HE's chosen is getting ready to slap him on the rear. Oh well!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am about to give my husband a list of things that I need from him in order to continue on with our marriage. If he chooses not to do these things, then I accept this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>THIS is what I mean about YOUR way. <P>You are making a selfish demand that he make a choice. Your plan is that he choose to do what you want him to, or you will do something else. And you make him responsible for it because you made him choose.<P>Ok, I'm wondering how else I can say this that you will understand.<P>What are you choosing to do for you?<P>You see, when I discovered that my H was dating while we were in counseling....I went to Steve H. I said, Steve, I caught my H red handed. This has been going on the whole time we've been meeting with you. I'm going to give my H my list of things he has to do for me to stay in this marriage. And Steve told me I couldn't do that because it was controlling. I didnt get it at first.<P>I had to look at it from MY side. What did I want, what did I need? What was I willing to accept and tolerate. What was the reality? At that point, my H was a man who was lying and cheatin. Could I live with a liar and cheater in my life?<P>The answer was no.<P>So instead of saying: H, change, I cant stand you, you are evil, bad, and I refuse to be married to you like this....<P>I said: I will no longer tolerate lies and betrayal. I am divorcing you.<P>Done. No demands that HE do anything. I did it all, for me. With no expectations of anything but exactly what I said I was goin to do. I didn't say it to force him to capitulate and give in to my wants. I said it because I didn't want that in my life and that was it.<P>Is that clearer at all?<P><BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

BR, I think I get it finally - thank you. <P>Didn't you say though that Steve gave your H a list of things he needed to do for you (or that you gave him the list) in order to help rebuild your trust? Was your point that it didn't work? I thought that it was a good thing when I first read it... But, perhaps your point was that it was not because it didn't work...<P>This is tough because my counselor is the one that said to write up the list and then if my H did not choose to meet my needs that I needed to do what was best for me. Which I chose to be seperation... Hmm...<P>But I see your point. I pretty much can't give him any type of list w/o it appearing controlling. But then if he chooses to work on the marriage, how does he know what I need from him? Is it okay then for me to make up a list of the things I would like from him to move forward?<P>So then I guess my big problem is I have no clue what is going on. If I knew for sure that my H did not want me or to work on the marriage, then I'd be outta here (or even if I knew for sure he was stuck in limboland, it's only been 2 days since his transgression). Right now, however, he's in his depressed state and has said he doesn't know what he wants (de-committed to me), but I'm not sure if that's what he really means or if it's just because of his current mood swing (have to lean towards the latter on that one). (My H and what is inside his head is a whole other story).<P>hmmm...<P>So, when I decide that I can't live the way things are and that I'm no longer willing to wait, then when I get the seperation I would not be controlling him. And no matter what he offered me, I probably would not give in to him because I was already past that point and would just want to be seperated... Is that about right? And I would know because I would want to say "I'm getting a seperation because I can't live like this anymore." and not explain anything else (because it wouldn't matter)...<P>And I can't communicate my needs right now because he's not even committed and it is just taken as demands. But, if he gets committed, then I can communicate this to him and see if he follows through with actions, but not have any type of seperation tied into that aspect of it if he chooses later not to meet my needs.<P>The seperation is seperate and is something I do once I am just totally fedup and don't want to try anymore...<P>Did I get it finally?<P>One more thing, given that my counselor recommended this list. I'm wondering if it would be okay for me to give him the list, explain to him that these are the things I feel that I would need from him if we are ever to work on the relationship, but I accept if his decision is that he does not know or that he does not want to. And I don't tie anything else to it or keep it in my head that I will seperate if he chooses not to do these things...<P>Or do I just let go and if he is ever ready to reconcile then HE will ask ME what he can do (he has done this before mind you, which is one of the reasons it is so tough NOT to give the list, he did ask for it, but given his current state of mind, it doesn't matter much now anyway).<P>So, I guess my only problem with this then is that it seems like as long as I WANT to work on my marriage and stay married to this man, then I must live with his sh*t and not set boundaries for myself... It's not until I give up entirely that I am allowed this benefit, because otherwise I would be controlling him...<P>So, I think I get it, but it doesn't help me get a plan for myself... At least with the list, I had a plan to follow and I liked that. Now, it's like I just wait around until I either get fedup with my husband or he chooses to re-commit to me...<P>I mean, there's NOTHING I can do in the meantime until he does make a decision. Other than work on myself and wait for the day I give up and file for a seperation... I choose to live in limboland ONLY because I do NOT choose to file for divorce yet. I do not think there is any real place for me in between... Yet, this is directly tied to my husband and the choices he makes, so I am yet confused again...<P>I am not supposed to wait for him, yet, how can I make choices for myself when I don't know what he is doing or if he will re-commit to me? Do I just assume that he will not and live my life "as it" he hasn't? That's tough because he's constantly DOING things that makes me believe he is committed even though he claims not to be. So, then I would either have to ignore these completely or ask him not to do them... Tough.<P>Thanks again.<P>Hmmm...<BR>HbH

Up to the top for BR when she gets a chance...

Up again. I really feel like I'm learning alot from you BR, and I don't want to stop now...<P>FYI, I found out that my H is not committed right now, he is back in limboland for sure. I have decided I can't live like this. I am going to tell him my decision next time we talk (hopefully tonight). I just hope I can do it without it seeming like a threat or like I am trying to control him.<P>My thought is that I will just say:<P>I am so sorry, but I cannot continue to live in limbo any longer. That is what I meant the other day when I left you the message that said "You win". I don't have the strength to continue living like this. I have chosen to go ahead with the seperation. I hope you can also accept my choice. It is something I need to do for me so that I can go on with my life. <P>And if he tries to talk me out of it or promises anything, I'll just say:<P>I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. I need to see actions, not words. Here is the list my counselor and I worked on the other day. It explains alot of the things that would help me begin to re-gain trust in you and rebuild our marriage. If you decide that is what you want to, then I guess this is a good place to start. In the meantime, I need to do what is right for me. <P>I re-read that and it doesn't seem controlling at all to me. I hope you will agree that I have chosen my words to correctly portray how I feel this time...<P>HbH

sounds good to me, when I started it, I was thinking oh sure, I will run across a you word somewhere...(am I being radically honest or what, I just love that policy)....but nope, nothing about him or his contribution, just what hbh wants....so looks good in my book (if that is worth anything). <P>btw thx for your nice comments about me elsewhere. I really am not pond scum, although I may cast a greeinsh glow sometimes.

Thanks SnL. It is worth something, now I just hope I can pull it off. Should be pretty easy since I feel really different on the inside. My husband is really not a horrible, cruel person. Well, okay, he is now, but HE NEVER USED TO BE!! All of the bad stuff, all of it, happened the last 3 years of our lives. (3 out of 10). Even when I think back to the emotional abuse and everything else, it wasn't there, hiding it's ugly face in one way/shape/form. And I know my husband does not like this person that he has become one bit. Which just makes it all the more difficult to let go. But, it's time. I can't live like this anymore. I just wanted to be sure I did it in a non-controlling way. My way of dealing with his changes these past 3 years was to try and control him, I don't want to be like that anymore.(I relapsed a bit back to the person I was at the beginning of our marriage - I didn't like that person...).<P>I don't think it will be so bad. I don't love my husband anymore, and I know I can find someone else if things don't work out (not for a long time though). I just don't like what it does to my kids and I don't like feeling like I have given up, or the stereotype that goes along with being divorced, should it come to that... I'll be the only one in my family that's divorced. But, I guess since I was the first one to go to college, the two cancel out, right? And I know God would forgive me given everything I have been through and how hard I have tried to save my marriage. <P>But, I digress...<P>And I meant every word I said in the other thread, especially the part about you and Thinker many months from now... <P>Interested in another game of scrabble or something tonight? Can Thinker join us? We'll only need one more to play hearts, right? <P>HbH

Sounds like you are starting to get it <P>Sorry it took so long to get back...my H just took vacation time and we are getting ready to take our kids to the beach for the last week of the summer.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Didn't you say though that Steve gave your H a list of things he needed to do for you (or that you gave him the list) in order to help rebuild your trust? Was your point that it didn't work? I thought that it was a good thing when I first read it... But, perhaps your point was that it was not because it didn't work...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My point was that I couldn't go to my H on my OWN initiative and ask that he do the things on my list.<P><BR>When my H asked me, "What do I need to do to rebuild your trust?" I was able to tell him what I expected. BUT NOT BEFORE <P>When we were in counseling with Steve, my H was told by Steve that if he wanted to stay married there were things he would have to do for his wife. My H wasn't interested in being married right then, he was busy dating a bunch of women on the side.<P>But the suggestions coming from Steve were NOT coming from me per se. An outside person making suggestions about a plan for rebuilding a marriage is much different than me making demands of my spouse.<P>So when my H was ready to volunteer, I could tell him because he asked.<P>Does that make better sense?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I see your point. I pretty much can't give him any type of list w/o it appearing controlling. But then if he chooses to work on the marriage, how does he know what I need from him? Is it okay then for me to make up a list of the things I would like from him to move forward?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can understand making up your list. You need to know what you want and need from a relationship anyway. If he is interested in working on the marraige with you, then he'll ASK you what do you need?<P>Right now, it seems to me from your posts, that your H hasn't even decided if he wants to be married. Telling him what he needs to do to move "forward" isn't going to matter a hill of beans.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, when I decide that I can't live the way things are and that I'm no longer willing to wait, then when I get the seperation I would not be controlling him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, if you are doing it for YOU, and not to manipulate a desired reaction from HIM to achieve a particular outcome.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And no matter what he offered me, I probably would not give in to him because I was already past that point and would just want to be seperated... Is that about right?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, yes and no. I mean....if he came to you and started doing, really doing, what it took, you might change your mind...right? Nothing wrong with that.<P>It would be better to think of it like this: If you separate, and he walks away and shrugs....are you willing to accept that outcome?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And I would know because I would want to say "I'm getting a seperation because I can't live like this anymore." and not explain anything else (because it wouldn't matter)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And I can't communicate my needs right now because he's not even committed and it is just taken as demands. But, if he gets committed, then I can communicate this to him and see if he follows through with actions, but not have any type of seperation tied into that aspect of it if he chooses later not to meet my needs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. You can't say DO THIS OR IM LEAVING. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The seperation is seperate and is something I do once I am just totally fedup and don't want to try anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, maybe you still want to try, but you can't do it in proximity with him on a daily basis.<P>I never ever wanted not to try with my H. It was just that I couldn't live with him, the coldness, the cruelty, the lies, the neglect....I asked him to go get himself fixed and then come home again. Even when I went for a divorce..I didnt WANT to be divorced. But I was also very clear that filing for divorce meant that he could walk away and never come back.<P>And because I had learned to accept that he was who he was and stopped expecting him to change...I understood that divorce would be the best thing for me. And I was at peace.<P>In my case...once I had learned those lessons and taken those steps, THEN my H decided that he wanted to change.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, I guess my only problem with this then is that it seems like as long as I WANT to work on my marriage and stay married to this man, then I must live with his sh*t and not set boundaries for myself... It's not until I give up entirely that I am allowed this benefit, because otherwise I would be controlling him...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok, this is where we get to talk about choices and victimhood.<P>You do NOT <B>have</B> to live with his sh*t. You are CHOOSING to live with this sh*t. This is your choice and so you are NOT a victim.<P>Why can't you set boundaries for yourself? Taking care of you isn't limited to separation and divorce.<P>You are mixing up "letting go of control" with "giving up".<P>They aren't the same.<P>As I said earlier....I always wanted to work on my marriage. I never "gave up". I just simply recognized that my H didn't want to work, and so I couldn't make him, and so there was nothing to do but take care of me.<P>And I needed separation from his sh*t.<P>Some of taking care of myself has involved things like counseling for myself, Al-Anon meetings, long chats with friends, family and my sponsor. Doing things that made me feel good, filling my own needs instead of waiting for my H to fill them.<P>I simply took responsiblity for myself and my life and my choices.<P>As long as I stayed in my victimhood mentality, then I was trapped. As long as I put the responsiblity for my life in my H's hands,I sat around whining, moaning, crying and wringing my hands because the result was never what I wanted, and it was all HIS fault. I gave the power over my life into the hands of an untrustworthy person. How sick was that?<P>When I started taking responsiblity, I couldn't sit around crying and moaning about what he was doing. I started figuring out what I was doing <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, I think I get it, but it doesn't help me get a plan for myself... At least with the list, I had a plan to follow and I liked that. Now, it's like I just wait around until I either get fedup with my husband or he chooses to re-commit to me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's not an either or situation.<P>Make a plan and live it. So for today your plan doesn't involve separation. But surely your life has more in it than just your H and your unresolved marriage...right?<P>What is the plan for TODAY?<P>You don't have to have it all figured and planned out days and years in advance.<P>Just plan today. What do you need to do to live today?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am not supposed to wait for him, yet, how can I make choices for myself when I don't know what he is doing or if he will re-commit to me? Do I just assume that he will not and live my life "as it" he hasn't? That's tough because he's constantly DOING things that makes me believe he is committed even though he claims not to be. So, then I would either have to ignore these completely or ask him not to do them... Tough.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not supposed to wait for him? Where was that said? Not by me and not by the Harleys!!<P>If you want to wait for him, by all means, do so. <P>I'm simply pointing out that it is a choice. You are NOT a victim. YOU and you alone are responsible and in control of your life.<P>See, it seems to me that right now you want to force a solution, and you want the answers now.<P>How about just focusing on today?<P>For today your H is uncommitted. So for today you are not working on your marriage.<P>So for today, what should you be doing for you?<P>Awareness of a problem usually leads to action. Unfortunately, I've discovered in my life that when I skip the all important acceptance part before acting, that my actions make the situation worse. Its called a forced solution.<P>Maybe just living one day at a time, accepting reality one day at a time will give you the peace you need to truly choose for yourself.<P>In my opinion, I don't think you are ready to separate. There's still lessons to be learned here. But thats ONLY my opinion. ONLY you can choose for you and what I think ulitimately doesn't matter, because YOU are the only one who really lives by your decisions.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>