Why Shouldn't I throw in the Flag? Why can't I give up and say "you win, your a better person who deserves the best woman and I'm not her.I will never be good enough cause I have made one of the worst mistakes known to mankind."<BR>I feel that I am not worthy, that I will never ever be able to make it up to me H. Everyday he looks at me and the expression on his face is so sad. To me it looks like disgust, like how could you and why. I'm tired of feeling like a peice of poop. <BR>I asked him last night " why should we keep trying?" He said because we love eachother, and he could never trust another woman, (so I need to basically, in so many words,) earn his trust back.<BR>Call it greedy, but I HATE seeing the pain in his face. I HATE knowing that I'm the source of his pain, and forever will be. <BR>We read the posts of other's still struggling through their emotions months and years later. We read how some wake up every morning still thinking about it.It is reallt discouraging.<BR>I don't want to live the rest of my life making my H feel pain for what I did. The guilt is so harsh, can't it be enough pain for the both of us???<BR>Sorry for being so mad and sad, I just want to vent. Please tell why I shouldn't give up though! Sherry

Tell me, how long has it been since he's known?

Mthrrhbard,<BR>That's an interesting name. Anyways he found out about 9-10 weeks ago. The A was 4 yrs ago. So for 4 yrs I've lived guilt and pain an dit's twice as ahrd when he wants to talk about it. Sherry

Dearest Keep Smiling:<P>As a BS, who constantly questioned her WS with questions such as, "Why did you do it? What was wrong with me?", etc., I think it's important to clarify to you that as a BS I WAS NEVER TRYING TO BLAME OR MAKE MY H FEEL LIKE LESS OF A HUMAN BEING...RATHER, I WAS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.<P>Sometimes, I do believe that betrayed spouses suffer far more guilt than we're ever given credit for. Guilt that we caused our spouse to seek another, guilt that we were lacking, guilt that we didn't do enough, guilt that we are not even lovable... The thoughts that constantly swim thru our heads are inconceivable. WE CARRY AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF GUILT.<P>One attempt to rid ourselves of some of the guilt, is to try to make sense of what went wrong. We desparately want to free ourselves from our own inflicted mental pain...<P>Sometimes, right or wrong, we need our wayward spouse to accept some of our pain. And, as selfish as it sounds, it is very helpful to the BS when the WS takes ownership for what they did. (Just as I've read WS's post on how helpful it is to them for the BS to admit that they weren't always there for the WS).<P>I seriously doubt that your H wants you to "give up and declare him the winner." However, perhaps he simply needs to hear, "I'm sorry for being the source of such intense pain,"...one more time.<P>It's really not about winning, or needing to be "right"...it's about understanding the big picture-- for all of us.<P>Peace, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20

Ok, so for you, it's already been 4 years of hell, but you chose that path. You could have told him four years ago and since he's willing to forgive and rebuild, you most likely would have been well on your way to a bigger and better marriage.Unfortunately, he's just beginning to deal with this and you want to be done with it. But you must remember that you chose for it to be this way by not telling for so long. No is not the time to be focused on how you feel but how he feels, this is all new to him. It takes a good year before most BS stop thinking about the A all the time and he's only known for 2 1/2 months! You've got to change your expectations if you're going to honestly try to give this a shot. He can't just hurry up his process of dealing with betrayal just because you are on a different timeline. He had no choice in that. Stop thinking about how bad you feel and focus your energies on making him feel better. Don't try to minimize his pain just because you feel awful. He'll be done with it when he is done with it.<P>If it gets to a point where he is punishing you, becoming emotionally abusive by shoving it in your face in it on a daily basis and degrading you for your mistake then there is a problem and unless it gets fixed you probably won't be able to live like that forever. However, if he's simply sad because everything he thought he had, has been ripped away from him against his will, then I think you best hunker down for a rocky ride because recovery isn't easy.It takes BS a good while to process the loss, grieve for it, learn from it and put it away.

Keep Smiling,<P>Let me tell you why you should not give up...because that will not make the pain go away!!! Leaving your H will not get rid of his pain, it will only add to it. The 2 of you have so much more hope than most of the people on this board because the 2 of you both WANT it to work. What's done is done, and you cannot change the past. But you can learn from your mistakes and have a better future.<P>You want to take his pain away...tell him how very sorry you are and how much you love him and want to be happy with him. Answer the questions he may have. Start meeting his needs and let him know what your needs are so he can meet yours. And, of course, KEEP SMILING!!! It will get easier and you will be happier.<P>Heck

Ohmy Marie,<BR>I can not understand how you can carry such guilt when it's the WS who took action. I guess I hear what your saying but, i'm not comprhending it. I think that the BS is so strong for not letting them stoop so low as infidality, and being able to stay with someone they love who hurts them. My H thinks he is weak for letting it happen, for not being there when I needed him. This makes me feel even more guilty.<P>mthrrhbard,<BR>I would have told him years sooner, but I thought for sure he would have left me. In fact I never told him until he found out on his own. I feel better now that he knows, but I never was ready to face the guilt and pain.It's discouraging reading what you wrote on it taking about a year to heal. I love him deeply and I hate seeing him hurt like this.Your right on the dot when you say everthing he had, has been riped away. He has metion this before.<BR>I do anwser his questions, it's just some days I can't handle it. What's your advice when I'm having a day where I can't bear this or anything else?<P>Heck,<BR>I just want to tell you as I was reading these post's with my H, I was crying on the inside.Then I got to the part where you said to tell him sorry, So I turned to him as said it and we both started crying.Thanks for being so positve, i really need that.<P>Thanks guys,<BR>I look forward to your advice, Please keep up the good work. Sherry <BR>

It can become a very loving and intimate thing for the both of you if you express your inbility to discuss things when you are having a difficult time. If he hears you say how badly you feel and that you just can't bear it at the moment then he's reassured that you haven't forgotten his pain even though you can't discuss it with him at the moment he's needing it. When this happens, be sure to offer an alternate time for the discussion he's requested and then stick to it. This way he'll learn to trust that you are willing to give him what he needs and that you aren't just putting him off indefinitely. It gives hope where refusal to talk and discuss brings despair.<P>It takes about a year if you read posts on recovery. I do not think I am exaggerating in any way in that estimate. That isn't to say that we are constantly overwhelmed by it all the time, just that it takes a good year of rebuilding the marriage and rebuilding the trust and positive interactions before the bulk of the pain is gone.

My H posts here as well so I don't have to hide anything from him. A whole year...I hope it flies by. I usually post under recovery, but I thought I'd post this here. I haven't seen your name before, Do you always post under GQ? You give great advice, so please don't stop.

KS,<P>I think you are viewing this all wrong. First, the person that can help you most when you are feeling down is your H. He needs to know when things overwhelm you. I know it doesn't sound fair that HE has to help YOU through this, but that is the way it works. <P>He will also face triggers that will get him down. You need to be the one that helps HIM.<P>Are you getting the idea? You two are a team and it is time to start acting like one. As K has said when he found out his W was pregnant with OM's baby, "This was an OPPORTUNITY for me to show her how much I loved her." <P>Now that is love in my book. But this is an opportunity for the both of you to become much closer and become the team you should have always have been.<P>Yes, it takes at least a year. Harley claims it really takes two years to fully recover. But, it is a small fraction of you live and your married life.<P>I suggest you read SKM's story about her recovery. It will reveal many things that have been mentioned to you. Just click on her story. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007743.html" TARGET=_blank> SKM's Chronicles </A><P>Keep going. Divorce will hurt him even more at this point since he has decided to try and help rebuild the marriage.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi KS,<P>In response to your question: "Why Shouldn't I throw in the flag???"<P>Because you still have to bend down, pick it up and put it back in it's place. See throwing in the flag is not the end. It is 2 steps backward from where you are now without any guarantees that it will be better the next time with someone else. You have history here with your H, you have memories with him some good and some bad. You know each other better than anyone else. You know each other's faults and good points. So in actuality, you stand a greater change of success with someone you know as well as yourself than with a stranger. That is what the OP is a stranger who is trying to be a friend. <P>What do we tell children about befriending a stranger? In whom do we teach our children to trust a stranger or a friend/relative? If these OPs are not good enough for our children, yet our spouses are, why should we throw that away for them and ourselves? <P>JMHO,<BR>L.

Dear KS:<P>Why not throw in the towel? Because you love each other. If the questions get too much take a one half hour break agree to this in advance. Allow a period of time for discussion but allow each of you a break to release to tension.<P>POJA this with a signal like a hug and an ILY but it is too emotionally draining for me now. This shows care and concern you both have for each other.<P>The history you and your H have together cannot be replaced by another relationship and if there is love keep adding to it.<P>My best to you and your H and prayers for you healing in your marriage.

JL,<BR>Thanks so much. We are a team then we can conquer anything! Some days are so hard, and we are having a rough week. I just hate seeing him hurt so bad. But everybody gives us hope even though it may take us a year or two.My H was trying to push it so hard to just hurry and heal, And I can't go that fast.<P>Orchid,<BR>I love hearing from you, you always have positive things to say. I just get to a point where I feel that I can't do this anylonger. It is so draining. I feel like a worhtless person when I talk about the A. He always wants to know the details and that makes me think more about what i did wrong and how I can never make it up to him. Seeing him in such pain makes me feel worse about myself. How can I help him if I feel so terrible about myself? <P>WMIW,<BR>Thanks for your suggestion, the only problem is it's brought up at different times, sometimes in the middle of the night, sometimes right after sex. I guess I have a problem all the time with it, but ecspecially when I want to sleep or relax in the moment of love. Thanks for your prayer we definatley need them. Sherry

KS,<BR> Thank you for the compliment. I'm an old timer, who's been here almost 2 years now if you count the time I lurked before first posting. I don't post a whole lot, but when I do I do so here and on the recovery board. Listen to JL he is a wise man and has been here a long time too.<P> My own H was very afraid that he'd have to live with his mistake hanging over his head for the rest of his life. I've truly forgiven him in every sense of the word and we have a brand new marriage that is what I always dreamed it should have been, but it still took me a long time to process the trauma. It was well worth the effort on both our parts. Your mistake is just that, a mistake. You now have the opportunity to use it to make big changes and build something strong and wonderful. All the best to you.

Hi Keep Smiling,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>WMIW,<BR>Thanks for your suggestion, the only problem is it's brought up at different times, sometimes in the middle of the night, sometimes right after sex. I guess I have a problem all the time with it, but ecspecially when I want to sleep or relax in the moment of love. Thanks for your prayer we definatley need them. Sherry<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Sherry, I just wanted to pick up on this one reply you gave. I may have missed something with this one so if I did I apologize.<P> One thing I wanted was to know ALL the details. I mean ALL the details. I felt that I could not forgive what I did not know about, and I wanted to forgive ALL. My W fought this tooth and nail. Told me some of the very things you are saying. Right down to feeling so bad that I felt TERRIBLE about hearing what she said. <P> The thing is, is that I really did need to hear all those things. It hurt like HEll. But it meant so much to me that I would have left had she not told me those things. She did not beleive me when I told her it would be ok. She thought and still does have fears that I will use it all against her. Which could not be further from the truth.<P> We still have so many problems that I don't know what will happen next week. But for today we are working towards the salvation of our marriage. <P> You have held the pain of what happened for a very long time. Please understand that for SEM it is like yesterday. It will get better for the both of you if you keep fighting. It won't happen over night as you know. But why throw away all the time YOU have already put into recovery. Give SEM the time and I know you won't be sorry. But, for what ever reason he needs your help more than anything right now. Please be there for him and give that help for a little longer.<P> jd<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Keep Smiling:<BR><B>JL,<BR>Orchid,<BR>I love hearing from you, you always have positive things to say. I just get to a point where I feel that I can't do this anylonger. It is so draining. I feel like a worhtless person when I talk about the A. He always wants to know the details and that makes me think more about what i did wrong and how I can never make it up to him. Seeing him in such pain makes me feel worse about myself. How can I help him if I feel so terrible about myself? <P>Sherry</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Sherry,<P>Thank you for your kind response. I would like to address your questions from a BS perspective. Like your H, I love my spouse dearly. The questions he asks is because he doesn't know or needs reassurance. I need those things also. You need to remember that we (the BS) were not present at the events of the A nor for the most part aware of what let us to the A as it was being formed. <P>Therefore we are in the dark for the most part. Please let me share an illustration with you. When I learned of the A, I felt as if I was thrown into a very dark dark room. No light eminated from anywhere. In there room were voices and obstacles places irractically. I was not alone in that dark and cold room. No my son was there with me. I held him in my arms knowing that to stay still meant death. We needed to keep moving. But where, how, what and why were all questions in my mind. How did we get here, where are we, what did we do and why are we in this dark room? I called out for my H, all I could hear were snickers and snears, verbal abuse, my name and character being bashed about me. Two people laughing at me and my son. I recognized one of the voice's, it was my H. Yet he sounded so cold and mean. Not the loving man I knew. Not even the nice man I knew. Then there was another voice a woman's voice. Soft and sultry when speaking to him but crude, rude and vulgar when addressing me and my son. <P>I wanted to run, run out of that room but boulders, boxes, hard and soft obstacles of all shapes and sizes were around me, but I could not see them to navigate my way. I stumbled many times (LB'd), I called out for help, I had anxiety attacks, sleepless nights, nightmares and all the while they continued to plan their future and laugh at me. <P>Sherry, this is how I actually felt when the A was discovered. I stayed in this way for many months (about 5 months). My H tried to come home but the emotional tie was strong. My H is still trying to break free from her grip but it is hard. <P>Sherry, we are still in shock, feel abandoned and betrayed. It will take time for both of you to heal. In the meantime, be each others comfort. You are the one Sherry that can help your H heal. Your H is the one who can provide the reassurance of his love. H will be frustrated at times, provide reassurance. <P>Let him read this and SEM, you know where I am coming from, you need to provide reassurance to her also. OK? Even when you don't want to. Look past is the past, look toward the future. Know that the devil will try to break up your family, that is one of his primary aims today. Breaking up families. The Roman empire fell primarily due to the lack of family unity. Don't fall into that trap. <P>When you 2 start to have hurtful feelings toward each other, ask for help for us and each other. The other needs to be ready for the prepared remedy (talk to each other ahead of time of what to do in case of......). I let my H know when I am having an anxiety attack. He watches my hands and feet. My shoulders and arms then follow suite and go limp if the attack is getting worse. He holds me when I cry. He has not learned to say I love you yet, but he seems to be working on it. But you know what? Today, I want so badly to tell him to leave. Yes, Sherry, after all he is trying to do, I am still angry and want to tell him to leave. For me what I need right now is reassurance. My H is at work. If it gets too bad, I will call him. H can talk me through this. It is harder for a guy than a girl to talk through things. Our counselor told me that women have twice as much nerve connections for speech and communication than men (except for gay men which have the same amount as women) Hm....... So I needed to keep that in mind when setting expectations from my H. <P>If SEM is more proactive than that, count your blessings. I wish I had that support. So I am not telling you to write him off. I think you both have a gem in your hand that may be slightly damaged. Treat it with love, polish it, rub it, it will shine and show it's value because it's value is already there right in your hands. <P>Take Care and give each other a hug today.<BR>My best to the both of you,<BR>L.

Dear KS:<P>I am new to posting so I am usually terse in my writing style. What I meant with regards to the POJA was to set times and time limits on talking about the A. Start at say 1/2 hour and no longer every Wed night. If it gets intense take a break then get back to it. <P>Once the agreed upon time is up it is not mentioned (except in emergancies such as gross triggers). This means you are both best prepared for the discussions. Then the closeness of great sex is kept fun the way it should be.<P>There are so many situations on these boards that do not have two such committed people in repairing their marriage. Understand there will be good and bad days but your are both working together to make your marriage the best it can be.<P>Again I wish the best for you and your H.

Orchard,<BR>I'm so sorry to hear about your H's A. Your visual thought helps out alot. I'm a very visual person. It's interesting hoew you talk about the diamond, cause SEM says he feels like he gave my his heart when we got married. Then I threw his heart on the ground at the time of A, now I've picked it up and dusted it off, and try to massage it. He says " please put it in a safe place so it won't get damage again!" I like when he says that but it makes me feel bad.<P>Do you ever tell any of your friends or co-workers about the A, or what is going on between you. SEM tells his co-workers, not to make me look bad, but some have similar problems, and sometimes he needs to talk about it. He also told both of his parents. I wasn't upset that he told his father, but I'm hurt that he told his mother. He really didn't have a choice though, something one of us said, she started guessing about weird stuff, so he set her straight.<BR>I'm upset though, cause I think of her as the mother I never had, she has taught me alot, and I know She felt like I was the daughter she never had( she had all boys). So I hate to think that we may never have the same relationship, but maybe we still can, it's just a bad thought.<P>Do you ever ask the same questions over and over? SEM does, I guess he doesn't think I'm telling the truth, I don't know though.<P>WMIK,<BR>thanks for your suggestion, I may try this.And thanks for your wishes we need them.<P>Anyone can responde to my Questions. Thanks Sherry

I was very taken with your post. It's good for me to see the other side sometimes. Something I heard in a movie last night kind of hit me: When you absolutely, completely and totally love someone, when do you say "enough is enough?" The answer was "NEVER." I am trying so hard to keep that in mind. It sounds like you and your husband both love each other completely. It's funny, but my H was the WS and I see the expressions of pain and disgust from HIM that you said you see in your H (the BS, like me). I know without a shadow of a doubt that I love my H completely, absolutely and totally, so my thought is to never give up. The only problem is that now I don't feel at all like my H feels the same for me. You and your husband have the love you need. Are you in counseling? Is he? I think separate and joint counseling are so essential. My H waivers back and forth on this, and the only thing I can surmise from it is that he's really not ready to say whether he loves me and feels that our marriage is worth it or not. It makes me so sad. Winston Churchill in a speech once said "Never give up. Never never give up. Never never never give up." Ask God for healing each and every day.

Myownme,<BR>Your right, Don't ever give up. Everyone has been telling me this, so I'm going to tell it to everyone else starting with you.<BR>Yes we both are in counseling, we are getting a new affordable counsler this week. I think some people fear a counsler for many reasons if they have never gone to one. First, I think the feel that there is something wrong with them, and nobody wants to feel that. Secound, they fear the unknown. Third, maybe there afraid they may need to be put on drugs, and most people feel that they are weak then if they need drugs, even though a good part of the population takes them now a days. And many other reasons why they fear to go. <P>One guy from MB's who emails us says to hug each other everyday. Maybe you can try this. Tell him you love him cause we WS need to know that. Good luck. Sherry